Sam Blease to Richmond

[Coach]

If Ben Reid, Alan Didak, H Shaw and a few others are C/B then we must barely have 10 blokes who could be better than a D.

[TigerLand]

Are you kidding me? Geelong and Collingwood not having any A Graders?

What do you call brownlow medalists Bartel and Swan? Norm Smith Pendlebury? Match winner Thomas? 25 time All Australian Full back Matthew Scarlett. Gary Ablett Jnr? Mircale worker Steve Johnson? Paul Chapman?

I've never heard so much crap in my life. A side full of B and C graders goes no where. If you want to support a team like that go support Essendon they have the perfect list for you.

Unbelievable. 

read the post again  before u go shooting from the hip Pope  i said 2 years ago for collingwood and geelong 6 years ago not now...

Point is dont be so hasty about A graders. Sometimes they take a while to shine and players u thought were just b graders can turn into matchwinning a-graders.  Which supporter 4 years ago thought swan would be elite? lol he was a deadset dribbler!!! Thomas I always rated but most thought he was nothing more than a flashy type, Cloke was considered a bust, Reid a dud who couldnt kick, Johnson a one trick pony, H.Shaw couldnt defend - i could go on and on, NOW MOST OF THEM ARE DEADSET A OR B+ GRADERS.

Geelong wanted to trade out Bartel, Kelly and Corey players who were ALL considered nothing more than solid one paced plodders Richmond rejected Bartel and Stevie J for Otto!!! lol. My point is sometimes with some patience you can unearth matchwinners from within that you may have thought werent there.

 lets get in more solid contributors bc its easier to find solid performers than out and out matchwinners in every draft.

cheers Y&B at least some understood my point 

Apologies for mis reading the post.

I see your point and understand it and has merit. However it's heavily reliant on development and timing. We pick  up more depth in D graders that have potential to improve it can backfire.

Problem 1: We pick up a 18yo kid D grader that could develop into a potential B, fails to develop properly - Connors, Gourdis, Jackson, Edwards (These are all mid round draft picks that have failed to develop).

Problem 2: We pick up 18yo kid that takes 5 years to develop. In 5 years time Brett Deledio will be 30, arguably the best player on the list. Your premiership window is so very small. This is what happened to St.Kilda. They had there draft picks then instead of putting more quality into the list they went with D graders and C graders and hoped to win a flag off reliance on there A Graders and hoped the D Graders would either be carried or lift/develop.
The A Graders get older and your left with a poo list.

You need to keep flooding your list with as much A grade potential as possible. Just my opinion. 

[TigerLand]

this is gold and shows just how little some understand what actually is needed.
lets see
nick maxwell c
n brown  c
a toovey barely a c.
h obrien c/ b
b reid c/b
h shaw c/b
s wellingham c
d swan b yep i dont think him an elite footballer.
b johnson c
a didak c used to be borderline b/a
t cloke b/a im reluctant to place him in the elite bracket for two reasons.
l ball c last two yrs b
d beams c/bs
c dawes c/b
s sidebottom c
d jolly b
s pendulbury a
d thomas b/a
t goldsack c
l brown c/bs
b mccaffer c
j blair c
thats the 2010 premiership side. it may be a little harsh but people are not grasping what really needs to be done. ffs if we can get our hands on 22 elite players im all for it but it doesnt work that way.
at richmond we are riddled with chronically deficient players or b/s, get em out and replace em with c and b rated players and we will get better.with the potential a graders we have we could go to the last day in september. seems we not only over rate our own but others as well. we potentially have more a graders than collingwood already. cutting b/s players building some depth and importantly good structure these are the things we lack in. lets go into games like collingwood with no b/s players in the team.
its not the strength of your top 6 that wins you games but the strength of the bottom 6 and what depth you can build.

Won't work.

Delisting poo and replacing with poo just wont work. We need 2/3 more A graders. When that is done then worry about replacing the bottom tier.

Need a A grade ruckman. Need an A grade defender and need 1 more A grade midfielder.

Simple as that.

Waste of time delisting our D graders and trying to replace them for free in a weak draft and state leagues. It's hit or miss. Robs peter to pay Paul.

Get a A Grade midfielder in free agency. Get an A grade ruckman by trading what has currency our first round pick, Foley, Morton, Edwards, compo pick. Anything. Trades don't have to be scary.

Can't see replacing our bottom tier with another bottom tier will change anything.

[10 FLAGS]

It's your foot soldiers that get you to the granny, but often it is the cream that wins it for you.

This is 100% spot on. Either way for where our list is at we need to find at least 3 more A graders not currently not on our list.

[the claw]

Are you kidding me? Geelong and Collingwood not having any A Graders?

What do you call brownlow medalists Bartel and Swan? Norm Smith Pendlebury? Match winner Thomas? 25 time All Australian Full back Matthew Scarlett. Gary Ablett Jnr? Mircale worker Steve Johnson? Paul Chapman?

I've never heard so much crap in my life. A side full of B and C graders goes no where. If you want to support a team like that go support Essendon they have the perfect list for you.

Unbelievable. 

read the post again  before u go shooting from the hip Pope  i said 2 years ago for collingwood and geelong 6 years ago not now...

Point is dont be so hasty about A graders. Sometimes they take a while to shine and players u thought were just b graders can turn into matchwinning a-graders.  Which supporter 4 years ago thought swan would be elite? lol he was a deadset dribbler!!! Thomas I always rated but most thought he was nothing more than a flashy type, Cloke was considered a bust, Reid a dud who couldnt kick, Johnson a one trick pony, H.Shaw couldnt defend - i could go on and on, NOW MOST OF THEM ARE DEADSET A OR B+ GRADERS.

