Richmond's change of recruiting philosophy drives change of fortunes (H-Sun)

[the claw]

Claw - Hartley did not arrive until 2010 so realistically only made his first impact on recruiting in 2011 so none of these players can be included to your list - farmer, nason, webberley, derickx, miller and jakobi.

He has more than enough runs on the board to make him a trading superstar for mine.  Maric, Morris, Chaplin, Grigg, Houli, A.Edwards have all strengthened our side immeasurably. I now have faith 'his' new batch - Hampson, Gordan, Lloyd and Thomas, will do the same. He has a better track record than almost every other recruiter in his role across the rest of the competition.

hartley was the national recruiting manager at port in 09  and was replaced by geoff parker  that yr. he arrived at richmond the end of the  09 season.. we got him in specifically to target mature types straight off the bat.
so in effect i have not listed every mature recruit from every draft at his feet just the ones that have come to us in his time.

it is so well known that greg miller wanted travis varcoe at 8 in  2008. we took jon on the back of  francis jacksons opinion.  this comes from a person who was actually on our draft table in 2005.
its also well known miller was so keen on varcoe he went had a long chat to  the geelong boys at the end of the draft.
we blame miller for a lot of things but we cant blame him for jon.

its really funny when it comes to jackson and hartley. everyone it seems wants to talk about the successes but no one wants to talk about the many failures.
im just pointing people to their whole records and basically asking is their records as good as most seem to want to paint it.
i could join in with most others and join the back slapping but that would just help  paint the unbalanced picture that is being painted.

i will ask again when it comes to jackson in particular
how many 2nd 3rd 4th rounders has he got right how many rookie picks has he found if its possible our rookies have been worse than those nd picks .
really in all honesty what great insight did he need to take cotchin and martin  ffs they were picks 2 and 3.  just how good has his first rounders be outside of those gimmes.

its just my opinion but still that opinon is we should be doing much better in these areas.

i think recruiting was so poor for so long most are prepared to hang their hat on average recruiting performances i think most are just happy to be getting getting decent players with  1st rounders which even i have said has happened.

i for one was hopeful that full and critical revues were done every 2 or 3 yrs on all positions of the running of the club by totally independent people. especially with recruiting and list management.  ive been saying that since 01.

. if we are going to praise jackson for getting nothing but 1st rounders right, ( and i say again most people who follow the kids would get a good percentage of 1st rounders right with all the information that is about today.  )  then we really do have the bar set too low.

[YellowandBlackBlood]

Claw - Hartley did not arrive until 2010 so realistically only made his first impact on recruiting in 2011 so none of these players can be included to your list - farmer, nason, webberley, derickx, miller and jakobi.

He has more than enough runs on the board to make him a trading superstar for mine.  Maric, Morris, Chaplin, Grigg, Houli, A.Edwards have all strengthened our side immeasurably. I now have faith 'his' new batch - Hampson, Gordan, Lloyd and Thomas, will do the same. He has a better track record than almost every other recruiter in his role across the rest of the competition.

hartley was the national recruiting manager at port in 09  and was replaced by geoff parker  that yr. he arrived at richmond the end of the  09 season.. we got him in specifically to target mature types straight off the bat.
so in effect i have not listed every mature recruit from every draft at his feet just the ones that have come to us in his time.

it is so well known that greg miller wanted travis varcoe at 8 in  2008. we took jon on the back of  francis jacksons opinion.  this comes from a person who was actually on our draft table in 2005.
its also well known miller was so keen on varcoe he went had a long chat to  the geelong boys at the end of the draft.
we blame miller for a lot of things but we cant blame him for jon.

its really funny when it comes to jackson and hartley. everyone it seems wants to talk about the successes but no one wants to talk about the many failures.
im just pointing people to their whole records and basically asking is their records as good as most seem to want to paint it.
i could join in with most others and join the back slapping but that would just help  paint the unbalanced picture that is being painted.

i will ask again when it comes to jackson in particular
how many 2nd 3rd 4th rounders has he got right how many rookie picks has he found if its possible our rookies have been worse than those nd picks .
really in all honesty what great insight did he need to take cotchin and martin  ffs they were picks 2 and 3.  just how good has his first rounders be outside of those gimmes.

its just my opinion but still that opinon is we should be doing much better in these areas.

i think recruiting was so poor for so long most are prepared to hang their hat on average recruiting performances i think most are just happy to be getting getting decent players with  1st rounders which even i have said has happened.

i for one was hopeful that full and critical revues were done every 2 or 3 yrs on all positions of the running of the club by totally independent people. especially with recruiting and list management.  ive been saying that since 01.

