Author Topic: Assistant coaches [merged]  (Read 66996 times)

Online Tiger Khosh

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2021, 01:00:03 AM »
We do have the small matter of the punt road redevelopment to navigate through for the next few years……

Offline Rampsation

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2021, 09:58:42 AM »
Id think paying a $350,000 tax to get in a couple of good people would be worth it.

Online WilliamPowell

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2021, 10:21:56 AM »

I don’t think the “richer” clubs give a stuff about soft cap as much as we do.


PS. Interestingly that we don’t have access to see who is part of the footy department any more.

Just so you know not ONE club is paying over the soft cap limit this year

That's why the "rich" clubs have requested an increase on close to $1mil. Poorer club don't want more than $250k-$300k

You and others keep focusing on assistant coaches but seem to refuse to accept that ALL clubs have made significant cuts. As I've said many times other clubs have cut in other areas of their footy departments but that doesn't mean they haven't cut. In Sydney their biggest cuts are reportedly in their academy program. Do you get that? I know it doesn't suit your narrative but do you understand that?

And as for "who cares" mantra. Do you know how much the tax is? How it is worked out?

But to help you here you go. If we were to pay the previous $9.3 Mil then the Club would need to pay a further $2.376mil in tax. That would go to others clubs. You are clearly OK with that right? I mean who cares

Further to that if revenues wise we were to have the same revenues as we did in 2019 and paid above the cap then the club would in fact make a loss of over $1mil. That's OK too right? You wouldn't complain,  wouldn't worry right? Because really who cares we are a rich club

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Online WilliamPowell

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2021, 10:24:32 AM »
Id think paying a $350,000 tax to get in a couple of good people would be worth it.

Ramps that would mean you would be spending just over a further $450k

Tax is $0.75 for every dollar spent over the soft cap of $6.123 million
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Offline Diocletian

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2021, 11:53:40 AM »
#rebelcomp. :shh
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Offline Jobba

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2021, 12:34:30 PM »

I don’t think the “richer” clubs give a stuff about soft cap as much as we do.


PS. Interestingly that we don’t have access to see who is part of the footy department any more.

Just so you know not ONE club is paying over the soft cap limit this year

That's why the "rich" clubs have requested an increase on close to $1mil. Poorer club don't want more than $250k-$300k

You and others keep focusing on assistant coaches but seem to refuse to accept that ALL clubs have made significant cuts. As I've said many times other clubs have cut in other areas of their footy departments but that doesn't mean they haven't cut. In Sydney their biggest cuts are reportedly in their academy program. Do you get that? I know it doesn't suit your narrative but do you understand that?

And as for "who cares" mantra. Do you know how much the tax is? How it is worked out?

But to help you here you go. If we were to pay the previous $9.3 Mil then the Club would need to pay a further $2.376mil in tax. That would go to others clubs. You are clearly OK with that right? I mean who cares

Further to that if revenues wise we were to have the same revenues as we did in 2019 and paid above the cap then the club would in fact make a loss of over $1mil. That's OK too right? You wouldn't complain,  wouldn't worry right? Because really who cares we are a rich club

I also remember how poor financial management for a prolonged period had the Club needing to establish the Fighting Tiger Fund not too long ago

Offline Tigeritis™©®

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2021, 12:47:00 PM »
Just so you know not ONE club is paying over the soft cap limit this year
So you say. Even if true that won’t be the case next season that’s for sure.

You and others keep focusing on assistant coaches but seem to refuse to accept that ALL clubs have made significant cuts. As I've said many times other clubs have cut in other areas of their footy departments but that doesn't mean they haven't cut. In Sydney their biggest cuts are reportedly in their academy program. Do you get that? I know it doesn't suit your narrative but do you understand that?
So you say again but the reality is that the same club Sydney that you mentioned has increased their football department by adding at least two quality people to it, Pyke and our former fitness guy Rob Innes.  :rollin.
We can’t “afford” to keep people but other clubs seem to add extra people we cannot afford  :rollin

And as for "who cares" mantra. Do you know how much the tax is? How it is worked out?
Yes, I read the Age article by Jake Niall and watched this YouTube video
https://youtu.be/Nr2ouKNuVVo

But to help you here you go. If we were to pay the previous $9.3 Mil then the Club would need to pay a further $2.376mil in tax. That would go to others clubs. You are clearly OK with that right? I mean who cares
Further to that if revenues wise we were to have the same revenues as we did in 2019 and paid above the cap then the club would in fact make a loss of over $1mil. That's OK too right? You wouldn't complain,  wouldn't worry right? Because really who cares we are a rich club


I never said to pay the same as last year. I said we shouldn’t skimp in footy department spending and ensure we keep the people other clubs seem to have the money to employ ie. Innes, McCrae, Caracella, Leppitsch etc. I’m not saying they didn’t want to leave but we didn’t replace them 


Now I answered your questions how about actually answering the questions I actually asked. It’s not that hard.  :rollin

I will ask again.

