THE GRIGG vs COLLINS DEBATE!

[tiger101]

Hello all... First time posting die hard Tigers fan been reading for a few months now but all this drama surrounding trade week was too tempting for me not to add my 2 cents.

I understand the disappointment that we didn't completely bend the blues over in regards to the trade but i have to trust that the club knows what its doing. We couldn't get both grigg and houli in the PSD and there was (and still is in the case of houli) a chance they would enter the national draft where it seems clear that fans would have been unhappy with anything higher than a 4th round pick selection of them but by then i am sure someone would have snapped them up. The club may also be targeting someone else with its PSD Selection.

Personally i would prefer Grigg over Collins as well. Our players for years have been too slight and easy to bump off the ball and Collins was the clear example of one of these players. Sure he had a touch of class but it was rarely displayed. He was injury prone and far to unaccountable to be playing in midfield. His best position was as a forward flanker but his defensive pressure was still poor and one day i would like to envisage Troy Taylor playing this role and being much more dangerous in the position. After 4 years he was still a fringe 22 player and one that i thought was dispensable. For me the worst case scenario is that Grigg becomes a fringe 22 (but i do believe he has a role in our best 22) player in which case the trade is a nill all draw.

I liked andy and though he busted his bum for the club but we need to get bigger and stronger in a very literal sense and i believe this trade will help with this process. So hello again to all anyone feel free to tell me how much they disagree i look forward to some good debate on these matters and the future of the RFC.

Morgan.

Welcome to the board Morgan, I have to agree with you about Grigg and Collin trade. Collin has had enough time to build a body and push into the 22. Unfortunately it hasnt turned out the best for him at Richmond.

[Penelope]

What a collosal cock up that is
Gone from a decent trade period to a crap one in one trade

Why?

You really need an explanation?
We had all the power in this trade yet we bent over the table and just "presented" to the Carlton Football Club

If both players were contracted and we didn't have Pick 2 in the PSD then it'd probably be a trade where it was a 50-50 or slight win of a trade to us, but that wasn't the scenario. We just folded, our negotiators are pee weak.

Yeah I would like an explaination, or i wouldnt have asked

I posted before why i think the deal is a fair one.

It suits our needs. Our needs are not to screw over another club just to satisfy the blood lust of the supporters.

You get a fair deal that gets you want you want, you take it.
No business can survive thinking otherwise.

Good ole deepthroat on BF reakons there is someone on their Radar for the PSD
RFC official said that hopefully they can keep pick 2 in the draft get another good player.

The difference is that you think it is a fair deal, others don't. For some reason you seem to think that opinion overrides all others.

The argument that Grigg has delivered more than Collins or that he has significantly more upside is pure opinion, not fact.
In their career, they both average about 17 possessions, 4 marks and Collins has an extra tackle per game.
As for the weight thing, I thought we were looking for elite kicks and outside mids - does Grigg or Bacher truly fit that profile?
Grigg has player 18 more games but is a year older and has a year more development under his belt.
Whose to say Collins won't put on 4 or 5 kilos next year, play 22 games and develop the engine required to play midfield.
On the flip side, Grigg might play 22 games, have an injury free run and improve his decision making to off set his average kicking.

There are all marginal arguments for or against this trade.

As for the negotiating a "fair deal" thing, honestly some people think they are part of the United Nations!!!!

I dont think my opinion that it is a fair deal over rides all others. So far no one has really put forward why it is not a fair deal so happy for that to be out there.
From your post it seems you think it a fair deal too?

Most of the angst here seems to be that we didnt bend Carlton over. Big deal. The club got what they wanted for something they were prepared to let go. that's all that matters.  

The idea of trading is to get what you want, not to screw over another club because your supporters hate them.

It's not about being like the united nations, it how things work in the real world.

[Francois Jackson]

there was no need to give carlton anything. carlton should get zip. they are a poohouse club who our club had a moral duty to do over 1 million percent.

spot on Ramps. We should not be dealing with these idiots at all.

After what they did to us over the Matheson deal we should have let Grigg Slip through to the PSD.

If this is Cameron's way of justifying his position then we are stuffed. I shake my head at some decisions this bloke makes.

[jezza]

The idea of trading is to get what you want, not to screw over another club because your supporters hate them.

Wrong. The idea is to get the best possible deal for your club.

Grigg for Collins if both were contracted, fair swap. Grigg uncontracted, Richmond with PSD pick 2, we could have done better. We should have done better.

[big tone]

there was no need to give carlton anything. carlton should get zip. they are a poohouse club who our club had a moral duty to do over 1 million percent.

spot on Ramps. We should not be dealing with these idiots at all.

After what they did to us over the Matheson deal we should have let Grigg Slip through to the PSD.

If this is Cameron's way of justifying his position then we are stuffed. I shake my head at some decisions this bloke makes.


[/quote

 It's not about screwing certain clubs, it's about improving ours!!!!! We need to stay focussed on that and not on petty vendettas.
Andrew is a skinny boy and of all people on here Daniel you recognise that more than most. No big loss

[Penelope]

The idea of trading is to get what you want, not to screw over another club because your supporters hate them.