. if we are going to praise jackson for getting nothing but 1st rounders right, ( and i say again most people who follow the kids would get a good percentage of 1st rounders right with all the information that is about today.  )  then we really do have the bar set too low.

Claw, it's all well to criticise our club for it's failures. However, you must acknowledge ALL clubs have failures in drafting.  Why don't you dissect our arch enemy Carlton and their drafting since 2004 (10 years)? Just as a comparison, why don't you put your investigative skills to some other use?

[blaisee]

He isn't emotionally involved with Carlton

Our drafting and trading over the last 4 years has been outstanding.

How else could we have gone from 4 wins to 15?

[tony_montana]

Claw - Hartley did not arrive until 2010 so realistically only made his first impact on recruiting in 2011 so none of these players can be included to your list - farmer, nason, webberley, derickx, miller and jakobi.

He has more than enough runs on the board to make him a trading superstar for mine.  Maric, Morris, Chaplin, Grigg, Houli, A.Edwards have all strengthened our side immeasurably. I now have faith 'his' new batch - Hampson, Gordan, Lloyd and Thomas, will do the same. He has a better track record than almost every other recruiter in his role across the rest of the competition.

hartley was the national recruiting manager at port in 09  and was replaced by geoff parker  that yr. he arrived at richmond the end of the  09 season.. we got him in specifically to target mature types straight off the bat.
so in effect i have not listed every mature recruit from every draft at his feet just the ones that have come to us in his time.

it is so well known that greg miller wanted travis varcoe at 8 in  2008. we took jon on the back of  francis jacksons opinion.  this comes from a person who was actually on our draft table in 2005.
its also well known miller was so keen on varcoe he went had a long chat to  the geelong boys at the end of the draft.
we blame miller for a lot of things but we cant blame him for jon.

its really funny when it comes to jackson and hartley. everyone it seems wants to talk about the successes but no one wants to talk about the many failures.
im just pointing people to their whole records and basically asking is their records as good as most seem to want to paint it.
i could join in with most others and join the back slapping but that would just help  paint the unbalanced picture that is being painted.

i will ask again when it comes to jackson in particular
how many 2nd 3rd 4th rounders has he got right how many rookie picks has he found if its possible our rookies have been worse than those nd picks .
really in all honesty what great insight did he need to take cotchin and martin  ffs they were picks 2 and 3.  just how good has his first rounders be outside of those gimmes.

its just my opinion but still that opinon is we should be doing much better in these areas.

i think recruiting was so poor for so long most are prepared to hang their hat on average recruiting performances i think most are just happy to be getting getting decent players with  1st rounders which even i have said has happened.

i for one was hopeful that full and critical revues were done every 2 or 3 yrs on all positions of the running of the club by totally independent people. especially with recruiting and list management.  ive been saying that since 01.

. if we are going to praise jackson for getting nothing but 1st rounders right, ( and i say again most people who follow the kids would get a good percentage of 1st rounders right with all the information that is about today.  )  then we really do have the bar set too low.

you are wrong about Hartley.There is a difference between targeting opposition players in Maric, Grigg, Houli and Chaplin and redrafting marure types like Orren, Petterd, Lonergan, Morris. Think about the differences in process and you have your answer. Lumping the latter at Hartleys feet for you to show everyone he has had misses is just wrong.

[Bengal]

i think a comparison to make is our side pre 08 to our side now..   Do that and you have your answer.

He's done well.

[blaisee]

I cant believe that some are debating whether Blair and Frank have done good jobs, is this a joke?

