Generation Next

[letsgetiton!]

i think we should use cogs as trade bait for a special player, everyone seems to think he is an awesome player  so lets palm him off while he is of value , b4 his market value drops and everyone sees that his faults outweigh his talents. yes he has courage, yes he may win a hard ball and a marking contest...but he kicks crap, he has a poor action which he will never change, all he does is poke at th eball and float it without any penetration  tyhus his kicks take extra seconds to reach its target thus a spoil and turnover occurs and usually a goal. on the other hand johnos does have pentetrating kicks but he accuracy is damn well disgracefull, he is an average footballer with a huge reputation, and that the problem with richmond, we keep on selecting players based on reputationsS

gaspar is an all australian  so he gets selected................but he is a hack most of the time and continues to make wrong decisions.

johnson is captain , based on his premierships and reputation, but he cant kick accurately and makes too many clangers and is a pretty hopeless leader on the feild cos he cannot lead by example

tivendale, has a reputaion as a gr8 left foot kick, but we never see him use it to benefit the team

kellaway, has a reutaion as being very couragious , and he is, but he is slow in mind and movement

krak , and yes one of my favs as we know, has a reputaion top create magic, but rarely shows it

ray hall, has a reputation of being a clutz, but he still makes the team!!!

chaffey , hjas a reputation of being a honest hard worker, but lets face it, any one can be a tagger and he should go back to baseball



this is where the tigers have failed in th epassed and i hope terry is onto this. we kep on selecting players based on reputation and not ability.


this is why he have found some winners
besides delediop who is goingh to be the great afl player, and tambling who will be better next yr  and is showing maturity bec when he has a down quarter he keeps trying and as v the blues and dockers his second halfs were very good for a 1st yr player.

but

the winners are foley and thursfield, here we have an dold fashioned hard nut who wins his own ball and uses it well, unlike cogs and johnson, and thurfield as a defender with pace and athleticism, and he looks very composed and makes the right decisions.

i really hoep we keep playing the kids and keep losing 4 the rest of the yr, as we need more quality kids in the team and need to get rid of the older and more experienced players who only have reputations .  sugar is captain and safe, but the rest should all be let go.

its time the tigers got serious at the selection table, and really assess the players as they should be on their skills not reputations

[Tiger Spirit]

Interesting views X.  I think you'll find that we keep selecting players because there’s no one else.  You’re entitled to your opinion, the same as anyone else, but our list, and skill level, didn’t suddenly change from last week, the week before, or any other week before that.  A bit like your criticism and assessment of some of our players really.

It’s no good criticising the fact that certain players are selected week after week.  They’re on the list and until someone else either deserves or is ready to get an opportunity ahead of them then I guess they’ll keep getting selected.  If you want to be critical of anything then be equally critical of our past recruiting and coaching as you are of the players themselves.  After all, they didn’t recruit themselves or let themselves get away with that level of skill.

Even though I agree with some of your criticism of players, I also think that they each must have some redeeming qualities to be on an AFL list in the first place.

If I’ve got this right then, according to you, it seems that as long as a player has skill then that’s all he needs to be an AFL player.  If that’s so then I dispute that.

You keep criticising Kane Johnson for his captaincy, even though the club took several weeks to find the best available captain.  I think it was acknowledged at the time that we didn’t have someone with all the qualities you might look for in a captain.  That shouldn’t diminish the choice made though.  Maybe he’s not ideal in your eyes, but he was deemed the best available as far as the coaches and players were concerned. And even if he doesn’t have the sort of influence on a game you think he should have, he no doubt influences and impacts on his teammates in ways we don’t get to see, but which benefits them, otherwise he couldn’t have been selected.

Part of the reason I started this thread was because of some of the criticism levelled at Cogs, which is a bit different to two years ago.  Knowing our history with developing players, I was even beginning to wonder myself whether he had stagnated or even gone backwards, but we have to remember that he’s coming back from possibly a career threatening injury, as well as learning a somewhat different role to previous seasons.  Maybe there’s no room in your team for anyone with that level of commitment and dedication to make the sort of comeback he has, but I’d be happy with a team of players with that sort of discipline. And if it rubs off on some of the younger players then would that be a bad thing?

