Generation Next

[Tiger Spirit]

I used to think that maybe Cogs was capable of more than what he’s shown this season, but instead he seems destined to follow in the footsteps of others within the team who have played the game at one pace their whole career.

Never mind that he’s built differently.  Not sure why he was given such a big engine when he’s happy to stroll around in the same gear all the time.  I know we should be grateful that he’s even out there, after what he’s been through, but why were we so looking forward to his come back?  We’re crying out for players who can change the course of a game, lift the intensity and tempo of a game and at one stage Cogs looked like he could be such a player.  Instead, we seem to be developing yet another player who is happy to stay in his comfort zone his whole career and be Mr. Solid Citizen.  Nothing terribly wrong with that, except we’ve had enough ‘solid citizens’ in the past to sink a battle ship; and where has it got us?

It’s not his fault that some of us built him up to be something he’s not and may never be.  More fool us for thinking someone might be capable of more than they see in themselves.  It doesn’t help that he probably doesn’t have the same confidence and belief in himself that others do.  How anyone could hope to improve on that by living in the comfort zone I’m not sure.

But, it’s his career and he’s the one that has to live it and be happy with it.

And if that’s the case then maybe we should just move on to generation next; no use knocking on a door that’s slammed shut.

Of the players that were out there yesterday, the ones who looked the most capable of playing the game at a level that could compete and match it with better opposition were all young and inexperienced players.  So at least we have something to look forward to there; as long as they don’t also allow themselves to get into the Richmond comfort zone.

[mightytiges]

Cogs was 3rd in the AFL prior to yesterday at winning contested footy so that part of his game is still strong. However he struggles to kick 40m. I didn't take much notice of it before his groin/pelvic problems so not sure if that's the reason but there sure is no penetration in his kicking anymore. When he had that set shot yesterday I was surprised it went straight through. Maybe it just was on the limit of his range.

The A-grade midfielders in the comp have the ability to win the ball in traffic, break free into space at pace and deliver pinpoint passes. Lids has that potential in him. Cogs doesn't have that. Cogs is more your in and under type which you still need. It's our fault we built up Cogs reputation. We were so desperate after 2001 and continually getting smashed in the midfield for guys who could win hard ball gets that finding young Cogs was like a dream come true. We as a club have learn to build up a top team and list; not a side that relies on 2-3 stars to get us over the line each week like we have in the past.

[Tiger Spirit]

That’s true MT, but the concern, for me anyway, is that once we have half decent players, do we know how to take them to the next level?  I’ve been asking myself this for a number of years, and I don’t know if we’re any better now than before at developing players.  Where’s the evidence to suggest we are?

I know it’s a bit unfair, as it’s TW’s first season and I’m sure it wouldn’t help that he’s probably inherited the most introverted list going around, which could make it even harder on any coach to get the results he asks from these players.  And it wouldn’t help either that he’s got no depth to call on right now, which probably puts added pressure on players who wouldn’t generally have so much asked of them.  But these things happen in footy and you have to be ready for anything.

The simple answer seems to be that we just need to continue to build the list.  But this takes time and what does a better list guarantee anyway, if you aren’t able to develop players?  You can only judge what the future will be like by the players out there now.

We say the younger players are coming along, but that’s all well and good while there’s minimal pressure on them to perform.  We said the same thing about Cogs a couple of years ago.  Now people are criticising him left, right and centre.  It’s in a couple of years time when we’ll probably get to find out how good our development skills are, by which time it could already be too late.

If Cogs is any indication then should we start worrying?  This definitely isn’t meant as a criticism of Cogs, but questioning whether RFC actually does know how to develop players and get something more out of them than just stock standard efforts and results.  Up until this year, he’d been allowed to basically do his own thing, but now that he’s gotta take more responsibility and be more accountable, he seems to have lost any sort of spark he may have had.  And he’s less likely to use any initiative and play with that devil may care attitude he used to play with that was so inspirational.

