Author Topic: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth  (Read 3013 times)

Offline Harry

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Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« on: May 29, 2004, 03:09:37 PM »
I mentioned in a previous post that RFC have recruited/traded for 17 mature aged players in the past 6 years. (Can't remembr further).  Our quick fix mentality has killed us.

2003 - Brown, Morrison, Weller, Marsh, Fletcher
2002 - Johnson, Blumfield, Fleming, Nichols
2001 - Stafford, Houlihan, Hudson
2000 - Sziller
1999 - King, Cameron
1998 - Hilton, Biddiscombe

Of the above we only have 3 regulars - one of which (Staff) will soon retire.  Therefore from the past 6 years, only 2 of 17 will be part of our immediate futur.

The tigers should have rebuilt the list 5-6 years ago and the following will give you a best case scenario if they went down that path.

I will outline the type of players we missed out on because we didn't have our finger on the pulse regarding the youngsters coming through the ranks, and opted for the easy, quick fix option.  Some of these will surprise you.

- Hilton - mised out on Jude Bolton.  (there were others that are also making a name for themselves, but I'm not aware of them)
- Biddiscombe - Wojcinski
- Cameron - gave away 2 draft picks from which Hahn and Hargraves were chosen
- King - swapped for McKee and gained Fiora
- Sziller - Johncock
- Stafford - this was a massive blunder - look at the players that went after pick 17 - James Kelly, Andrew Welsh, Campbell Brown, Sam Mitchell, Steve Armstrong, Matt Maguire. For the purposes of this excercise we'll pick Kelly as he was picked at 17.
- Hudson - we were after a small forward and look at what we missed - Medhurst, Schneider (we'll pick Medhurst)
- Houlihan - McCarthy (promising KPP for the cats)
- Johnson - Wells
- Blumfield - Leigh Fisher (saints - is getting games in the quality line up)
- Fleming - Corrie (promising young aboriginal getting games at brisbane)
- Nichols - Karl Norman - good prospect KPP
- Brown - Keppler Bradley AND pick 20 (All Australian U18 - lets say Adcock/Nash)
- Morrison - ??
- Weller - Surjan - All Aus - playing well for Port
- Fletcher - Furfaro - All Aus
- Marsh - Davey
 
(Note - there are still youngsters from the past 2-3 years that haven't shown much that will become superstars and I haven't identified above)

I understand that hindsight is a wonderful thing and that the above analysis is a best case scenario.  But my point is with intelligent use of the draft, the above is possible if you do your homework, and have confidence in your abilities.  It has been apparent that the football dept at RFC, for too long, have not had confidence in their abilities to identify and develop young talent and have taken the conservative approach and recruited mature players who would add a strong body to the contest immediately.

Therefore our list could have potentially consisted of players like

- Bolton, Wojcinski, Hahn, Hargraves, Johncock, Kelly, Medhurst, McCarthy, Wells, Fisher, Corrie, Norman, Bradley, Adcock, Surjan, Furfaro, Davey.

That's 17 quality players who have the best of the carreers in front of them.

Add the likes of Krakour, Newman, Coughlan, Schulz, Tivendale, Ottens, Hartigan, Roach, Foley, Moore, Hyde, etc. along with some of the older blokes that have been on the list for a while, and you would get a pretty strong list with heaps of improvement in front of it.

However, at the moment our list comprises of mostly very average players whose best is behind them.  The tigers need to rebuild now more than ever.

(Note - I haven't mentioned the Fiora and Pettifer draft blunders because they went the right path and went for youth.  The intention was right but the execution was bad.)

 

« Last Edit: May 29, 2004, 11:40:20 PM by Harry Hedgehog »
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2004, 04:18:45 PM »
I'll come back after the game to answer this thread properly but just a quick correction (which actually adds to Harry's argument). We got Otto after swapping Chris Bond for a pick 2 in 97. The King & pick 3 for McKee & pick 7 swap got us Fiora in 99. The Johnson deal was Johnson & pick 12/14 (Schulz) for Torney & pick 2/4 (Wells). There were higher picks swapped as well in that deal. We also got pick 41 (Krakouer) for Ben Harrison.

