Carlton, Collingwood and Hawthorn

[Francois Jackson]

lions are probably not such a good example to use as they got the pick of Fitzroy when they absorbed them.

Sydney success was set up by Roos, a self confessed fan of the money ball principles.

true re: lions but they still found those players i mentioned and doubt they would have won 3 without those guys.

The swans of today IMO wouldnt have won a flag without some of the guns they recruited through the rookie draft or later picks.

AL i have an issue with monkeyball when they are clearly mediocre players like thomas, petterd and just plain rubbish like hampson. Think they got the houli, maric one right and grigg was okay in his first few years but we have let him play senior footy without trying to upgrade him. He should be our Kyle Cheney for the hawks. When required is in the team but his first picked most times along with newman another hack.

Albert, let me ask you who in our list can you see helping us win a flag outside of jack, dusty, maric, cotch, lids, and do you think we can win one with the way we are going.

[Penelope]

ok different points to address.

monkeyball as you call it. roos used the principles to bring success to the swans.

for arguments sake we will say it has not been a success for us.

2 clubs apply the same principles, one is successful, one is not.

so does that mean the principle is flawed, or the implementation by one of the clubs?
you could point out our massive failures using the draft in previous years and argue that it proves that using the draft is flawed, yet most people would acknowledge it has been the implementation that is the problem.

re question about other players. no doubt you have listed the cream of the crop. generally it is not the top the top players that seperate sides, but the bottom ones. if you look at it rationally, there have been some serious potatoes get themselves premiership medallions over the years. except for sides like brisbane and geelong (who got a prettty good run with father son picks untill they changed the rules), most premiership sides are not full of champions, but are good teams because of their middle tier role players.

on the the question of weather we can win a flag, i honestly dont know.

despite all the gloom and doom preached by some, the side has improved under hardwick and we have managed to do what this club has not done in a long long time, play in two final series in a row.

this year was a truely mixed grill. half a season of unadulterated crap and with very little change to the 22 that ran out each week, a winning streak that happens very rarely in this comp. this is despite most of us questioning, and with good reason, hardwicks response to the poor form dished up. i think it is fair to say that we all shown to be wrong on that front.

basically, rather than carry on like the world is about to end because i haven't got my instant gratification in the trade period i will take a wait and see approach.

....and if we dish up what we did at the start of this season, i will simply drop off and concentrate on other things that i have control over,as i did early on this season, rather than become a miserable old git, .

[Loui Tufga]

Same poo, different year.
Last year the whiney whingers went nuts that we traded our second round pick, now this year there going nuts because we didn't.
To be honest I can't see where the club could have done more this trade period.
A...we still have little to no trade currency (without giving away key players) and B we had no players nominate us as there preferred team!!
It's fanciful to think we're going to get good picks for our dud players! FFS people even wanted to trade for Robinson and Hunt who both look like there now going to be delisted!!

[Francois Jackson]

I agree with you Albert on some points but its not the fact we lost its how we lost in that final. I was there and witnessed it but did i get upset or let it bother me. Negative. It was nothing like the previous year where i was mighty peeed off. i have lost interest in footy this year and im tipping as each year passes il lose more. Its not the same and its run like a bordello.

The trade period has been disappointing, but not because we didn't get trengrove or frawley. They tried with jack and im content the medical staff finally got something right. Roos that shark and the dees tried to shaft us whether WP likes to admit it or not.

IMO we failed because we didn't attempt to upgrade our picks by throwing up grigg and conca.  Im sure im alone on this also but i really thought we could have had a crack at garlett with a late pick. He has runs on the board and has one bad year along with many of his other teammates at visy park. We need a small forward desperately and by not attempting to deal with the blues means we are still not confident in recruiting these types because our culture is still poor, and we are afraid they will run off. i would back garlett over a FJ special at pick 60 any day of the week.

As for you luigi not sure what your on about to be honest. No one cared we gave away our second rounder its who we gave it up for. There is a big difference.

Your comments have proven to be incorrect about not having player currency. Exhibit A Harry Labamba, Exhibit B Stanley

[the claw]

stuff me, some on here cannot be kept happy. Trade for players and the whingeing about not going to the draft for a young bloke begins.
Go to the draft for young blokes and the whingeing about not trading for a player begins.

ah yet some of us not many mind complain about the lack of balance in our recruiting  the lack of process and the clear lack of success.

we need to embrace trade/fa period its a way to grow and improve yopur list in a big way. we also need to stay in the nd every yr . if we are not going to be overly active in the trade period going for players then it was important we improve our draft position if only going to nd. this is just plain common sense.

as for proceess ffs 1 junior last yr and a plethora of mature players and this yr no mature players  yet we will  go to the nd hopefully this yr we will take more than one junior.
mate you cant blame people for going crook they are all over the shop.

anyway it no longer matters if we werent locked and loaded last yr we sure as hell are this yr the list is reaqdy to go and it wont matter who we get in the nd.  this is not a pee take its a serious read of their actions. in fact after the last 3 yrs one can only come to this conclusion.

they either have it right or they seriously overestimate the list. im pretty sure i know which one it is.

