Author Topic: List analysis and needs for 2021  (Read 6886 times)

Online Andyy

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9981
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2020, 08:56:54 AM »

Bolton the new Edwards. Won't be 25+ every week, but they hurt and his evasion skills make him a clearance king. Wouldn't surprise me if he has an underrated career as well. I see A grade potential in spades.

Baker is B+ borderline A grade now in my opinion. Remember he is a small defender - hardly the most appreciated role in any team. Not mega star like Cotch/Dusty/Jack/Rance but every bit as solid as Vlastuin or Houli.

Rioli has been underwhelming since 2017. Disappointing.

Balta will be a gun we can all see that.

Graham is a B grader but does a job.

Stack I think will be delisted eventually.


We will trade future needs into the team and draft for Max talent. Plenty to suggest we can stay competitive imo.

Offline Hard Roar Tiger

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 8099
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2020, 09:21:22 AM »
Stopped reading at Bolton not being projected as an A grader
He oozes A grade potential

Baker, Balta and Bolton all top 10 in b&f.
Shorty, at 24, won it.
Graham will replace Cotchin.
You cannot replace Dusty but with 4 years in contract, we wont need to for a while.
Jack will most likely be replaced through trade/free agency.
We will need another key defender, this may also be through trade/free agency.

Key position players are perfect to trade for, they come under the promise of finals/flag success but have already had the 4-6 years to mature at another club.

Claw makes some reasonable points but they are all woven into irrelevant rants.
Therein lies the problem and why Blair Hartley is the list manager
“I find it nearly impossible to make those judgments, but he is certainly up there with the really important ones, he is certainly up there with the Francis Bourkes and the Royce Harts and the Kevin Bartlett and the Kevin Sheedys, there is no doubt about that,” Balme said.

Offline the claw

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 4259
  • For We're From Tigerland
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2020, 05:25:06 PM »
Stopped reading at Bolton not being projected as an A grader
He oozes A grade potential
sheesh we get sensitive about our players.

Yep god forgive me i dont see Bolton as an elite player. Yes he has skills, pace, is starting to find a bit of ball has evasive skills that he needs at his size and he may well become a very good player for us but i dont see him being an elite player.

As stated i think he could in time do what Edwards does for us only time will tell that.

I think the point is being lost here. people talk about our under 23's, as pointed out we have 18 with the exception of higgins. 18 players is getting close to half your list and only 6 have managed to play more than 20 games. apart from Balta who imo has already replaced Rance  i dont see most of them replacing our vets.

Where is the next grimes or even Astbury for that matter. Where is the next Martin or Cotchin where is a dion Prestia coming thru.Where is the next JR do we even have a junior kpf on the list.

We can argue all day about where and how we rate some players weather they are A B OR C graders no one is arguing that those mentioned havent made a contribution or saying they cant play.But they are not going to replace our quality older players in the main.
There really is a lack of top end talent on the list coming thru imo. And yes being successful has made that very hard to address but it does not change the fact.

Short is a very outside reciever just won a B/F people here continually complain about Houli but there is not a lot of difference between the two are either elite players i dont think so maybe elite in the simple role they are asked to perform.

Baker sheesh if hes an elite player then most of the players in the AFL are.Yes hes been very good in what he does and performs welll within his limitations i actually like him a lot but an A grader please.

Bolton i have mentioned is he an elite player on any list i dont think so.I might be wrong on this one it wont be the first time.

Graham elite i dont think so, as stated and as a player i have regularly backed him in. he is a good solid inside citizen he is nowhere near what Cotchin has produced over the yrs and he doesnt have the tools to do what Cotchin does.

Rioli disappointing.
Castagna wont go there yeah he performs the defensive things to the satisfaction of the coaches.Besides he is 24.

At the end of the day all im saying is somewhere in the near future we will need to get some real high quality into the system
Mids Tall defenders and tall fwds if people disagree thats all good its all just opinion.




