No Excuses

[mightytiges]

That isn't making excuses it stating where I believe our list is depth wise. I think some people are grossly over rating our list. Personally I don't think it is a strong as it needs to be. Our bottom 15 are a long way off IMHO

TBH I look at our current list & can only name 5 players that would get games in the teams that played off in this years GF - harsh but realistic & that tells me something about our list.

Well said WP.

Our list is still very ordinary. I would go as far as saying it's still bottom 5 material which won't be a popular comment. Outside our top half-dozen or so our list falls away badly. Until we can at least be competitive against the top sides rather than witches hats, let alone challenge these sides and knock one or two off then we can start talking about finals. 2012 should still be about development as our list is still very young and our senior core age bracket (23-28) is still very thin and lacking sufficient A-grade class. When our top two mids are just 22 and 20 y.o then that says we are still a year or two off finals.

[WA Tiger]

What decade or year do you think we should actually move forward then WP?????

To the rest of you, amazing to say the least, the players and the coach are saying that we should not be using excuses such as being a young inexperienced side and having to stand up next year and you still cant get on board with it...

When will you all stop making excuses.....

I am not making excuses WAT

I want to see improvement - what that brings come the end of the season I really don't know. If it means we finish with 11 wins and we miss the finals is that failure = NOPE

Our list still has alot of gaps in it - Depth is a massive problem if we have a horror run with injury the we will struggle. If we don't well who knows what the end result will be

And BTW while the words are there that there will be no more excuses. Nowhere has the coach or any players said we are going to play finals. If you listen to Dimma's presser last week he said again it's about improving

But to make it simply for you:

Do I want us to play finals = YES

Do I think we can make finals = YES if everything falls our way. And I would think that would be the case for most teams who finished 9th to 13th in 2011.

But if by injury we lose 3 of our best 6 we are in big trouble, if we lose 4-6 of our mid range players for extneded periods again we are in trouble because simple we dont' have the depth. Hell you said exactly the same thing in another thread about our lack of depth

That isn't making excuses it stating where I believe our list is depth wise. I think some people are grossly over rating our list. Personally I don't think it is a strong as it needs to be. Our bottom 15 are a long way off IMHO

TBH I look at our current list & can only name 5 players that would get games in the teams that played off in this years GF - harsh but realistic & that tells me something about our list.

I will repeat if absolutely everything goes our way in 2012 then yes we are chance of finals but things get de-railed and it's highly unlikely. Excuses? No just a realistic assessment of where are right now

Bloody hell WP really, we have been crapping on about improvement since Wallace took over, the improvement days are over....We need to start focusing on winning and playinig finals.

I couldnt care less if they mentioned finals or not, no more excuses is what they said, that either means finals or acceptance of the mediocre crap we have been dishing up over the years. Seriously, improvement, does that mean we should have beaten teams like Port last year in Darwin, the Saints, GC and a few other games we completely blew.

If you think we only have 5 players that can take us into a GF in 5 years we may as well give up because in 5 years those players will be at the end of their careers and then what........the rebuilding starts again and the devlopment and the games into young legs.

Honestly no excuses, people will agree with your comments over mine, I just wont continue to accept mediocracy like the rest of you do. I am not going to keep saying year after year after year that we are rebuilding. the top teams don't make that excuse and neither should we, they are continually successful because of the way they plan the future. Hell we have been doing that for 20+ years.

We sould have played finals this year but completely lost the plot in the winable games.

Finals in 2012 or failure. Thats the way I look at it, if we go into round 1 and get smashed to pieces by the Blues or lose again to PA and the GC who has rebuilt, improving or is building better......

[mightytiges]

WAT why should we have played finals this year?  We never once sat in the top 8 throughout the season, our percentage never was higher than 93% and our record against the top 5 sides was L20 (-56 for 3 qtrs), L63, L71, L103, L62 (same margin at HT) and L57. Finals-worthy sides don't get flogged by every top side nor do they lose to the bottom 2 sides.

Now as a young side we may still be inconsistent next year and we may still drop games we should win  but I agree that for us to show improvement in 2012 we need to start beating boggie sides like St Kilda and the Doggies who are both on the slide. We also need to show we can be competitive against the top sides both in general play and on the scoreboard over four quarters which will also improve our percentage.