[the claw]

No club can win a flag with so many busts. I dont know the facts on this and im sure claw can provide them, but i would say its never been done.

Swans, Cats, Hawks, Lions all had golden eras in the last 15 years and the take a look at where some of their guns were selected.

Just had a quick look at the lions and voss, black and aker were not top 30 picks.

It just amazes me that hardwick cant see how pathetic FJ is and has been since day 1. He is the biggest coach killer that bloke.

brissie is intersting.

heres a breakdown of where their 2003 premiership team came from.

state/zone selections - voss, akermanis, keating, white,
1st rounders -  lappin p/s 2, mcgrath 13, power 5, leppitsch p/s 4,
2nd rounders - black 31, brown f/s 30, charman 29, hadley 22,
3rd rounders - hart 33, pike 33.
4th rounders - bradshaw,
psd draft - mccrae
rookie draft - copeland

fitzroy merger - johnson, ashcroft not sure with ashcroft.

trades - michael for 44 and molloy.  lynch  for nd 7, carracella for  nd 10

whn trading they were prepared to give up plenty to get plenty.
they found players from all available areas, almost half of their team came from the 2nd round thru to the rookie draft.
they used their zone selections well.

to me they utilised all areas well in building the side. its what i go on about well rounded recruiting utilising all areas to best advantage. we must do well in trades we must take part in f/a and we must find players in all areas of the national  and rookie drafts.

just to finish i think peoples trust is misplaced when they say but we have made finals for two yrs.
rather than hang my hat on that i ask are we really any better placed than we were in say 06 when we finished 9th.  middling is middling and the list weaknesses just dont disappear because you have made finals.to think that is delusion at its worst.

[Chuck17]

For those who were wondering finipoohink = finish, I think

[Loui Tufga]

I agree with you Albert on some points but its not the fact we lost its how we lost in that final. I was there and witnessed it but did i get upset or let it bother me. Negative. It was nothing like the previous year where i was mighty peeed off. i have lost interest in footy this year and im tipping as each year passes il lose more. Its not the same and its run like a bordello.

The trade period has been disappointing, but not because we didn't get trengrove or frawley. They tried with jack and im content the medical staff finally got something right. Roos that shark and the dees tried to shaft us whether WP likes to admit it or not.

IMO we failed because we didn't attempt to upgrade our picks by throwing up grigg and conca.  Im sure im alone on this also but i really thought we could have had a crack at garlett with a late pick. He has runs on the board and has one bad year along with many of his other teammates at visy park. We need a small forward desperately and by not attempting to deal with the blues means we are still not confident in recruiting these types because our culture is still poor, and we are afraid they will run off. i would back garlett over a FJ special at pick 60 any day of the week.

As for you luigi not sure what your on about to be honest. No one cared we gave away our second rounder its who we gave it up for. There is a big difference.

Your comments have proven to be incorrect about not having player currency. Exhibit A Harry Labamba, Exhibit B Stanley

Difference between La'bumyamumma  and Stanly is someone wanted them!!
It was touted earlier this year Geelong were also keen on Vickery and Griff, clearly the club thought they were worth a little more than pick 21 and I must say at this point I agree. Again it's a case of people either completely overrating our players or completely underrating! Maybe we should have hung onto McGuane for one more year, Geelong would have been all over us with pick 21
As for no one caring that we gave up our second rounder last year? I'll let you read through the 32 pages of the Hampson thread and you can make your own mind up as to how many people we're stoked with that decision 
 

[Francois Jackson]

Claw I think you will find similar picks in the cats hawks and swans premiership teams. It's why I'm so frustrated that we can't seem to find any genuine talent in our list outside of the top 15 and quote frankly that's not going to deliver you success

It's concerning when the club doesn't feel the need to upgrade FJ and add in genuine development and assistant coaches. Maybe it's just me but mcqualter and bailey bloody hell. Surely we can do better than them. The decision to start the year an assistant coach short from the previous year was wrong.