Offline WilliamPowell

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 40319
  • Better to ignore a fool than encourage one
    • One Eyed Richmond
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2020, 05:52:35 PM »
So you are saying Claw, that  Edwards isn't elite?

Sorry but....

He is elite, saw important he is when he came back this year

Easily in our top 5 most important players

He would be a walk up start at any Club in the AFL
"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

from the song "Don't Walk Away" by Pat Benatar 1988 (Wide Awake In Dreamland)

Online georgies31

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 3961
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2020, 05:54:43 PM »
Stopped reading at Bolton not being projected as an A grader
He oozes A grade potential
sheesh we get sensitive about our players.

Yep god forgive me i dont see Bolton as an elite player. Yes he has skills, pace, is starting to find a bit of ball has evasive skills that he needs at his size and he may well become a very good player for us but i dont see him being an elite player.

As stated i think he could in time do what Edwards does for us only time will tell that.

I think the point is being lost here. people talk about our under 23's, as pointed out we have 18 with the exception of higgins. 18 players is getting close to half your list and only 6 have managed to play more than 20 games. apart from Balta who imo has already replaced Rance  i dont see most of them replacing our vets.

Where is the next grimes or even Astbury for that matter. Where is the next Martin or Cotchin where is a dion Prestia coming thru.Where is the next JR do we even have a junior kpf on the list.

We can argue all day about where and how we rate some players weather they are A B OR C graders no one is arguing that those mentioned havent made a contribution or saying they cant play.But they are not going to replace our quality older players in the main.
There really is a lack of top end talent on the list coming thru imo. And yes being successful has made that very hard to address but it does not change the fact.

Short is a very outside reciever just won a B/F people here continually complain about Houli but there is not a lot of difference between the two are either elite players i dont think so maybe elite in the simple role they are asked to perform.

Baker sheesh if hes an elite player then most of the players in the AFL are.Yes hes been very good in what he does and performs welll within his limitations i actually like him a lot but an A grader please.

Bolton i have mentioned is he an elite player on any list i dont think so.I might be wrong on this one it wont be the first time.

Graham elite i dont think so, as stated and as a player i have regularly backed him in. he is a good solid inside citizen he is nowhere near what Cotchin has produced over the yrs and he doesnt have the tools to do what Cotchin does.

Rioli disappointing.
Castagna wont go there yeah he performs the defensive things to the satisfaction of the coaches.Besides he is 24.

At the end of the day all im saying is somewhere in the near future we will need to get some real high quality into the system
Mids Tall defenders and tall fwds if people disagree thats all good its all just opinion.

Mate let's be honest Martin is once in generation player.You touched on it winning 3 flags in 4 years plays it's part not having those top line picks , but that's what our current list is build for to win flags.Only natural we will drop down in the pack like most successful sides have , but there is quality kids  that a being kept out because of our success.All we need to do is involve and keep adding in our side and hit the draft especially KP.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 08:51:22 PM by georgies31 »

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98251
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2020, 06:10:53 PM »
Gary Buckenara Richmond AFL list analysis: Tigers can win premiership three-peat.

Paywall: https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/richmond/gary-buckenara-analyses-richmonds-list-after-the-2020-season/news-story/6d7c9f46a81411a8888c46de2cc2fc03

Gary Buckenara analyses Richmond’s list after the 2020 season

Richmond is already up there with the great Brisbane and Hawthorn teams of the modern era. And a three-peat is possible.

With three premierships in four years Richmond has created its own dynasty and this team comfortably sits alongside the great Brisbane (2001-2004) and Hawthorn (2012-2015) teams of the modern era.

Winning a three-peat is not out of the question, in fact the Tigers will be premiership contenders for at least the next three years. But as we know, talent alone doesn’t guarantee success so Trent Cotchin, Damien Hardwick and the leaders need to keep the hunger alive, which is one of the great challenges. It’s why those Brisbane and Hawthorn teams are so revered.