And that’s where it’s up to the footy club to make the sort of decisions that help improve the playing list and the players themselves, because they hopefully know better than us who can take us forward and who will hold us back.  Like everyone else, I guess you don’t want to see us make the same mistakes as in the past, which is fair enough, but some of the players you continually criticise are helping the development of the younger players, even if you choose not to see that.

[julzqld]

Tambling, on the other hand, while being just as competitive and driven, seems to have put pressure on himself because he hasn’t done as well as some of the other high draft picks.  I don’t know anyone, not even me, who could expect anything more from any first year player, other than to just learn from the experience.  Maybe if he let go of any expectations and just went out to learn and enjoy playing the game, instead of being frustrated that he hasn’t been able to control the way the season has turned out so far, things might happen a little easier for him.  If he hasn’t already, hopefully he will soon realise that you can’t always control the way things turn out, so you might as well go with the flow and make the most of the situation you’re in.

Tambling was surprised he went as No. 4 in the Draft - he thought he'd be No. 2.  I guess with Lids and Griffen both playing so well have been a thorn in Tambling's side as well as the injuries he's had.

[Tiger Spirit]

It’s good that Richard sets high standards for himself.  At the same time though, he probably puts himself under the sort of pressure that even a seasoned campaigner could struggle with.  I may be wrong, but it doesn’t seem like anyone needs to criticise him, because he seems to save everyone else the trouble and is harder on himself than anyone else could ever be.  Best if he can make the most of and just enjoy and learn from the experiences that generally come along for all players.

[WilliamPowell]

Yeah, you’re right Moi, if I’m going to be critical of anyone I should be critical of myself for having such expectations.

I wouldn’t be too worried about me going around bagging Cogs though, if that’s what you’re thinking.

In another post I also went on and said something about the Club’s ability to develop players, which, after thinking about what I had originally posted, was more the point I was trying to get at, rather than wanting to criticise Cogs.

I don't think it's wrong for us to have expectations of our players. How high we set the bar is up to each individual. We watch them come through see something we like and hope that the can build on it and improve. To me at least that's how the expectation side of things works.

I also don't think it's wrong to have high expectation of our players. I

I suppose what I've been guilty of is having a different set of expectations for different players. I know I do it and I reckon other do as well. I have no doubt we cut certain players a bit more slack compared to others, while expecting more of others. Perhaps personally that's where I need to try and balance out things a bit better.

I guess it's human nature to a degree.

Joel Bowden over the years has been the best example; so many people have been critical of him over the years because we all see this naturally gifted player who seemed to be going through the motions that it frustrated the hell out of people. Personally I know that I expected more from Joel Bowden than say Ray Hall because Joel is the more natural footballer. In hindsight it probably wasn't fair.

Cogs is another that falls in the category for me at least where the expectations are rightly or wrongly much higher. As TS mentioned he achieved so much so quickly (B&F, standing out as young player in really bad side) and as a result we as Tiger supporters were talking him up as future captain, leader etc. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not; but I do know I have been critical of him even allowing for the injury he has had. I've been frustrated with him because he just doesn't appear to be doing some of the stuff he did back in 2003 when he won the B&F. Is that because of the injury and the managment of it or because he isn't being challenged enough to make further improvements to his game? Am I being too harsh? I honestly don't know - just trying to be honest

By my reading I think this is the sort of player development TS may be talking about (please correct me if I am wrong here).

Isn't the challenge of developing players about improving them all the time? We don't seem to have done this very well over the last few years - some players seem to be exactly where they were 2 years ago. My hope is that over the next 4-5 years we will be saying more often that not "gee player X has improved again this year"

[Fishfinger]

It's hard to be objective about players when you're emotional about your expectations of them. I have no doubt that some of the next generation will cop unfair criticism for that reason.
Hopefully they won't have to cop as much what Joel Bowden has.

[Moi]

Well, i get annoyed at players being marked when they've come back from chronic injuries and are expected to get right back up to where they were before their injuries.  Case in point Gaspar, now Mark.  Give them time to heal, and in a few year time with Cogs and his form is not up to scratch, by all means, have a go and question where he's going.  But to make generalisations about someone not living up to your expectations and following the form of other RFC players in the past, when you wouldn't have a clue what he might be carrying or trying to get over just really isn't on.  He is still a kid - give him a break.  And as for trading him, anyone who suggests that has got rocks in their head.