The finest ruck coach out there is monkhurst. Look what he does with all the talls. Wish the club had some balls and started getting on the front foot and poaching some of these types. Ben Rutten please. Scarlett etc all went elsewhere.

Do we not have the money?? Must be the problem or they are just plain dumb

[Owl]

For those who were wondering finipoohink = finish, I think

Im stuffing fascinated LOL wtf is that word and how the hell did it come about ?  I want to use it in conversations.

[Judge Roughneck]

If someone wants Stanley for top 25 pick

I find it hard to believe there would have been no interest in Ellis/Vickery type for top 15 pick or a decent pick upgrade situation

[Chuck17]

For those who were wondering finipoohink = finish, I think

Im stuffing fascinated LOL wtf is that word and how the hell did it come about ?  I want to use it in conversations.

Claw used it and I just had a guess to what it means

just to finipoohink peoples trust is misplaced when they say but we have made finals for two yrs.
rather than hang my hat on that i ask are we really any better placed than we were in say 06 when we finished 9th.  middling is middling and the list weaknesses just dont disappear because you have made finals.to think that is delusion at its worst.

[Go Richo 12]

New poll should be started," Where do you think the Tigers will finipoohink next year?"

[the claw]

Claw I think you will find similar picks in the cats hawks and swans premiership teams. It's why I'm so frustrated that we can't seem to find any genuine talent in our list outside of the top 15 and quote frankly that's not going to deliver you success

It's concerning when the club doesn't feel the need to upgrade FJ and add in genuine development and assistant coaches. Maybe it's just me but mcqualter and bailey bloody hell. Surely we can do better than them. The decision to start the year an assistant coach short from the previous year was wrong.

The finest ruck coach out there is monkhurst. Look what he does with all the talls. Wish the club had some balls and started getting on the front foot and poaching some of these types. Ben Rutten please. Scarlett etc all went elsewhere.

Do we not have the money?? Must be the problem or they are just plain dumb

agree ive been saying it for yrs to succeed you have to get all areas right, bloody hell there arent that many ways available to you to build your list you cant afford to regularly get a large area of your recruiting wrong.

and on vickery what is he worth or should he be worth. if i asked most richmond people it would be a top 10 pick, yes there are plenty of realists on this site which is great.  if i ask others it aint much at all. personally i think he would have got us a pick inside of the top 20.

ive given my reasons plenty of times why i think we should have traded one of vickery, griffiths possibly even mcbean, it isnt rocket science we dont need 3 ruck/fwds. what we do need is two types of genuine high quality tall fwds.  imo it should be the list priority at the nd. imo the list is in dire shape in all areas bar one when it comes to talls. that one is ruck/fwd.
intrading a tall id be bringing in at least 4 talls this national and rookie draft. even with that sort of intake we would not have the numbers imo.

to me we are screaming out for a very high quality kpf and a quick smart hard working hit up type. the backline is screaming out for a quality key defender to partner rance. the backline is actually screaming out for a lumumba type or heath shaw type kyle cheney would have done.
we still search for a ruckman especially if hampson continues to spud it up.
we still chase after a sml fwd its an area that is deplorable for quality and right type.
as the club states we need mids but please lets not chase purely outside mids. hallahn imo would have fit the bill nicely as far as replacing jackson goes.

cmon the holes are everywhere most actually acknowledge them, but when it comes to suggesting we trade out players or delist players who have done little in 4 or more yrs we get this digging in of the heels.

carlton, collingwood, hawthorn all in different phases yet they have no hesitation in trading out players , richmond well our mantra is lets hang on for one more yr just maybe the player will come good. our trouble is exacerbated by the fact that one more yr becomes another 3 and before we know it we have very ordinary players who have been around for 6 7 yrs of mediocrity.this is a constant theme.

said this before but i would have been happy to take  or at the least go damn hard at.
garlett - would have cost us pick 70.
frawley - f/a
gwilt f/a.
hallahan - 3rd round picks when we fell out of chasing greenwood we really should have been going hard at this kid.imo we should have been going after him well before the trade period began.
this is exactly what we got hartley for didnt we. identify those who can play who are not getting a regular game.gcs stole this bloke did we even look at him.

trade out a excess player for a good draft pick and we have the best of both worlds, address list needs very cheaply and stay heavily involved in the nd.
there was great opportunity to grow and improve our list and we failed to take that opportunity.

the only conclusion we are happy with our lot and are indeed locked and loaded.

i bet my bottom dollar we will now do what we always do and that is load up with more than our fair share of delisted players in the nd and rookie drafts.

[Phil Mrakov]

Gwilt is a pooty