This Richmond group has maintained that desire to win and belief in each other and it’s why history will look back on them in the same light as those great sides.

These Tigers players have already entered the history books by winning back-to-back premierships but the opportunity is there to become one of, if not the most successful and decorated team in the club’s history.

What has been most impressive about this group hasn’t been the ability to assemble a team of superstars. It’s been the development and improvement of players who weren’t top draft picks but have become high-quality AFL players. They’re the reason for the sustained success.

While the Tigers have their A-graders like Cotchin, Dustin Martin, Jack Riewoldt, Shane Edwards and Tom Lynch, what sets the most successful teams apart from the rest is the strength of the lesser-lights and the guys who are the 15-22 ranked players in the best 22. The improvement from Liam Baker, Jayden Short, Ivan Soldo, Noah Balta, Shai Bolton and Jake Aarts (despite him only playing in the qualifying final) to not only fill roles but become very damaging players has meant there was no drop off when Cotchin, Prestia and Toby Nankervis were injured and Edwards and Bachar Houli weren’t there.

It’s a credit to the recruiting and list management teams who have executed a plan and identified players capable of filling roles in Hardwick’s game style and they’ve done it without having access to high draft picks. Richmond has not had a pick inside the top 12 since 2015. Baker (2017), Short, Soldo (both 2014) and Aarts (2018) were rookie draft picks, Balta was a pick 25 and Bolton was pick 29. Talk about nailing the draft.

Jason Castagna (rookie, 2014), Kane Lambert (rookie, 2014), Marlion Pickett (mid-season draft, 2019), Nathan Broad (pick 67, 2015) and Jack Graham (pick 53, 2016) are other examples of key players who weren’t high draft picks but have become seriously good AFL players.

As much as Hardwick is a great coach and the superstars get the fanfare, a lot of credit for Richmond’s success must go to the recruiting, list management and development staff, as well as the fitness and medical teams who have done a great job to keep the best players on the park. These have been Richmond’s secret weapons.

LIST NEEDS
Riewoldt has just turned 32 and given the success of the Riewoldt-Tom Lynch set-up, and with no real genuine developing key forwards on the list, I’d be looking to draft one or two to begin to plan for life after Riewoldt.

Overall Richmond has a very balanced group and the strength and depth of the list is evident. That means they can target specific experienced players in the trade and free agency periods and continue to stockpile young talent in the draft.

TRADE TARGETS
Richmond isn’t a major player in the trade period, with the focus on keeping this brilliant list together. They were linked early to North Melbourne’s Jared Polec, who’d be a handy get to inject more speed on the wing. If the Kangaroos pay a portion of his contract, Polec would be a potential steal as I can see him playing a valuable role. The Tigers’ quick ball movement would suit him. Unlikely to cost much in a trade.

UNTOUCHABLES
Cotchin, Martin, Edwards, Riewoldt, Lynch, Prestia, Baker, Balta, Castagna, Lambert, Pickett, Short, Bolton, Houli, Prestia, David Astbury, Mabior Chol, Riley Collier-Dawkins, Dylan Grimes, Jack Higgins, Daniel Rioli, Ivan Soldo and Nick Vlastuin.

TRADE BAIT
Jack Higgins has been linked to St Kilda and is assessing his options. He’s an extremely talented small forward who I rated as the best small forward/midfielder in his draft in 2017 and had him rated as a top-10 talent, even though he slipped to No.17. He’s an untouchable in my book. He’s obviously had health challenges that have impacted his career so far, so I wouldn’t read much into him being overtaken by the likes of Jake Aarts this year. I still see him playing a valuable role at Richmond and eventually pushing into the midfield and given he’s contracted, it would need to be a compelling trade for the Tigers to consider it. The Saints would need to offer a top-20 pick at a minimum.