[WilliamPowell]

like Port last year in Darwin, the Saints, GC and a few other games we completely blew.

If you think we only have 5 players that can take us into a GF in 5 years we may as well give up because in 5 years those players will be at the end of their careers and then what........the rebuilding starts again and the devlopment and the games into young legs.

Geesh I wish you'd read what I wrote

I said "TBH I look at our current list & can only name 5 players that would get games in the teams that played off in this years GF"

Exactly where did I say "If you think we only have 5 players that can take us into a GF in 5 years"

Tell me how the hell you got the "take us into a GF in 5 years" bit 

I clearly said that we have 5 players that would get games at C'wood & Geelong (and btw that's Catchin, Deledio, Martin, Riewoldt & Newman) now - no where did I mention in 5 years. I used that example to highlight how bad our lack of depth is. At a minimum you want at least 10 who would be walk up starts at other Clubs. Facts are we don't have that, yes we are building that but if you think we have that right you are kidding yourself

Simply our list isn't that good. WAT you and others go on about the duds on the list but then you expect the very same list to play finals. So are you expecting the "duds" to carry us to finals because I've got a newsflash for you our top 5 plus our top 10 mid range players cannot do it on their own

Honestly no excuses, people will agree with your comments over mine, I just wont continue to accept mediocracy like the rest of you do. I am not going to keep saying year after year after year that we are rebuilding. the top teams don't make that excuse and neither should we, they are continually successful because of the way they plan the future. Hell we have been doing that for 20+ years.

Got to say it really irks me when people throw up this accepting mediocrity crap. You call it accepting mediocrity I call it being realistic regarding our list. Trust me I'm sick of not playing finals but I also don't want to take any short cuts. For the first time in 30 years we aren't taking short cuts

I will repeat what I've said twice but you seem to ignore and that is if everthing falls our way (read very few injuries and playing blokes carrying injuries) then we are a chance to play finals.

Cop injuries to our top players we are going to struggle. Just look at Riewoldt in 2011 when he played with injury for most of the year and the impact it had on us and his output. Simply we are not strong enough depth wise to carry that now.

Can I make it any clearer

You talk about top teams not making excuses but the very team that's won 3 of the last 5 Grand Finals did re-build back on the mid 2000's under Thompson and look at them now. Ditto Collingwood - they rebuilt under Malthouse and look where they are now (recommend you read his book it explains how to do it really well).

 

Finals in 2012 or failure.

So what you are saying is it wouldn't matter how many games we win unless we play finals the years a failure? What happens if we win 12 games and still miss the finals, then that's a failure? We win lose one of top 3 players for the majority of the year, win say 11 games and miss the finals on % that's a failure too....

[WA Tiger]

like Port last year in Darwin, the Saints, GC and a few other games we completely blew.

If you think we only have 5 players that can take us into a GF in 5 years we may as well give up because in 5 years those players will be at the end of their careers and then what........the rebuilding starts again and the devlopment and the games into young legs.

Geesh I wish you'd read what I wrote

I said "TBH I look at our current list & can only name 5 players that would get games in the teams that played off in this years GF"

Exactly where did I say "If you think we only have 5 players that can take us into a GF in 5 years"

Tell me how the hell you got the "take us into a GF in 5 years" bit 

I clearly said that we have 5 players that would get games at C'wood & Geelong (and btw that's Catchin, Deledio, Martin, Riewoldt & Newman) now - no where did I mention in 5 years. I used that example to highlight how bad our lack of depth is. At a minimum you want at least 10 who would be walk up starts at other Clubs. Facts are we don't have that, yes we are building that but if you think we have that right you are kidding yourself

Simply our list isn't that good. WAT you and others go on about the duds on the list but then you expect the very same list to play finals. So are you expecting the "duds" to carry us to finals because I've got a newsflash for you our top 5 plus our top 10 mid range players cannot do it on their own

Honestly no excuses, people will agree with your comments over mine, I just wont continue to accept mediocracy like the rest of you do. I am not going to keep saying year after year after year that we are rebuilding. the top teams don't make that excuse and neither should we, they are continually successful because of the way they plan the future. Hell we have been doing that for 20+ years.