Geelong wanted to trade out Bartel, Kelly and Corey players who were ALL considered nothing more than solid one paced plodders Richmond rejected Bartel and Stevie J for Otto!!! lol. My point is sometimes with some patience you can unearth matchwinners from within that you may have thought werent there.

 lets get in more solid contributors bc its easier to find solid performers than out and out matchwinners in every draft.

cheers Y&B at least some understood my point 

Apologies for mis reading the post.

I see your point and understand it and has merit. However it's heavily reliant on development and timing. We pick  up more depth in D graders that have potential to improve it can backfire.

Problem 1: We pick up a 18yo kid D grader that could develop into a potential B, fails to develop properly - Connors, Gourdis, Jackson, Edwards (These are all mid round draft picks that have failed to develop).

pppffftt and im told to do his research. yes im nit picking.dan connors 4th rnd selection 58 how many on average go after pick 50.gourdis a psd pick taken after the nd was complete. he was then rookied.
jackson an early 4th rnd pick  taken at 53. and edwards the only earlyish pick among them a 2nd rounder at 26 and a waste. some of us have been saying it for 5 yrs.

what do we expect from 4th rnd picks and junior psd picks. 1 in 3 or worse to  to make it maybe.
if people think every pick or every player bought to the club will make it are kidding themselves. it takes time and hard work to build a decent list. it would not be uncommon to go thru 3 or 4 players gradually upgrading on each player to fill a spot on the list.
 we only have guaranteed 1 first rnd pick each yr and we only get 1 2nd rounder. with these two you hope for at least a good player thru to a maximum  elite. then other things come into it. deep draft shallow draft. etc.
 our better credentialled players are actually performing to a high level but they cant carry so many b/s players.and with the load at times they drop away dramatically as well.

no one in his right mind would argue you dont need A graders.but A graders are the thin edge of the wedge. real improvement comes from upgrading b/s players for plain old capable core list players and if need be the core list player for a very good player,  and of course you try and get the odd very good to elite player with them.

[the claw]

lets see now. a hypothetical 

we use pick 14 and get a very good long term player.
we use pick 35ish and get a good long term player.
we use pick 53 and get a 50/50 like helbig who turns out to be a good player.
so far so good well done francis.

we take maric in the psd and he improves our ruck stocks marginally. we do not off load any ruckmen.
we take someone like carnell late nd  for say jackson/nason/ webberley. 
we take a f/s in morris late for farmer.
we take a  b wilkes late for mcguane 
and if we are looking to give a kid a go rookie list 20yo  tom lee a kpp from subiaco.
want an upgrade on miller go and get22yo callum wilson for nixs.

i could go on and on straight away the bar is raised those taken may need to be upgraded themselves in two yrs time  but the list improves. we are not going to bring in 6 new players from the draft and have them all make it. maximise the nd early and hopefully get quality. and actually upgrade on players we cut with later picks.

[tiger till i die]

bf poster said he is great mates and has no intention of leaving

well done pope

[Mr Magic]

Swan not elite?

If he's a B grader we must have a few who don't even figure in the alphabet.

[Smokey]

Swan not elite?

If he's a B grader we must have a few who don't even figure in the alphabet.

   Sad but true.   

[Willy]

The Claw has clearly down-graded every player one letter in the alphabet to sound like a ruthless hard-ass.

Swan is undoubtedly an A-Grader. So is Cloke, on this year's form.

[tigtuff12]

Swan not elite?

If he's a B grader we must have a few who don't even figure in the alphabet.

^ amen - we've got blokes who are getting into the "chinese alphabet" type categories....and that is a LOOOOONG alphabet...

[Mr Magic]

So is Cloke, on this year's form.

Indeed.

Actually Travis has been bloody brilliant this year. His contested marking outstanding and his BIGGEST weakness set shot kicking vast improved.

With Jack's injuries this year he is clearly the number one genuine KPF in the game IMO.

Credit to him. Scumbag.

[the claw]

Swan not elite?

If he's a B grader we must have a few who don't even figure in the alphabet.

hmm B grader = very good.  yep hes not elite. theres got to be without going thru teams lists at least 25 30  players who perform similar roles id take in front of him. hes heavily reliant on those around him and his pace. he  is only average with his use  and has failed pretty badly in two gfs.collingwood have plenty of so called elite players who fail when they have to play on an opponent and are made accountable.
seems to me far too many put players into the elite category without thinking.if i were to listen to most posters on here every other player going around would be elite.

[the claw]

The Claw has clearly down-graded every player one letter in the alphabet to sound like a ruthless hard-ass.

Swan is undoubtedly an A-Grader. So is Cloke, on this year's form.

hmm while i disagree on swan. just where did i place cloke. oh i see at b/a   which indicates to me ive borderline very good to elite. for me cloke will have to string a few  yrs of top notch footy together to be called elite.
i have to laugh players have 1 or 2 outstanding yrs and they are suddenly elite. true champions of the game find a way to do it yr in yr out.they stand up and lead from the front when its most needed.

[Hellenic Tiger]

I actually agree with Claw Cloke has had a great year but is a B bordering on A.

Apart from his first 40 minutes in the GF where he kicked 3 goals after that he barely touched it for at least 2 quarters and by then the momentum had swung well and truly in Geelong's favour and his impact was minimal.

Another two years of consistent H/A footy and he might be called elite but true champions of the game do it in finals and Cloke in finals has done Jack Skata at this stage of his career.