What’s the alternative? Skimp on recruiting? Skimp on player development?
Where did that get us for 30 years?

Whatever it takes to have quality people around the club so the ones we currently have don’t have to double or triple their load because that’s how burn out occurs or diminished focus on all players individual requirements to further development. This game is about percentages. This isn’t the time to be losing quality people to other clubs.
How is West Coke, Geelong, Essendrug and Swans able to increase their off field team or at the least keep it the same?

How is Hawthorn going to be able to afford to pay Clarkson out and still keep assistants? Do you truly think they will stay under soft cap?

I don’t think the “richer” clubs give a stuff about soft cap as much as we do.

Why don’t we have access to see who is part of the footy department any more? That information was on the app but now has conveniently disappeared. I can still see it on all other clubs websites except our club and lions.
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Online WilliamPowell

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2021, 01:07:55 PM »

I will ask again.

What’s the alternative? Skimp on recruiting? Skimp on player development?
Where did that get us for 30 years?

Whatever it takes to have quality people around the club so the ones we currently have don’t have to double or triple their load because that’s how burn out occurs or diminished focus on all players individual requirements to further development. This game is about percentages. This isn’t the time to be losing quality people to other clubs.
How is West Coke, Geelong, Essendrug and Swans able to increase their off field team or at the least keep it the same?

How is Hawthorn going to be able to afford to pay Clarkson out and still keep assistants? Do you truly think they will stay under soft cap?

I don’t think the “richer” clubs give a stuff about soft cap as much as we do.

Why don’t we have access to see who is part of the footy department any more? That information was on the app but now has conveniently disappeared. I can still see it on all other clubs websites except our club and lions.

I have answered your questions time and time again but because you don't like the answers you either say I haven't answered or belittle my answer with one of these  :rollin

Cutting $3mil out of footy department spend always meant people were going to go.

Have we skimped on recruiting?  No, There's been no changes

Have we made skimped on development? There are have been changes there as development coaches have taken on assistant line coaching as well. Which is the same as most clubs in the competition. This isn't "so I say" this is what I've read, researched.

Other clubs may have bought new assistants in but they have cut in others area whether that is the number of heads or what they are being paid. Not sure why this so so hard for you to at the barest on minimums so hard for you to at least acknowledge

The facts are Leppa and McCrae were out of contract the others were not. Keep the the 2 out of contract and flick the others and you pay off all of them. 

I have no idea why we don't know the who makes up the footy department now. Why don't you ask the Club?

But let's wait and see what our financials throw up this year and perhaps then you will see why the
Club has made some really tough and clearly unpopular to some calls around spend this season. Benny Gale flagged it at the beginning of the year how tough this season was going to be financially and I reckon he's going to spot on with it & it's highly likely going to be worse than he foreshadowed.

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Offline Tigeritis™©®

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2021, 01:36:11 PM »
Wow thank you for answering some questions but not you didn’t answer all of them.

I think you have your head in the sand WP if you think West Coke, Essendrug, Sydney and Geelong lost anyone from their footy department.

We didn’t keep Innes. Sydney could afford him why? Is he not getting paid at Sydney? Is Pyke also there for free? 
We couldn’t afford to keep McCrae but Hawks can. We couldn’t afford to keep Leppitsch either so he chose to help the club and walk. Will be interesting if he stays out of footy next season.
We have not replaced any of these guys.

McCrae has gone to Hawks, how is that possible with decreased cap spending? Is he there for free?

What about Hawthorns decision to not honour Clarksons contract next season and beyond without it effecting their soft cap?  Do they really seem worried by soft cap pressure  :rollin

BTW I have asked the club via email weeks ago as to why we don’t have that football Department information anymore on the app or website but as yet I haven’t received a reply nor have they changed the website back so we can see that information.
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Offline Francois Jackson

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2021, 02:53:18 PM »
Spot on. We have completely stuffed this up and forgot about what areas made us great.