Who knows, maybe the impact of last season’s injury has taken it’s toll, or maybe it’s something else, but I’m sure players at other Clubs go through a similar learning curve, but somehow, in the process, we seem to manage to kill off any individual spark and character players have and turn them into robots, which makes us boring as bath water to watch and ten times as frustrating.

I don’t really know, but if Cogs is any indication then is that what we have to look forward to with the other players coming through?  You’d like to think things will be different in the future, but it would be more reassuring if you could actually be convinced of anything for once, rather than just live in hope all the time.

I know I go on about this, but I haven’t really seen anything yet that suggests we’re any better than before, in this area.

[mightytiges]

It's a fair point TS and after one year of Wallace we can't give a definite answer either way whether we've improved in regards to developing our young cubs to become the players the should become.

Cogs is a difficult example as he's missed virtually all of last year with his "pelvic instability" problem and didn't start full training to later on in the pre-season. How much that has affected his kicking I don't know. He's still has to manage himself carefully so it doesn't flare up again. At least by round 1, 2006 he should have a full preseason behind him which is a big factor these days.

As for the other players coming through (drafts 2000-2002) it's mixed news and not one A-grader.

Hyde - improved out of site although still just average. The head fracture interrupted his year.
Rodan was apparenty like Hyde flying during preseason before doing his knee so still a mystery how he'll go under Wallace. Looked shot under Spud.
Schulz had the D&D/TAC incident before injurying his ankle. Needs to prove a point to the Club.
Pettifer - better than previous years (not hard mind you).
Krakouer - inconsistent week by week. Starring roles mixed with disappearing acts.
Newman - got spanked a couple of times as a back pocket but has rediscovered his run. Up with Bowden as our leading rebounder out of defensive 50.
Moore (rookie 2003-2004; onto senior list in 2005) - played mainly VFL.

2003 - only in their 2nd year:

Tuck - a relevation this year although he's more a late developer like his dad.
Raines, Jackson, Foley (rookie) - yo-yoing at this stage.
Archibald, Gilmour - unseen at AFL. Archibald had OP in his first year.

2004 - too early to judge. Potentially our first A-grader in Deledio but emphasising the word "potentially"
Deledio and Thursfield (rookie) are the ones who have progressed to the AFL the quickest and haven't looked out of place.

I would like another preseason under Wallace before judging if our cub development is where it should be. Another year of 11 skill sessions a week rather than the paltry 3 under Spud and more gym work to build up young bodies.

Remember also that Geischen and especially Spud left a huge mid-age hole in our list. Most of our guys are either 27+ or 21 and under. Pretty hard to develop a young side when you draft so few youngsters in the first place . This is the time when this missing "generation" should of been hitting their peak and making up the main chunk of our playing list. At least with the last two drafts we went for youth and more youth so they won't be in so precious supply that we build up unrealistic expectations on the few we have and we can objectively sort out the good ones and let go of the ones that don't make it. We now need to keep doing this from now on. Thankfully Wallace has said previously no first round picks will be traded away.

It's a fact of life in footy that a number of them won't be around in 2-3 years. IMO picking up 3 long term players (about 1 kid for every 2 draft picks) from each draft should be the pass mark to improve and become/stay a good side and when you have an opportunity like we did last year with 4 first rounders you should obviously do even better than that in terms of numbers and quality. IIRC from 1997-2002 which is 6 drafts and something like 42 picks (including rookies) we have ended up with just 11 long-term players which is 1 in 4 draft picks and that stat is inflated because we've still got 5 players from the 2000 draft alone. So that was 6 blokes from the other 5 drafts - just 1 long-term player for every 6 draft picks  . So much for development of kids at Tigerland during that time  .

[letsgetiton!]

about cogs, now he is a worry. from what i know his condition will never get better it just has to be managaed. now i know he is a gutsy hard at it player and can take a strongh contested mark also but his disposal , even in his jdm yr has never been a a satisfactory level and for this reason i believe the tigers should use his as trade bait and get a decent vic back from WA. i know many would think im crazy but his condition wont allow him to play at peak levels for an entire season ever again, his courage is there but skills not and his skill i dont think will improve as its all realted to his kicking action and injuries. i believe in the best interest of the club we should trade him and use his high reputation to get someone who can benefit the club better in the long term. maybe im just crazy but thats how i see it.