[WilliamPowell]

Well, i get annoyed at players being marked when they've come back from chronic injuries and are expected to get right back up to where they were before their injuries.  Case in point Gaspar, now Mark.  Give them time to heal, and in a few year time with Cogs and his form is not up to scratch, by all means, have a go and question where he's going. 

Fair call Moi

 But to make generalisations about someone not living up to your expectations and following the form of other RFC players in the past, when you wouldn't have a clue what he might be carrying or trying to get over just really isn't on.

Fair point as well but we kept getting told everything is OK so the assumptions are based on that. If he isn't right then why is he playing?

I suppose the point I was trying to make and perhaps I didn't make it at all ( ) was I don't just want the kid to come back as good as he was I want him to be better and see him improve because prior to injury it appeared he had a lot of improvement in him. I suppose I am wondering if that's possible because of where he is coming back from it was a terrible injury. Coupled with that our recent history show that we as a club develop players to a point and then that's it - I suppose I am just wondering if we as a club we can get better at it.

Maybe it was wrong of me to single out players - but I was just trying to put up an example from my perspective of this player development thing

Also, what's wrong with supporters having expectations of their teams players? There have been a number of players that have copped a fair amount of criticism eg. Tivendale, Johnson, Simmonds this season. Haven't they copped it because the are not delivering what we as supporters expect from them?

It's hard to be objective about players when you're emotional about your expectations of them. I have no doubt that some of the next generation will cop unfair criticism for that reason.
Hopefully they won't have to cop as much what Joel Bowden has.

Maybe that's part of the puzzle FF - the emotional side of footy. There doesn't appear to be anyway to escape it and from a personal view point I wouldn't want too.  If I didn't want the emotional rollercoaster way I'd follow Freo

[Tiger Spirit]

It's hard to be objective about players when you're emotional about your expectations of them. I have no doubt that some of the next generation will cop unfair criticism for that reason.

If the next generation of players cop criticism then the criticism will aimed in the wrong direction.  Players generally do as much as is expected of them and only get away with as much as they are allowed to get away with, if they want to stay on the list.  Sure players have to take some of the responsibility, but our footy club hasn’t exactly been a trend setter in on-field excellence over the years, partly because we never demanded enough of players and instead allowed mediocre efforts.

If RFC don’t know that by now then it shouldn’t be the players who cop the criticism in the future, as some have to now.

[Fishfinger]

I'm not saying we shouldn't have an opinion of our own players or shouldn't be entitled to one, but the point I was trying to make is if you want an objective opinion on a player you are unlikely to get it from a passionate supporter of the team he plays for. The same for supporters of all teams, not just ours.  That goes for over-inflating a player's ability as well as being overly critical.

I find it hard to know where any criticism should be aimed TS, but I doubt there are many players who only do as much as they can get away with. I also think that a lot of players who are criticised were never going to reach the lofty heights that their critics expected of them rather than just hoped for. I'm not a believer of 110%, if you get 100% out of yourself then you've done your best and there isn't any more. I don't criticise because I can't judge that.

[mightytiges]

I suppose what I've been guilty of is having a different set of expectations for different players. I know I do it and I reckon other do as well. I have no doubt we cut certain players a bit more slack compared to others, while expecting more of others. Perhaps personally that's where I need to try and balance out things a bit better.

I guess it's human nature to a degree.

I agree WP. IMO we all at times have been guilty of having different expectations for different players but your right WP that's just human nature. The underdog who has had to work hard to achieve where he/she is at will get more slaps on the back than a naturally gifted person who reaches the exact same level or even higher. For example Hyde and even Pettifer have improved significantly this year compared to 2004 and we think that because in the past we had them as delistings candidates that they've done well and we are no longer critical of them. Compare that to Cogs who contributes more to the team than both of them yet cops criticism because we expect far more from a B&F winner in his first full year of AFL.

That's why we can't get too far ahead with Lids. He of course has heaps of talent and the potential to be anything but potential is a dirty word in footy.  He is where he is at now and that's all at this stage.

Isn't the challenge of developing players about improving them all the time? We don't seem to have done this very well over the last few years - some players seem to be exactly where they were 2 years ago. My hope is that over the next 4-5 years we will be saying more often that not "gee player X has improved again this year"

Totally agree WP.

