Author Topic: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)  (Read 2507 times)

Offline one-eyed

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The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« on: May 02, 2012, 03:20:12 AM »
The great ‘bottom out' myth

    Jon Ralph
    From: Herald Sun
    May 02, 2012


WHEN Melbourne turned it up against Geelong in Round 19 last year - resulting in that abominable 186 point loss - Demons supporters were entitled to label that performance as rock bottom.

Yet eight months on from that defeat and its turbulent fallout, Melbourne is probably even further than a premiership than it was back then.

Notwithstanding the fighting effort in the wet against St Kilda, the Demons are nowhere near the team of the decade they once hoped to be.

Tom Scully is gone, a raft of first-round picks are languishing, ruckman Mark Jamar is unsigned with multiple suitors, and a 0-11 start to the year is a likeihood rather than a possibility.

Yet up in Sydney, a Swans side with hardly a top-10 draft pick and a dozen recycled players is firming into premiership favouritism.

They don't promise, they just deliver.

As a reminder, the Demons haven't made the finals since 2006, and in fact have made September only 12 times since 1966.

Richmond hasn't played finals since 2001 with only two appearances in the last 29 seasons.

Sydney, which eschews the total rebuild and instead just concentrates on winning, has played 13 of the past 16 finals series, with another coming up.

They won the drought-breaking premiership in 2005 and just missed out in 2006. But even without those Grand Final performances, you get the feeling Sydney supporters would be satisfied with their lot in the past 20 years.

They front up every week knowing their side is a better than even chance of winning, or at least taking the game deep into the last term.

With that in mind, is the premiership dream over-rated for sides like Melbourne, prepared to suck up so many years of pain that might backfire anyway?

Yes, without that premiership dream there is no reason to play football.

But as the supporter of a lowly Victorian side, this supporter would much prefer a decade of sustained yet unfulfilled success than one season with a premiership then another nine years at the bottom of the table.

Geelong, Collingwood and Sydney have had the best of both worlds - sustained success and flags.

But Hawthorn is still the only side to bottom out and win a flag, and that was with several caveats attached.

They were able to get once-in-a-lifetime trades for Jon Hay, Jade Rawlings and Nathan Thompson, and pulled off a September heist against the odds.

Some clubs, such as Collingwood with Scott Pendlebury and Dale Thomas, have taken a lick of the cream, but what Melbourne is doing is not yet proven.

Being a supporter is about hope, but much more so about hope your side might fire a shot this week than win that flag after a five-year plan.

As Paul Roos said in Tuesday's Herald Sun, where is the guarantee of success given the slow, patient rebuild?

Those prepared to paint a rosy picture at Melbourne should consider the list, not the pipedream.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/expert-opinion/the-great-bottom-out-myth/story-fn6cisdj-1226344029612

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 09:33:28 AM »
Sydney has had a larger salary cap than melbourne no?

Offline YellowandBlackBlood

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 11:25:31 AM »
Err, how about Carlton (premiership contenders), WCE (premiership contenders), StKilda (formerly contenders - now probably past their window). As mentioned Collingwood bottomed out and picked up Penddles and Daisy and got Cloke through the the f/s rule. Geelong the other major power picked up the guy who should have been no.1 Selwood, Bartel was a top 10 pick from memory plus a plethora of f/s picks. Hawthorn was already mentioned.  So you see, the only team not to benefit by getting good picks is Sydney and as mentioned they have a significant Salary cap advantage.

So I cannot understand the article. We know it's no guarantee for success, but everybody that has recently had success or is now in contention has bottomed out at some point or at least had draft picks equivalent to bottoming out.
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gerkin greg

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 11:30:49 AM »
Swans captain was a pick 5  :shh

Offline one-eyed

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The myth of the AFL draft system (Australian)
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2012, 05:43:13 AM »
The myth of the AFL draft system

    by: Stephen Rielly
    From: The Australian
    May 05, 2012


THERE is, at the heart of the AFL draft system, a false premise: recruiting teenagers is both a precise exercise and one certain to raise low teams high. It is not true.