[Tiger Spirit]

Injury shminjury X.  What you say sounds like reasonable logic and I agree that we need to improve our list, but it takes more than better players to build a good club.  Apart from anything else, I don’t know that RFC would want to contend with the backlash.

Maybe I’d be wrong on that, but the ‘first we use them and then we chuck ‘em out when they’ve served their purpose’ mentality wouldn’t come across as a good PR move, or say anything good about the culture of our footy club.  I know things change with time and that it’s all business now, blah, blah, flippin’ blah, but some of us (i.e. me ) are naïve enough to think that there’s still a speck of a human element left in this competition.  After everything that’s gone on before, such a thing would seem like a huge back flip, by all concerned.

And any credibility RFC may have built up in recent times could easily disappear if they contemplated going down that track, unless something has dramatically changed in recent times.  Because what could it possibly say, of any club, when a player, because he performs better than most around him, is then, whether he’s ready for it or not, seen as some sort of saviour in hard times and chosen to promote and be the face of his Club?  Then, in the space of 2 seasons he’s shown the door before his value ‘potentially’ diminishes?

I don’t know about you X, but I’d be a bit confused as to what this footy club’s all about, if that were to happen and, despite this being the 21st century, I could have a problem with that sort of treatment, and maybe others might too.

Where do you get these ideas from?

[Captain__Blood]

It's a fair point TS and after one year of Wallace we can't give a definite answer either way whether we've improved in regards to developing our young cubs to become the players the should become.

Cogs is a difficult example as he's missed virtually all of last year with his "pelvic instability" problem and didn't start full training to later on in the pre-season. How much that has affected his kicking I don't know. He's still has to manage himself carefully so it doesn't flare up again. At least by round 1, 2006 he should have a full preseason behind him which is a big factor these days.

As for the other players coming through (drafts 2000-2002) it's mixed news and not one A-grader.

Hyde - improved out of site although still just average. The head fracture interrupted his year.
Rodan was apparenty like Hyde flying during preseason before doing his knee so still a mystery how he'll go under Wallace. Looked shot under Spud.
Schulz had the D&D/TAC incident before injurying his ankle. Needs to prove a point to the Club.
Pettifer - better than previous years (not hard mind you).
Krakouer - inconsistent week by week. Starring roles mixed with disappearing acts.
Newman - got spanked a couple of times as a back pocket but has rediscovered his run. Up with Bowden as our leading rebounder out of defensive 50.
Moore (rookie 2003-2004; onto senior list in 2005) - played mainly VFL.

2003 - only in their 2nd year:

Tuck - a relevation this year although he's more a late developer like his dad.
Raines, Jackson, Foley (rookie) - yo-yoing at this stage.
Archibald, Gilmour - unseen at AFL. Archibald had OP in his first year.

2004 - too early to judge. Potentially our first A-grader in Deledio but emphasising the word "potentially"
Deledio and Thursfield (rookie) are the ones who have progressed to the AFL the quickest and haven't looked out of place.

I would like another preseason under Wallace before judging if our cub development is where it should be. Another year of 11 skill sessions a week rather than the paltry 3 under Spud and more gym work to build up young bodies.

Remember also that Geischen and especially Spud left a huge mid-age hole in our list. Most of our guys are either 27+ or 21 and under. Pretty hard to develop a young side when you draft so few youngsters in the first place . This is the time when this missing "generation" should of been hitting their peak and making up the main chunk of our playing list. At least with the last two drafts we went for youth and more youth so they won't be in so precious supply that we build up unrealistic expectations on the few we have and we can objectively sort out the good ones and let go of the ones that don't make it. We now need to keep doing this from now on. Thankfully Wallace has said previously no first round picks will be traded away.