Laughable to see what the Swans have done.
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Offline georgies31

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2021, 04:41:12 PM »
For me the club let it's guard down to many  good people left yeah soft cap hurt us and fine etc , but before Rutten and Blake both left pre covid and not replaced.Proof is in the pudding when we invested end of 201.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 05:08:07 PM by georgies31 »

Offline sugark

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2021, 05:02:41 PM »
We have a coach thats highly paid and didnt take a pay cut, thats impacted the assistants.  We didnt cut deep in other areas like some others, particulalry recruiting.

We really needed to keep at least one of Fly or Leppa, as recommended in the 2016 review, Dimma needed experienced assistants around him, allowing him to focus on being a good coach and not trying to be everything, unfortunately we ended up with nearly the least experienced assistant coaching panel

Clubs with coaches paid less could afford to retain or add assistants

Offline georgies31

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2021, 05:09:07 PM »
We have a coach thats highly paid and didnt take a pay cut, thats impacted the assistants.  We didnt cut deep in other areas like some others, particulalry recruiting.

We really needed to keep at least one of Fly or Leppa, as recommended in the 2016 review, Dimma needed experienced assistants around him, allowing him to focus on being a good coach and not trying to be everything, unfortunately we ended up with nearly the least experienced assistant coaching panel

Clubs with coaches paid less could afford to retain or add assistants

A you sure he didn't take a pay cut ?.

Offline Jobba

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2021, 05:44:20 PM »
Wow thank you for answering some questions but not you didn’t answer all of them.

I think you have your head in the sand WP if you think West Coke, Essendrug, Sydney and Geelong lost anyone from their footy department.

We didn’t keep Innes. Sydney could afford him why? Is he not getting paid at Sydney? Is Pyke also there for free? 
We couldn’t afford to keep McCrae but Hawks can. We couldn’t afford to keep Leppitsch either so he chose to help the club and walk. Will be interesting if he stays out of footy next season.
We have not replaced any of these guys.

McCrae has gone to Hawks, how is that possible with decreased cap spending? Is he there for free?

What about Hawthorns decision to not honour Clarksons contract next season and beyond without it effecting their soft cap?  Do they really seem worried by soft cap pressure  :rollin

BTW I have asked the club via email weeks ago as to why we don’t have that football Department information anymore on the app or website but as yet I haven’t received a reply nor have they changed the website back so we can see that information.

Knowing people within the industry with multiple clubs I can categorically state that what you have said is blatantly not true. EVERY SINGLE TEAM in the comp had to cull staff, but each team focused on different areas. As an example, I think you’ll fine a lot of the WA and SA team culled sponser based staff because it was thought that they could survive within a five year period with a focus on each state’s individual medium to large businesses (not 10 teams fighting for sponsors in VIC).

You also seem to think that every AC, trainer, footy dept. employee is worth the same. This is again not true; winning three flags in four years, four straight Preliminary finals always comes with an added financial burden. Teams look to raid successful clubs and often you have to match to keep your key staff.

Re: Lepptich, think you’ll find that a) he was looking for time outside of footy and b) he walked so other could keep their jobs. It’s not a surprise that Leppa has ended up in the media on multiple fronts. With McCrae I will think you’ll find that the Footy Dept have never stopped a coach from going to another club with a better opportunity anyway (Marty Clarke, Ben Rutten; to an extent Blake Caracella although Blake is on the margins).

Last thing I’d say is that the club, 10 years ago was struggling financially on the back of poor Management for a number of years. The Club actively worked to get out of debt (Fighting Tiger Fund) and are now in the black. It’s - to be brutally honest - absolutely nearsighted to expected the Club (after taking so long to get out of the red + 2 Covid impacted seasons) to then spend money for the sake of it; and in doing so giving a financial benefit to other clubs via the tax.

I know a poor year seems to make things worse than a successful year, but the club has got itself where it has with prudent management. Throwing that all away through financial mismanagement is a shortcut to worse outcomes.

Offline Tigeritis™©®

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Re: Assistant coaches [merged]
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2021, 06:30:29 PM »
Wow thank you for answering some questions but not you didn’t answer all of them.

I think you have your head in the sand WP if you think West Coke, Essendrug, Sydney and Geelong lost anyone from their footy department.