While drafting astutely is unquestionably important to success, nearly every premiership club of recent years - Geelong being an exception - has traded, as much as drafted, its way to the top.

Port Adelaide added experience from elsewhere to just about every line to win in 2004, just as Sydney did, with Craig Bolton, Barry Hall, Paul Williams, Nick Davis, Darren Jolly and Jason Ball, to succeed the following year.

Who could envisage Collingwood's triumph in 2010 without Jolly, Luke Ball and Leigh Brown? Even the Cats were captained in 2007 and 2009 by ex-Port Adelaide defender Tom Harley and led in the ruck by a former Tiger, Brad Ottens.

Drafting can explain some of Sydney's unbeaten start to this season but it cannot be fully understood without recognition of the importance of trading for Josh Kennedy, Shane Mumford, Rhyce Shaw, Ted Richards, Marty Mattner and Ben McGlynn over the years.
The draft is not science nor certain cure which, to an extent, is what Melbourne and Jack Watts tell us, if we want to listen.

The Demons gave themselves over to the idea of a draft-led recovery almost five years ago, when a time of relative success under Neale Daniher was coming to an end. Even allowing for the winters it requires to recruit and prepare a new generation, the Dees have been disappointing. Five rounds into a new season and they are winless.

In the intervening years, Melbourne has selected 10 players with picks inside the top 20 of the national draft, four from the top four in three years. Now, with Tom Scully (pick one in 2009) in a Giants jumper, Watts (pick one in 2008) in the VFL and Cale Morton (pick four in 2007) in the worst of positions, no man's land, there is talk of yet another rebuild. A reconstruction of a reconstruction.

Not that Watts, unlike Scully, is yet lost to Melbourne. He is tall, quick and young, attributes that could still, for example, enable him to become a fine key defender if not a distinguished forward. His agility is such that Melbourne coach Mark Neeld has ordered him to play midfield for the club's VFL affiliate, Casey, this weekend.

"Jack has scope to play in a number of positions," Neeld said yesterday. "He's tall enough to play as a key forward, there is no doubting that. Can we put some muscle mass on him to enable him to wrestle with those big defenders? Yeah, I think we can.
"But he's also got that athletic ability and agility to play through the midfield, which is hard to match up on, so I think he'll spend his career being able to play in a number of positions."

Which sounds promising and could be fruitful. Except Watts, to the sort of premature and overblown acclaim that all top draftees are received with now, was said on draft day to be a power forward, the player to succeed David Neitz as commander-in-chief of Melbourne's forward 50.

It is a curious thing, expectation. Watts, by comparison with most others in his draft year, does not suffer greatly, if at all, and yet his reputation has and continues to do so.

Fremantle's Stephen Hill, selected at three in 2008, has made the biggest impression. He has played 72 of 73 matches for the Dockers, finished top seven or better in the club's best and fairest award in each of his three completed seasons and caught the eye of the umpires regularly enough to receive 11 Brownlow Medal votes.

Nic Naitanui, picked just after Watts at two and often said to be the player Melbourne ought to have taken, has played 60 of 73 matches and finished fifth and seventh in West Coast's best and fairest in the past two years.

Watts, it is often forgotten, was held back from senior football in his first season so he could complete his Year 12 studies and yet he has played as many games or thereabouts as Essendon's Michael Hurley (pick five), Carlton's Chris Yarran (six), Richmond's Tyrone Vickery (eight) or North Melbourne's Jack Ziebell (nine). His record at this point bears comparison with that of Hurley, seen to be the future of Essendon's attack for the next decade. Watts averages 5.1 marks a game and has kicked, in six fewer games and a poorer side, 37 goals to Hurley's 55. The Essendon man hauls in an average of 5.4 marks per game.

Somewhat understandably, Neeld tried to make the point yesterday that while Watts has much to learn, and has been demoted to do so, he has not been the disappointment some consider him to be. "Jack Watts is 196cm and is 21 years of age. He can play multiple roles," Neeld said.

"We want him to play this way, and he has a bit of improvement to do that. He's receptive to it. We've had some really good chats, productive chats during the week. He's on the training track confronting the things we want him to confront and we will see how he goes at VFL level."