Oleg Markov has already found a new home at Gold Coast as he searches for more senior opportunities, while players like Ryan Garthwaite and Jack Ross could attract interest late and be tempted by the offer of more senior games. Ross has impressed me as a big-bodied midfielder who’s handled the pressure of AFL football and a club like Carlton, desperate for this type of player, might inquire but the Tigers will do all they can to keep him.

LIST BREAKDOWN

A-grade: Martin, Lynch, Cotchin, Edwards, Astbury, Grimes, Prestia, Riewoldt

B: Baker, Castagna, Graham, Houli, Lambert, McIntosh, Nankervis, Pickett, Rioli, Short, Soldo, Vlastuin

C: Aarts, Broad, Caddy, Chol, Eggmolesse-Smith, Garthwaite

Developing (with A-B grade potential): Balta, Bolton, Collier-Dawkins, Higgins, Ross, Stack

Developing: Coleman-Jones, Cumberland, Dow, Martyn, Miller, Naish, Nyuon, Ralphsmith

What the ratings mean:

A-grade: Elite player on any AFL list

B: Top 10-18 player on most lists

C: An 18-30 player on a list

Developing: Aged 21 or under


CRYSTAL BALL

With a league-high eight A-graders, 12 B-graders and six players aged 21 or under with the potential to develop into A or B-graders, Richmond’s list is the envy of almost every club and will see the Tigers challenging strongly for more premierships over the next three years at least. This has been a wonderful era and while the players have already cashed in with three flags in four years, why stop now? Keep the hunger alive because the chance to be part of such a strong team doesn’t come along in the AFL often. The opportunity to further etch their names in Richmond folklore can drive this group to truly special things.

Offline Diocletian

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 19433
  • RWNJ / Leftist Snowflake - depends who you ask....
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2020, 06:16:25 PM »
Pfft...Gary Buckenara...another glass half-full nuffy.... :shh
"Much of the social history of the Western world, over the past three decades, has been a history of replacing what worked with what sounded good...."

- Thomas Sowell


FJ is the only one that makes sense.

Offline camboon

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 2445
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2020, 06:28:40 PM »
Hard to argue when we have won three in four years
What’s  better the having A and B grade players is having an A grade team where players sacrifice their games for the the team ( no 30 poss ave players)

I’m going to focus on the positives at Tigerland, if we wait long enough the negatives will come

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98251
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2020, 01:49:39 PM »
Matt Rendell's list analysis for Richmond

LISTEN: https://player.whooshkaa.com/episode?id=756957

Offline Owl

  • Magnificent Bastard
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 7012
  • Bring me TWO chickens
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2020, 05:14:43 PM »
Where is Claw?
Not much call for my style of posting and critiques of the club. In anyones language most things are being done well but theres always room for improvement i suppose.

Biggest concern for me is most of our high quality is placed in the vets bracket. Players enter the vet bracket at age 29 at start of the season for me

Our 9 vets have played 1707 games at an average of 189.6 games and i dont think we have them covered in any of the other brackets  that is mature players 25-28 development players 22-24 or juniors aged 21 and under.

Would dearly love for us to go hard in coming drafts for the next Martin and cotchin. to compound this problem Lambert and  Edwards both vets and Prestia is 28 arent spring chickens.

 Imo we need to be proactive in finding the next JR. We just dont have a high quality junior KPF on the books.

Both Astbury and Grimes are now vets and Rance will officially be off the list.  There is only currently Balta coming thru and hes played just 30 games, so targeting another high quality junior kpd would be high on my list as well.

I count 13 juniors and between them they have played just 76 games for an average of 5.8 games between them,  this is exacerbated if you take out Balta 30 games and Stack 26games it leaves just 20 games between 11 players there is going to be an aful lot of development needed to get them close to what is needed as far as experience goes.

Imo target quality draft picks if at all possible or target high quality needs thru trades. I reckon the age demographic of the list says this is now where we are at.In saying that you have to ask is there one more flag left in the vets and mature types.
I was actually thinking very much the same thing.  Start getting the succession plans in place, the problem is, as always, having the picks / trade currency to pull it off.
Lots of people name their swords......