We didn’t keep Innes. Sydney could afford him why? Is he not getting paid at Sydney? Is Pyke also there for free? 
We couldn’t afford to keep McCrae but Hawks can. We couldn’t afford to keep Leppitsch either so he chose to help the club and walk. Will be interesting if he stays out of footy next season.
We have not replaced any of these guys.

McCrae has gone to Hawks, how is that possible with decreased cap spending? Is he there for free?

What about Hawthorns decision to not honour Clarksons contract next season and beyond without it effecting their soft cap?  Do they really seem worried by soft cap pressure  :rollin

BTW I have asked the club via email weeks ago as to why we don’t have that football Department information anymore on the app or website but as yet I haven’t received a reply nor have they changed the website back so we can see that information.

Knowing people within the industry with multiple clubs I can categorically state that what you have said is blatantly not true. EVERY SINGLE TEAM in the comp had to cull staff, but each team focused on different areas. As an example, I think you’ll fine a lot of the WA and SA team culled sponser based staff because it was thought that they could survive within a five year period with a focus on each state’s individual medium to large businesses (not 10 teams fighting for sponsors in VIC).

You also seem to think that every AC, trainer, footy dept. employee is worth the same. This is again not true; winning three flags in four years, four straight Preliminary finals always comes with an added financial burden. Teams look to raid successful clubs and often you have to match to keep your key staff.

Re: Lepptich, think you’ll find that a) he was looking for time outside of footy and b) he walked so other could keep their jobs. It’s not a surprise that Leppa has ended up in the media on multiple fronts. With McCrae I will think you’ll find that the Footy Dept have never stopped a coach from going to another club with a better opportunity anyway (Marty Clarke, Ben Rutten; to an extent Blake Caracella although Blake is on the margins).

Last thing I’d say is that the club, 10 years ago was struggling financially on the back of poor Management for a number of years. The Club actively worked to get out of debt (Fighting Tiger Fund) and are now in the black. It’s - to be brutally honest - absolutely nearsighted to expected the Club (after taking so long to get out of the red + 2 Covid impacted seasons) to then spend money for the sake of it; and in doing so giving a financial benefit to other clubs via the tax.

I know a poor year seems to make things worse than a successful year, but the club has got itself where it has with prudent management. Throwing that all away through financial mismanagement is a shortcut to worse outcomes.
I’m only talking about the Football Department spending not administration or sponsorship etc. which isn’t part of soft cap spending so it’s a pointless argument. Looking at West coasts footy dept doesn’t seem they lost anyone that important to me as they’ve kept all the important people they had last season as did Geelong.
I’m very well aware of our financial prudence since Gale has been CEO and how much he has turned us around. I am also aware and mentioned that Leppitsch walked to help us out too.

My question is why we haven’t sought to keep the assistants that have helped our success considering other clubs have poached them, so my question is why can they afford them and we can’t? 
Innes and McRae prime examples of what I am talking about.
We have NOT replaced the outgoing assistants so we have more inexperienced guys doing double the roles. Where as Geelong have not lost one assistant in their coaching panel from last season and the Swans adding to their panel.
We will see if Leppitsch will stay in the media or get picked up by another club (rumour that he will be at the blues as Head of footy. If that’s true then the cheats will be another club in the list of clubs that will have employed our assistants that we apparently cannot afford due to soft cap.

If it’s so difficult in the current climate to keep assistants and support staff in the footy department the why are clubs taking our people that we can’t keep due to soft cap? 

We have lost Caracella, Leppitsch, McRae and Innes and haven’t replaced them. While other clubs have the money in the soft cap to employ them. McRae didn’t leave for better opportunity because he’s doing the exact same role he did for us but the only difference is that he’s at a much smaller club than ours so your point is that he moved for better opportunities is invalid.
No one has been able to answer how the Hawks will be able to pay all their support staff in the footy department whilst paying out Clarkson. McRae must be offering his services for free. 

If Teague gets the tap on the shoulder and the Cheats are able to get Lyon or Clarkson whilst paying out Teagues contract on top of Leppitsch if the rumours are true, how do you think the blues will be able to fit a new big name coach and Leppitsch in the soft cap?
Sydney weren’t bothered and bolstered their football department by adding better people.

Meanwhile, Richmond are petrified of the soft cap and keep losing quality people that other clubs can pay for :rollin
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