Got to say it really irks me when people throw up this accepting mediocracy crap. You call it accepting mediocracy I call it being realistic regarding our list. Trust me I'm sick of not playing finals but I also don't want to take any short cuts. For the first time in 30 years we aren't taking short cuts

I will repeat what I've said twice but you seem to ignore and that is if everthing falls our way (read very few injuries and playing blokes carrying injuries) then we are a chance to play finals.

Cop injuries to our top players we are going to struggle. Just look at Riewoldt in 2011 when he played with injury for most of the year and the impact it had on us and his output. Simply we are not strong enough depth wise to carry that now.

Can I make it any clearer

You talk about top teams not making excuses but the very team that's won 3 of the last 5 Grand Finals did re-build back on the mid 2000's under Thompson and look at them now. Ditto Collingwood - they rebuilt under Malthouse and look where they are now (recommend you read his book it explains how to do it really well).

 

Finals in 2012 or failure.

So what you are saying is it wouldn't matter how many games we win unless we play finals the years a failure? What happens if we win 12 games and still miss the finals, then that's a failure? We win lose one of top 3 players for the majority of the year, win say 11 games and miss the finals on % that's a failure too....

Simple fact of the matter it seems to me WP is that some Richmond people accept underperforming and mediocracy (like it or not) at this club and seem to think that improvement, which is a word I hate, because we have used it for long is the key.

I am realistic but wouldnt you say with the players we have we should be playing finals, honestly, or are we just going to improve again next next year, we actually should of played finals last year.

Anyway.....

[Penelope]

bottom line is we need to improve to make the finals.

if we don't improve we wont make the finals.
if we don't improve enough, we wont make the finals.
if we do improve enough, we will make the finals.

[WA Tiger]

bottom line is we need to improve to make the finals.

if we don't improve we wont make the finals.
if we don't improve enough, we wont make the finals.
if we do improve enough, we will make the finals.

My point is for how many more years and decades are we going to improve for????????? Seems to be the word we have used in conjunction with develop for the past 30 years.....WHEN is it going to work???????

[Penelope]

WAT, no matter how much you jump up and down or hold your breath until you turn blue, it wont change were we are at.

What has happened in the last 30 years does not change where we are at.

were we at is a long way behind the top sides and that gap cannot be bridged overnight.

so, whether you like or not, we must improve to bring the success we all crave.

dont set yourself up for season of grief with unrealistic expectations, it will only bring you...grief ( which you will want to share with the rest of us after every loss  )

As for how many more years are we going to improve for? Who knows, but we havn't actually seen much improvement in the last decade at all.

When is it going to work? who knows?

[WilliamPowell]

Simple fact of the matter it seems to me WP is that some Richmond people accept underperforming and mediocracy (like it or not) at this club and seem to think that improvement, which is a word I hate, because we have used it for long is the key.

WAT - you seem to think I will accept whatever results get dished up. I wont

Let me put it to you like this: we get pumped by the Blues in round 1 that's unacceptable. We lose to teams we should beat eg GC or Port Adelaide, that is unacceptable.

But:

We start beating teams we are on par with rather than having them continue to own us and beat us in important games then I reckon that's improvement.

Against the top teams what is acceptable is being able to compete against them rather than getting thumped by them like we did this year.

Sorry but to me we do that and we've improved and do that and it gets us to the finals then great

I am realistic but wouldnt you say with the players we have we should be playing finals, honestly, or are we just going to improve again next next year, we actually should of played finals last year.

Again are you seem to be ignoring what I wrote because it doesn't suit your argument or am I not making it clear enough  but I think I've answered this

Which part of this doesn't make sense or isn't clear? I will repeat it for the 4th time

"I will repeat what I've said twice but you seem to ignore and that is if everthing falls our way (read very few injuries and playing blokes carrying injuries) then we are a chance to play finals.