Moral of the story is to trade reliable but not superstar players (Torney, Harrison, Bond) for higher picks to build and rebuild your list with top young kids.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

PuntRdRoar

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2004, 07:32:44 PM »
And thats why players like Chaffey, Bowden, Gaspar and Tivendale should all be traded. We need draft picks and plenty of them. We got hammered today...we aint going to make the eight...im hoping for a bottom placed finish and a priority pick! Get a couple of picks for the players mentioned above and we have the foundation of a decent youth policy being formed!

Offline Harry

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2004, 07:41:58 PM »
Yep - my mistake.......we got fiora and not ottens in the deal with King.

Also regarding Schulz, the odds of us getting him with pick 18 instead of pick 12 were still pretty good as he was touted as a top 20-ish pick and experts were quite surprised that he was picked as early as 12.

Also re-reading my post it is actually Andrew Welsh and not Scott Welsh.
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Ox

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2004, 08:08:22 PM »
Good post Harry Hip-Hop

Offline Fishfinger

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2004, 09:22:10 PM »
I know you don't get anything for nothing but I can't see the why we would trade Bowden. Everyone has been waiting for him to show results that match his ability and it finally seems to be happening. Trading a class player who appears to be reaching the peak of his career for an untried youngster could have the possibility of becoming the daddy of our many mistakes.

I'd like us to turn over our list much the same as at the end of 2003, with an influx of youngsters plus a couple of players from other clubs who could benefit our team.
As for who goes, it's too early to form my opinion as there are still 12 rounds to go.
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Offline Puntroadroar

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2004, 12:11:51 AM »
hey harry,

you have forgotten to take into account our ability to pick up talented kids with our picks if we didnt trade them away LOL

i would say 3/5 of our top picks would have worked  ;D
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2004, 07:15:13 PM »
It not just a case of getting heaps of picks. We had heaps (10) last year. The problem was nearly all of them were after pick 60. From memory only Gilmour (21) and F/S Roach (38) were "early" picks. You need a number of quality 1st and 2nd round picks as drafting a young kid is still a gamble and if one or two don't make it you still have high quality kids added to your list. That's why you trade up for high picks to reduce the risk.

If the recruiters then continually waste the vast majority of these high picks on poor choices then it's good-bye recruiters. Similarly, if the coaching staff overrule the recruiters and go for short-term ready made players then it's good-bye coaching staff.

What has also killed us over the years is that we've gone for a kid or ready-made player based on the position they play instead on the best available. When we were accused of being tough but not skillful in the mid-late 90's we just went after pure skillful types. When we decided we needed more scoring options we loaded up on forward pocket types. Just dumb, dumb, dumb and dumb!

After all that, I do agree with FF that it's still too early to make a judgement on whose to go and whose to stay. Wait until the end of round 22.
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Offline Tiger Spirit

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2004, 04:19:56 PM »
It has been apparent that the football dept at RFC, for too long, have not had confidence in their abilities to identify and develop young talent …

Never a truer word spoken Harry H.

I wouldn’t normally post about such things, for a variety of reasons and was going to leave this until about Round 14, but as it seems obvious that things aren’t going to turn around (barring a miracle), and that change is almost assured at season’s end anyway, then why wait?

And after almost five years, if that isn’t enough time in which to expect to see results then how long is enough?

So, no more Mr. Nice Guy and no more sitting on the fence for me.  Because I have ‘lived’ with a lot of things I haven’t liked in the past, but I can no longer tolerate the fact that players are recruited to this Club, only to have little, if any, chance of achieving anything like what they are capable of.

It’s abundantly clear to all that change has not and will not happen under the current coaching staff, barring the aforementioned miracle.  And if it wasn’t evident during and after 2001, it has become so over the last two and a bit seasons that this is the case.

Throughout the past five years, our Club (coaching staff) has not changed its approach in any way, shape or form that would give anyone confidence that we are heading in the right direction on the field.  And without on-field success, it seems that off-field success is nigh on impossible.

I doubt that it’s normal for a supporter to feel sorry for young players who are recruited to their Club.  But that’s how I’ve felt for at least the last two seasons, because I know what awaits them. They obviously have some talent and ability when they arrive and hopefully some confidence to match, but after spending enough time here they somehow come to doubt themselves and their ability, or at least that’s how it seems to me.  On the occasions that players seemingly progress, they then somehow mysteriously go backwards or plateau.

And it’s never as if the whole team has ever clicked at one time, because it’s always through the solid efforts and contribution of a few that we carve out our wins.  I won’t even start on the style of game, because for one thing, I don’t know what it is and for another, I don’t want to bore you as it does everyone who sees us play.