Wrong. The idea is to get the best possible deal for your club.

Grigg for Collins if both were contracted, fair swap. Grigg uncontracted, Richmond with PSD pick 2, we could have done better. We should have done better.

What if we have other plans for PSD #2?

[Rodgerramjet]

Round 1 will be interesting, will Collins make the blues best 22 for the game?

[jezza]

What if we have other plans for PSD #2?

We don't tell Carlton that. And we get a better deal for Grigg.

[yellowandback]

The difference is that you think it is a fair deal, others don't. For some reason you seem to think that opinion overrides all others.

The argument that Grigg has delivered more than Collins or that he has significantly more upside is pure opinion, not fact.
In their career, they both average about 17 possessions, 4 marks and Collins has an extra tackle per game.
As for the weight thing, I thought we were looking for elite kicks and outside mids - does Grigg or Bacher truly fit that profile?
Grigg has player 18 more games but is a year older and has a year more development under his belt.
Whose to say Collins won't put on 4 or 5 kilos next year, play 22 games and develop the engine required to play midfield.
On the flip side, Grigg might play 22 games, have an injury free run and improve his decision making to off set his average kicking.

There are all marginal arguments for or against this trade.

As for the negotiating a "fair deal" thing, honestly some people think they are part of the United Nations!!!!
[/quote]

I dont think my opinion that it is a fair deal over rides all others. So far no one has really put forward why it is not a fair deal so happy for that to be out there.
From your post it seems you think it a fair deal too?

Most of the angst here seems to be that we didnt bend Carlton over. Big deal. The club got what they wanted for something they were prepared to let go. that's all that matters.  

The idea of trading is to get what you want, not to screw over another club because your supporters hate them.

It's not about being like the united nations, it how things work in the real world.

[/quote]

The deal is average - nothing great nothing horrendous.

I would rather see the club develop the players they have instead of trying to re-develop other clubs.
Our strike rate on other clubs players is poor.

I'm not sure what experience you base "real world" for describing fairness in negotiating, "win win" always seemed a bit idealistic to me, I'd be interested to hear more.

[Mr Magic]

Take the emotion out of it people.

Have upgraded the player and not given up any picks.

Well done Tigers.

[Penelope]

What if we have other plans for PSD #2?

We don't tell Carlton that. And we get a better deal for Grigg.

of course you dont tell Carlton that. But they know you are still after Houli and you cant take both in the PSD. With that hanging over your head you lose a bit of your bargaining power.

AS it is we swapped a skinny HFF for a bigger bodied HBF /mid.

Now Essendon have to play ball or risk losing houli for nothing in the PSD.

How that pans out will depend on

1 Essendons attitude,
2 how desperate we are to keep PSD #2

[yellowandback]

Take the emotion out of it people.

Have upgraded the player and not given up any picks.

Well done Tigers.

Swapped one unproven player for another.

No it isn't, jury out.

[Penelope]

I'm not sure what experience you base "real world" for describing fairness in negotiating, "win win" always seemed a bit idealistic to me, I'd be interested to hear more.

In the business world most transactions are a win/win or pretty damn close.

Sure everyone wants to get the best deal they can, but it normally ends up with every one content. Sometimes one side will have an advantage for one reason or another, sometimes they press that advantage to the fullest sometimes they dont.

If someone tries to continually screw you over, you just don't deal with them.

[Mr Magic]

Hello all... First time posting die hard Tigers fan been reading for a few months now but all this drama surrounding trade week was too tempting for me not to add my 2 cents.

I understand the disappointment that we didn't completely bend the blues over in regards to the trade but i have to trust that the club knows what its doing. We couldn't get both grigg and houli in the PSD and there was (and still is in the case of houli) a chance they would enter the national draft where it seems clear that fans would have been unhappy with anything higher than a 4th round pick selection of them but by then i am sure someone would have snapped them up. The club may also be targeting someone else with its PSD Selection.

Personally i would prefer Grigg over Collins as well. Our players for years have been too slight and easy to bump off the ball and Collins was the clear example of one of these players. Sure he had a touch of class but it was rarely displayed. He was injury prone and far to unaccountable to be playing in midfield. His best position was as a forward flanker but his defensive pressure was still poor and one day i would like to envisage Troy Taylor playing this role and being much more dangerous in the position. After 4 years he was still a fringe 22 player and one that i thought was dispensable. For me the worst case scenario is that Grigg becomes a fringe 22 (but i do believe he has a role in our best 22) player in which case the trade is a nill all draw.

I liked andy and though he busted his bum for the club but we need to get bigger and stronger in a very literal sense and i believe this trade will help with this process. So hello again to all anyone feel free to tell me how much they disagree i look forward to some good debate on these matters and the future of the RFC.

Morgan.

Great post Mr Freeman.
Welcome btw.

[Mr Magic]

Swapped one unproven player for another.

No it isn't, jury out.

Grigg's recent form suggests currently he is a better player.