Cop injuries to our top players we are going to struggle. Just look at Riewoldt in 2011 when he played with injury for most of the year and the impact it had on us and his output. Simply we are not strong enough depth wise to carry that now. "

I would think this clearly means that yes I think that we can play finals if and it is a mssive if everything falls our way especially injury wise but IMHO we cop a couple of bad injuries to any of top line players then we have no chance

What is interesting is you refused to answer my question(s)

My point is for how many more years and decades are we going to improve for????????? Seems to be the word we have used in conjunction with develop for the past 30 years.....WHEN is it going to work???????

But isn't that part of the issue? For 30 years we've said we are "gunna" and as result gone around in circles with people chopping and changing their plans, promising to do one thing and then doing another. End result we've achieved zippo

It is only in the last 2 years we've actually seen the Club united as one, on the same page and actually look like they are prepared to see a plan (read rebuild) through. They've turned more than 50% of the list over and loaded it up with kids. Whether we like it or not kids take time to develop.

You are now saying that after 2 years you will only accept finals as improvement.

[Mr Magic]

Our biggest excuse is we still lack depth of quality.
An injury to a key player or two such a Cotchin, Deledio or Riewoldt will see us struggle to play finals again.
Sure we copped some injuries last year but they weren't core players.

[WA Tiger]

Why does it take clubs like Essendon, Carlton, Geelong, Hawthawn, Collingwood,and The Eagles (look at their resurgence) no time at all to play finals, no rebuilding, no excuses about development, no excuses...WHY, why cant we do it and stay there.

They pick players in the pick 30's & 40's draft range that are better than our top picks in the teens. they play finals.....we improve and develop, improve and develop and actually we get nowhere.

Look at the Eagles, what a prime example, now they went from botton 6 to top 4 in a season.......why cant we do that, because we accept the crap the team dishes up and the WC faithful dont, neither does Worsfold or the administration.

The WC Eagles will be looking to win the flag this year and we should be playing finals....simple as that!!!!

[YellowandBlackBlood]

The real problem is that whilst we will improve, so will other sides. We cannot expect Freo to cop the same number of injuries next year as they did this year. They will be bitterly disappointed if they don't. North are in the same boat as us and will have some extra new "home ground advantage" in Hobart. They are also looking to sneak in. Melbourne is also looking to improve and get in. And which team that made the 8 are going to slide? Probably not the top 4 and probably not Carlton. Out of the other three, Sydney are always competitive. The bombers look like the most vulnerable but then again they will be keen to improve with Watson, Dempsey and Winderlich playing more games next year and I heard that even the human disaster zone Gumbleton is having his best preseason yet. St Kilda may also be vulnerable....
So it is so difficult even if we do improve!

[WA Tiger]

The real problem is that whilst we will improve, so will other sides. We cannot expect Freo to cop the same number of injuries next year as they did this year. They will be bitterly disappointed if they don't. North are in the same boat as us and will have some extra new "home ground advantage" in Hobart. They are also looking to sneak in. Melbourne is also looking to improve and get in. And which team that made the 8 are going to slide? Probably not the top 4 and probably not Carlton. Out of the other three, Sydney are always competitive. The bombers look like the most vulnerable but then again they will be keen to improve with Watson, Dempsey and Winderlich playing more games next year and I heard that even the human disaster zone Gumbleton is having his best preseason yet. St Kilda may also be vulnerable....
So it is so difficult even if we do improve!

Thats dead right and every year it's the same, every team improves and plays finals or they do a year later and we are the bridesmaids AGAIN.......excuses every year......they get better and we just dont, thats why its finals this year or get used to to a middle of the pack bottom 8 team for another 30 years!!!

[yellowandback]

We should be aiming for top 4 next year, if the Eagles can do it, we can too. It is simply excuse making to think differently.
Bottom line, it is a mind set shift to finish top 4 next year......



































 

Can we get this thread back to the quality of page 1?
 

[Dubstep Dookie]

Essendon and St.Kilda are ripe for a HUUUUUUUUGELY enjoyable slide down the ladder next year. Oh yeah. As are Sydney IMO. North were no better than us last season, and we have more upside moving forward. Melbourne are overrated for mine.

There's plenty of room for us 5th-8th on the ladder.

Harden up and hold your resolve.