It's a fact of life in footy that a number of them won't be around in 2-3 years. IMO picking up 3 long term players (about 1 kid for every 2 draft picks) from each draft should be the pass mark to improve and become/stay a good side and when you have an opportunity like we did last year with 4 first rounders you should obviously do even better than that in terms of numbers and quality. IIRC from 1997-2002 which is 6 drafts and something like 42 picks (including rookies) we have ended up with just 11 long-term players which is 1 in 4 draft picks and that stat is inflated because we've still got 5 players from the 2000 draft alone. So that was 6 blokes from the other 5 drafts - just 1 long-term player for every 6 draft picks  . So much for development of kids at Tigerland during that time  .

Well said. Our list is still very poor. And needs a number of rebuilding years yet.

Your sides core is made up the players whom have played 80-200 games and are aged about 23-28. We have the likes of Morrison, Hilton, Tivendale... Our list is like bookends. We have very little in the middle, some class up the top and a few promising kids.

Other the next 3 years you hope our core will develop from: Hall, Tuck, Pettifer, Cogs, Newman, Hyde, Krak, Rodan - aged 25-22 currently.

 The likes of Gaspar, Kellaway, Graham, Richo, Stafford, Campbell, are all 29+ and entering their last seasons. It is the leadership group and mature players: Brown, Johnson, Simmonds (sigh), Bowden, Chaffey whom must lead the club in the future.

We have a decent group of 21-18's: Hartigan, Schultz, Roach, Archilbad, Pattison, Foley, Thursfeilds, Jackson, Gilmour, Meyer, Polo, Tambling, Limbach, Mcgaune, Deledio. but they will get us no where unless you have a decent core and leadership group. And then only, maybe half of those will make it as 100+ game AFL players.

Long way to go yet.

[mightytiges]

Agree CB. Our list is totally out of whack because of that mid-age gap left by Geischen's and Spud's idiotic recruiting bar one year. It's going to take the whole of Wallace's 5 years just to get our list back into proper balance. Deledio, Tambling, Meyer, Pattison and Thursfield for instance will still just be around 22-23 years of age by then with Cogs, Tuck, Newman, Hyde and co becoming the base of that core group you speak of CB. Yep we've got a long way to go.

[Tiger Spirit]

It's a fact of life in footy that a number of them won't be around in 2-3 years. IMO picking up 3 long term players (about 1 kid for every 2 draft picks) from each draft should be the pass mark to improve and become/stay a good side and when you have an opportunity like we did last year with 4 first rounders you should obviously do even better than that in terms of numbers and quality. IIRC from 1997-2002 which is 6 drafts and something like 42 picks (including rookies) we have ended up with just 11 long-term players which is 1 in 4 draft picks and that stat is inflated because we've still got 5 players from the 2000 draft alone. So that was 6 blokes from the other 5 drafts - just 1 long-term player for every 6 draft picks . So much for development of kids at Tigerland during that time .

Seems your stats support my views MT, to some degree at least.  You don’t expect that every player will make it, but you should be able to expect a better return than what your stats tell us.

The ‘missing’ or lack of mid-range players is obviously a concern and it’s unlikely that we can expect any dramatic improvement until that area improves and we have a more balanced list.

[mightytiges]

You don’t expect that every player will make it, but you should be able to expect a better return than what your stats tell us.

That's so true TS but not when you waste so many picks on recycled types such as Biddiscombe, Sampson, Hudson, Houlihan, Fleming, Nichols, Blumfield, Fletcher, Weller and Marsh. Then there was also Hilton and Stafford in exchange for our first round picks.

[Tiger Spirit]

 

[Cain]

Some of you blokes must be taking some weird Sh*ite. Who would wanna play for Richmond if we used Cogs as trade bait ?
So damn quick to jump off. The bloke couldnt play for a year !

[Moi]

I used to think that maybe Cogs was capable of more than what he’s shown this season, but instead he seems destined to follow in the footsteps of others within the team who have played the game at one pace their whole career.