A place, no doubt, where he will be reminded jeeringly and constantly of how much it really meant to be considered the number one teenage footballer in the country not four years ago.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/the-myth-of-the-afl-draft-system/story-fnca0u4y-1226347247835

dwaino

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2012, 01:32:59 PM »
Lol @ Gabby Lyon cracking the poos on MMM before over the idea that GWS and GCS will nominate their first picks on Viney.

-1 first round pick  :rollin and it means we all effectively move forward a pick.

Offline Tigeritis™©®

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2012, 03:59:16 PM »
You can have all the picks you want but it's alot harder to manufacture a winning culture at a club that have been losers for 50 years.   
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Offline Smokey

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2012, 05:26:42 PM »
You can have all the picks you want but it's alot harder to manufacture a winning culture at a club that have been losers for 50 years.

Especially when you deliberately lose to get those picks.  Oh, hang on, that's good strategy and the only way to guarantee success.   ::)

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2012, 06:01:46 PM »
You can have all the picks you want but it's alot harder to manufacture a winning culture at a club that have been losers for 50 years.

Especially when you deliberately lose to get those picks.  Oh, hang on, that's good strategy and the only way to guarantee success.   ::)

Thomas and pedders got medals mate.

Offline Tigeritis™©®

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2012, 06:07:32 PM »
Teams like essendon or Sydney or Geelong or Adelaide don't spend too long in the bottom half of the ladder.
Sydney were a club that changed the culture and despite experts expecting them to fall down the ladder since their grand final appearences they have defied all predictions and played consistant finals footy. By far the best team at recycling players to suit their needs. But you can't do anything with rubbish no matter how much you try and clean it ie.Morton.
Essendon new that having Bomber Thompson back would help create a standard of excellence at the club.
In light of this I think Craig Cameron should go and we should pay top dollar to poach a great football manager from a successful club with a success driven culture.

Vote 1 Neil Balme for football manager.     
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Offline Eat_em_Alive

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2012, 11:44:47 PM »
Teams like essendon or Sydney or Geelong or Adelaide don't spend too long in the bottom half of the ladder.
Sydney were a club that changed the culture and despite experts expecting them to fall down the ladder since their grand final appearences they have defied all predictions and played consistant finals footy. By far the best team at recycling players to suit their needs. But you can't do anything with rubbish no matter how much you try and clean it ie.Morton.
Essendon new that having Bomber Thompson back would help create a standard of excellence at the club.
In light of this I think Craig Cameron should go and we should pay top dollar to poach a great football manager from a successful club with a success driven culture.

Vote 1 Neil Balme for football manager.     

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Offline Coach

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2012, 12:00:03 AM »
Would prefer we had a crack at Grant Thomas.

Offline Smokey

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2012, 12:04:00 AM »
You can have all the picks you want but it's alot harder to manufacture a winning culture at a club that have been losers for 50 years.

Especially when you deliberately lose to get those picks.  Oh, hang on, that's good strategy and the only way to guarantee success.   ::)

Thomas and pedders got medals mate.

And Collingwood didn't win a flag by tanking.  Got them one extra pick that they used wisely and helped them to a flag but if you think that they won their flag or owe their current run of success to tanking then you are kidding yourself.  Mate.

Offline Danog

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2012, 02:08:06 AM »
I bottomed out last weekend. 

Offline Penelope

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Re: The great 'bottoming out' myth (Herald-Sun)
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2012, 07:11:20 AM »
You can have all the picks you want but it's alot harder to manufacture a winning culture at a club that have been losers for 50 years.

Especially when you deliberately lose to get those picks.  Oh, hang on, that's good strategy and the only way to guarantee success.   ::)

Thomas and pedders got medals mate.

And Collingwood didn't win a flag by tanking.  Got them one extra pick that they used wisely and helped them to a flag but if you think that they won their flag or owe their current run of success to tanking then you are kidding yourself.  Mate.
Get with the program smokey, every team, except Richmond, that has finished last since the inception of the draft has done so on purpose. No one has a genuine poor year is a genuinly poor side these days.
Sheesh, Colonwoood even had a practice run in 1976.
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