Most of our young players seem to spend most of their time sitting on the bench, game after game, losing confidence all the while.  Meanwhile, after starting behind us not more than 3 seasons ago, other Clubs have once again leapt over us and those young players at other Clubs somehow magically play like seasoned campaigners and seem to have such confidence in themselves and their teammates that it makes you wonder why it can’t happen at our Club.

For anyone who may be waiting for the Saints to fall over, I wouldn’t be holding my breath.  Even if they don’t succeed this season, what they have achieved to now has been on the back of a lot more than just emotion and momentum.  And you can at least see that Grant Thomas is setting the foundations for consistent success at his Club.

Geelong may not be as far advanced as the likes of St. Kilda, but there you can also at least see some improvement from when Mark Thompson started to now and that there is a definite direction in how they are going about things.  I wish I could say the same for us.

As you suggest Harry H., a lack of confidence in our ability to draft and develop players is bleeding obvious.  And despite telling us on several occasions that we needed to change, effectively, nothing has changed at our Club.
 
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Offline Harry

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2004, 04:51:46 PM »
Yep....good points spirit.

It's amazing how other clubs drop below us due to players retiring and so-on, then in a matter of years overtake us while we do our best to hang onto our precious 9th spot. 

The saints were the cellar dwellers in the late 80's and early 90's.  They rose up the ladder to play in the 97 final to eventually peak out then fall drastically down the ladder.  They spent a few years there and have overtaken us again.

Gelong were a great side in the late 80's to mid 90's.  Their great players retired and they fell as a result.  5 years ago they realistically assessed their list and have shot passed us again.

Melbourne - they are the yo-yo of the competition and they are hard to judge.  But their list is much better than ours.

Collingwood - were crap, then won the 90 flag, were crap again, Malthouse came on board - 2 grand finals and it seems they achieved all they could.  Malthouse has publicly stated that they need to rebuild and if we don't get our act together they will again overtake us.

WestCoast - Won 2 flags in the 90's, their champions all retired at about the same time, they really bottomed out but have now rebuilt to an extent and have a much better playing list than ours.

I can go on about other clubs but couldn't be bothered.  The moral of the story is that we need to bottom out and get early picks and recruit the next batch of quality youngsters that can be developed into our next nucleus of players.  This stop gap recruiting has to stop !!  And I'm talking about the Nathan Brown type trades !!

I don't want to be semi competitive now..........coz that's all that having Brown in the team does.

I want us to be super competitive in 4-5 years time.  And for god's sake, get people down to the club that know how to develop young players.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2004, 04:56:19 PM by Harry Hedgehog »
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2004, 06:15:59 PM »
I doubt that it’s normal for a supporter to feel sorry for young players who are recruited to their Club.  But that’s how I’ve felt for at least the last two seasons, because I know what awaits them. They obviously have some talent and ability when they arrive and hopefully some confidence to match, but after spending enough time here they somehow come to doubt themselves and their ability, or at least that’s how it seems to me.  On the occasions that players seemingly progress, they then somehow mysteriously go backwards or plateau.

Great post TS.

I think every Tiger friend and supporter I have spoken to has mentioned at least once how many of our blokes skill-level was better when they first arrive at Richmond than what it is after a few years at Tigerland. Blame the style we play and/or the lack of drills in training but we obviously do something to them ???. 
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2012, 03:51:23 AM »
Is mr Jackson a

List Clogger  :huh

Gigantor

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 06:16:19 AM »
Is mr Jackson a

List Clogger  :huh
Only when Messers Dimma and cameron say he is

Offline Eat_em_Alive

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2012, 06:49:04 AM »
Gees that was in 04', imagine if someone told them that in 2012 we still hadn't made finals.
At least we have gone and rebuilt properly imo and used a. Youth mentality, we now are picking up some experienced players to help get us over that hurdle until some of these cubs develop.
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Offline tigs2011

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Re: Quick fix vs Rebuilding via Youth
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 09:58:42 AM »
Gees that was in 04', imagine if someone told them that in 2012 we still hadn't made finals.
At least we have gone and rebuilt properly imo and used a. Youth mentality, we now are picking up some experienced players to help get us over that hurdle until some of these cubs develop.


Not only have we rebuilt via youth but look at what we are paying for experienced players compared to the past. Mind blowing.