[Tiger Spirit]

Well, i get annoyed at players being marked when they've come back from chronic injuries and are expected to get right back up to where they were before their injuries. Case in point Gaspar, now Mark. Give them time to heal, and in a few year time with Cogs and his form is not up to scratch, by all means, have a go and question where he's going. But to make generalisations about someone not living up to your expectations and following the form of other RFC players in the past, when you wouldn't have a clue what he might be carrying or trying to get over just really isn't on. He is still a kid - give him a break. And as for trading him, anyone who suggests that has got rocks in their head.

You make some valid points Moi.  When I started this thread, I was feeling a bit disheartened and didn’t really know what or how I should think about things.  As this is a forum where we can discuss all matters Richmond, I just put my views up to see what others felt, because the reason we discuss things is so that we can see other points of view and gain a different understanding of things.

And mainly, I just needed a different perspective on the matter.  Because, as Fishfinger said:

It's hard to be objective about players when you're emotional about your expectations of them.

At the time, I couldn’t tell if I was being objective or just plain unreasonable and, looking at it now, I guess I just let my emotions get in the way of reality.

[Tiger Spirit]

I'm not saying we shouldn't have an opinion of our own players or shouldn't be entitled to one, but the point I was trying to make is if you want an objective opinion on a player you are unlikely to get it from a passionate supporter of the team he plays for.

You don’t have to tell me FF, I think I’m now living proof of that.

I find it hard to know where any criticism should be aimed TS, but I doubt there are many players who only do as much as they can get away with. I also think that a lot of players who are criticised were never going to reach the lofty heights that their critics expected of them rather than just hoped for. I'm not a believer of 110%, if you get 100% out of yourself then you've done your best and there isn't any more. I don't criticise because I can't judge that.

That’s one of the hardest things I find as well.  But the reason I say the criticism should in future be mostly directed at the Club is because they’re the ones who run the show.  If players either aren’t up to it or just don’t perform to the required level then it’s their responsibility to take action on that.  If they allow things to just drift along, and we don't see any improvement over time, as has happened in the past, for whatever reason, then we can no longer blame the players if the people in charge aren’t doing their job properly.

[Tiger Spirit]

Joel Bowden over the years has been the best example; so many people have been critical of him over the years because we all see this naturally gifted player who seemed to be going through the motions that it frustrated the hell out of people. Personally I know that I expected more from Joel Bowden than say Ray Hall because Joel is the more natural footballer. In hindsight it probably wasn't fair.

I suppose part of that comes back to what Joel, or any player, expects of himself.  If no one around him can see better in him than he sees in himself, and he’s therefore not challenged to do what he’s capable of, then that’s where the frustration can set in.  If players (and anyone really) can only do what they believe they are capable of then we wouldn’t need coaches and mentors (the ones who believe in you when no one else does, not even yourself) to help draw out any hidden ability.

Cogs is another that falls in the category for me at least where the expectations are rightly or wrongly much higher. As TS mentioned he achieved so much so quickly (B&F, standing out as young player in really bad side) and as a result we as Tiger supporters were talking him up as future captain, leader etc. Is that fair? Maybe, maybe not; but I do know I have been critical of him even allowing for the injury he has had. I've been frustrated with him because he just doesn't appear to be doing some of the stuff he did back in 2003 when he won the B&F. Is that because of the injury and the managment of it or because he isn't being challenged enough to make further improvements to his game? Am I being too harsh? I honestly don't know - just trying to be honest

By my reading I think this is the sort of player development TS may be talking about (please correct me if I am wrong here).

You’re absolutely spot on WP, that’s what I do mean, and there’s nothing wrong with being honest.  My main concern was that we could be going down the same track with Cogs as other players before him, who reach a certain level and then inexplicably stagnate or just go backwards.  I guess Cogs wasn’t a good example for me to use right now.  But that is what I mean about player development.

[Moi]

I didn't mean to attack you TS - just when i see a player targeted when the whole team has been down, i find it hard to fathom how one individual, especially when they've had a run of bad luck with injury, can be highlighted when, to me, the failures have been a team effort.

I also know it comes after a loss to Carlton and where the negativity was coming from.  While the players take it one week at a time - i reckon supporters should take the opposite view, and look at a season in perspective.  If we did that and take an overall view of how a player's performed, might be a bit more objective than after a miserable loss where a scapegoat is there for the sinking the boot in.