Who says?  Lay off our young kids - i had a go at someone who was having a go at Tivs earlier in the year, and they were so feral i'm thinking they'd start having a go at Cogs soon.  Seems this has started already and very disappointing to hear.  I'm pretty sure one day he will live up to your lofty expectations 

[Tiger Spirit]

Yeah, you’re right Moi, if I’m going to be critical of anyone I should be critical of myself for having such expectations.

I wouldn’t be too worried about me going around bagging Cogs though, if that’s what you’re thinking.

In another post I also went on and said something about the Club’s ability to develop players, which, after thinking about what I had originally posted, was more the point I was trying to get at, rather than wanting to criticise Cogs.

[Tiger Spirit]

To have an expectation of someone is a compliment.  If that person then gives up on you then that could be more of an issue than having the expectation in the first place.  And I reckon that over the years, Richmond supporters have just about given up expecting anything of our players.  There have always been those players who have started well, or shown glimpses here and there, but that’s been about it, for the most part.  I guess it’s harder in a team that’s lived in the cellar for so long.

Regardless of what stage teams are at in their development though, all coaches would need to have some expectations of their players that they can and will improve.  Whether they actually do or not is mostly up to the players themselves, although coaching and other things obviously come into it as well.

Some players seem to come into the AFL already knowing, to some degree, what they are capable of and others need someone to see it in them and help them get that out of them.  Expectations can have a negative impact when they are either too low or too high for a player’s capacity and so can depend on their level of self-belief and confidence.

Seeing some of the players drafted in the last year or so, it becomes glaringly obvious that what we have really lacked in past seasons is players with a true competitive edge to them, with expectations of themselves to match their capacity.  Over the years, too many of our players have instead appeared too content to stay within their comfort zone and, even worse, been allowed to stay there, regardless of their true capabilities.  That’s poor development/recruiting/coaching, you name it, because we’ve had players with understated expectations of themselves, or who have been just plain unmotivated, going around unchecked, season after season.

We’re either in the business of getting the best out of players, who are prepared to learn and make the necessary sacrifices, or we just want to be nice to them and pay them lots of money for the privilege.  Recent recruiting suggests that we’re heading in the direction of recruiting players with a competitive edge to them and with some confidence to match.  Amen to that.

Hopefully, if recent examples are anything to go by, we may soon have a chance of seeing some players reach the level they’re capable of.   Chris Hyde is an example of a player who needed to see what he was capable of, before he could believe it of himself.  Unless someone else saw that in him, and encouraged him enough in that direction, he may never have had the courage or the opportunity to test himself and find out what else he is actually capable of.  Shane Tuck is probably in a similar category.

That’s the positive side of expectations and seeing something better in a player.  Cogs is a player I’ve had high expectations of because of what he’s achieved in such a short time.  Unfortunately, injury hasn’t helped him, but despite our track record with developing players, it’s unfair to judge anything about Cogs, based on this season, other than to say it’s a credit to himself that he’s probably even out there.

You don’t need to have any expectations of Deledio, because he’s so competitive that he drives himself.  He has the confidence and self-belief that allows him to do that, yet is level headed enough to take it all in his stride.

Tambling, on the other hand, while being just as competitive and driven, seems to have put pressure on himself because he hasn’t done as well as some of the other high draft picks.  I don’t know anyone, not even me, who could expect anything more from any first year player, other than to just learn from the experience.  Maybe if he let go of any expectations and just went out to learn and enjoy playing the game, instead of being frustrated that he hasn’t been able to control the way the season has turned out so far, things might happen a little easier for him.  If he hasn’t already, hopefully he will soon realise that you can’t always control the way things turn out, so you might as well go with the flow and make the most of the situation you’re in.

Like everything else, I guess only time will really tell anything about our ability to develop players.  At least it’s encouraging that there seems to be some method to our recruiting now.  And if this season is anything to go by then there’s better to look forward to.