Do your research s far as what players have actually cost us, and how many games they have played.

Its very easy to throw bombs from the cheap seats

[Bengal]

. if we are going to praise jackson for getting nothing but 1st rounders right, ( and i say again most people who follow the kids would get a good percentage of 1st rounders right with all the information that is about today.  )  then we really do have the bar set too low.

He's got more right than your esteemed self.. 

[wayne]

I cant believe that some are debating whether Blair and Frank have done good jobs, is this a joke?

Do your research s far as what players have actually cost us, and how many games they have played.

Its very easy to throw bombs from the cheap seats

 

[Beans]

I cant believe that some are debating whether Blair and Frank have done good jobs, is this a joke?

Do your research s far as what players have actually cost us, and how many games they have played.

Its very easy to throw bombs from the cheap seats

 

Agree entirely. Everywhere in the press the Tigers are being lauded for getting most of it right (and no-one is getting it all right). It is now clear to everyone, including some perceptive people on this forum  that we are trying to recruit very good, consistent players who will play 150-200 games and play a role rather than try for superstars. very different perspective. Incidentally Claw, Jackson had little say in selecting JON. I attended the draft soiree that year and it was all Miller's push. I recall Jackson saying that we just didn't have enough resources at that time either.

[RedanTiger]

Agree entirely. Everywhere in the press the Tigers are being lauded for getting most of it right (and no-one is getting it all right). It is now clear to everyone, including some perceptive people on this forum  that we are trying to recruit very good, consistent players who will play 150-200 games and play a role rather than try for superstars. very different perspective. Incidentally Claw, Jackson had little say in selecting JON. I attended the draft soiree that year and it was all Miller's push. I recall Jackson saying that we just didn't have enough resources at that time either.

While I accept that Richmond's recruiting resources were abysmal in the period you're talking about, the fact is that the decision to recruit JON ignored what objective resources pointed to - that Shannon Hurn was a better pick in terms of skill, athletic ability, leadership, commitment and most importantly, exposed form.

As posted previously on this subject

which expert's advice would he have been ignoring?

Shannon Hurn
AIS Academy selectors - 2004 AIS Academy.
Central District coaches - 2004 & 05 Premierships (named in best for '05 GF).
SA U18 Selectors - 2005 SA state rep.
SA Coaches - 2005 SA Captain.
AA Selectors - 2005 AA team.3
Also had a rookie contract with SA to play cricket as a junior in 2004 and passed on another in 2005.

Jarrod Oakley -Nichols
WA Selectors - 2005 State Rep.
"He started the year in the Colts and while he doesn't get a lot of the footy he can be very damaging with 15 possessions across half back-midfield"
East Perth football manager, Jarrod Chipperfield from Inside Football 9/11/05.

 

[Chuck17]

I think Richard Lounder was a wasted pick

[Judge Roughneck]

Hurn was widely touted as the #1 for a while

when he was still there @ 8, it was bizarre to over look him

[yandb]

We shouldn't underestimate the influence Wallet had on our recruiting. I recall reading an article where wallet hoped we would draft him after seeing him play.

[the claw]

. if we are going to praise jackson for getting nothing but 1st rounders right, ( and i say again most people who follow the kids would get a good percentage of 1st rounders right with all the information that is about today.  )  then we really do have the bar set too low.

He's got more right than your esteemed self..

has he???. has he really.    2005 to 2013 one finals appearance says a lot.  thats one yr shy of two five yr plans.. in 9 yrs how many  draft picks are actual success stories.  we are filling the failed yrs up with mature players now to compensate.

look all im saying is yes hes an improvement on what we had and we have improved. lets face it we could not have ever been worse.
but imo we should be doing much better than what we are when it comes to the nd overall.

[Hard Roar Tiger]

Most recruiters point to a 5 year time frame to assess success.
Process is one things, the facts are another - the only fact worth looking to is the win/loss column over the last 5 years vs the prior 5 years along with absolute list turn over.
Facts are we've removed almost everyone from the 2009 list and gone from 4 wins to 15.
Facts speak for themselves, emotions do as well they just have a much lower impact on the argument