Offline Owl

  • Magnificent Bastard
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 7012
  • Bring me TWO chickens
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2020, 05:27:19 PM »
Oh then I read Buckenara saying pretty much similar thing but a bit more positive about our players Craw.
Lots of people name their swords......

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98251
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2020, 03:21:16 PM »
Looking at our list breakdown, key forwards and mids will be on our shopping list this draft IMV.


Age profile ... at start of season 2021 (April)

32: Edwards, Houli, Riewoldt
31: Cotchin
30: Astbury
------------------------
29: Grimes, Lambert, Martin, Pickett
28: Broad, Caddy, Lynch, Prestia
27: McIntosh, Vlastuin
26: Aarts, Nankervis
25: Short, Soldo
24: Castagna, D.Rioli
23: Baker, Chol, Graham
-------------------------
22: Bolton, Eggmolesse-Smith, Garthwaite, Naish
21: Balta, Coleman-Jones, Colina, Collier-Dawkins, Miller, Stack
20: Cumberland, Martyn, Ross
19: Dow, Nyuon, Ralphsmith
18: M.Rioli Jnr + other draftees

Veterans:  5
Prime:    19
Youth:    17+



Height (cm):

Rucks [5]: Colina (213), Soldo (204), Coleman-Jones (200), Chol (200), Nankervis (199) 

Big Talls [2]: Lynch (199), Nyuon (196)

Talls [6]: Astbury (195), Miller (195), Balta (194), Grimes (193), Riewoldt (193), Garthwaite (192)

Utilities [2]: Broad (192), McIntosh (191)

Tall Mids [7]: Collier-Dawkins (189), Ralphsmith (188 ), Martin (187), Ross (187), Vlastuin (187), Caddy (186), Martyn (186)

Mids [10]: Cotchin (185), Pickett (184), Cumberland (183), Dow (182), Edwards (182), Naish (182), Castagna (181), Graham (181), Eggmolesse-Smith (180), Houli (180)

Smalls [9]: D.Rioli (179), Stack (179), Lambert (178 ), Short (178 ), Aarts (177), Bolton (175), Prestia (175), Baker (173), M.Rioli Jnr (173)

Offline Tigeritis™©®

  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 9657
  • Richmond, Premiers 2017.2019.2020
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2020, 06:20:26 PM »
Is there a way of transplanting Riewoldt's footy brain into Chol’s body? 

If it were actually possible the he would be the best forward in the league.
The club that keeps giving.

Offline Owl

  • Magnificent Bastard
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 7012
  • Bring me TWO chickens
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2020, 06:30:38 PM »
He is a strange one to pick Marbs.  He looks so hot and cold,  If he could just get sharper on following up and overall awareness of what is going on or his response to it.  Like I watched him stop when one of our other players grabbing a hot ground ball, instead of keeping his momentum and bumping the chaser who was right on his hammer. 
Lots of people name their swords......

Offline one-eyed

  • Administrator
  • RFC Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 98251
    • One-Eyed Richmond
Re: List analysis and needs for 2021
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2020, 06:43:07 PM »
Rob Harding on SEN discussing our list:

* Teams that have had the success Richmond has had in recent years usually are in a good position but have other clubs coming for their players with offers of $$$.

* Richmond has managed their salary cap well. They've lost some players but no one major. Credit to Blair Hartley.

* Convincing players to take less after success is a bit easier. Same thing happened at Geelong & Hawthorn. Richmond though appears to have done this earlier in 2018 when their players to took less to allow Lynch to come in.

* At pick 17 expect the Tiges to look at a young key position player with Astbury, Grimes and Riewoldt 30+ and Lynch 28. The choice may depend on where Balta ends up playing. If he remains a key defender or ends up moving to become a key forward or ruckman given his athleticism.

Audio: https://player.whooshkaa.com/episode?id=760713