Author Topic: Coburg news  (Read 78688 times)

Offline Smokey

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #660 on: March 18, 2013, 06:40:38 PM »

Orren Stephenson (13 disposals, 10 kicks,  3 handballs, 4 marks, 45 hit-outs)


TBH, I like these figures most of all!  :thumbsup

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #661 on: March 18, 2013, 06:48:03 PM »
Agreed Smokey good set of numbers

Offline Coach

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #662 on: March 18, 2013, 06:55:47 PM »

Orren Stephenson (13 disposals, 10 kicks,  3 handballs, 4 marks, 45 hit-outs)


TBH, I like these figures most of all!  :thumbsup

TBH am not impressed. Browne got 101 hitouts in a game last year :lol

Gigantor

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #663 on: March 18, 2013, 07:00:07 PM »
Coach was that against the Robinvale midgets?

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #664 on: March 18, 2013, 08:52:43 PM »
Understand where Coach is coming from - hit out stats in the VFL can be misleading. Would like to know who the BigO was up against.

Senior player or some 18-20 yo?

Granted you can only beat your opponent but ....
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Offline tigs2011

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #665 on: March 18, 2013, 09:37:47 PM »
Yessssssssss the Big O 45 hit outs. VFL Premiers once we ditch these Coburg scrubs. Depth like you've never seen it before lads. :clapping

Offline Smokey

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #666 on: March 18, 2013, 10:56:25 PM »

TBH am not impressed. Browne got 101 hitouts in a game last year :lol

Really?  What game?  I wasn't actually referring to the hitouts, more the rounded set of of figures that suggest he involved himself more than other 2nd string ruckman we have had over the past few years but I suppose the Gus love affair runs long and and deep.

Offline Coach

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #667 on: March 18, 2013, 11:54:20 PM »
It was a 3rds game from memory but still impressive.

Let's be honest, you don't see many Coburg games. Last year you made some very uninformed comments on our ruckman who were playing reserves footy. One of those ruckman destroyed the guy you are now talking up. I might like Gus as bloke but at least I can admit he's not much chop as a #1 ruckman at the top level. Is a decent option as a back up. Your hate will not allow you to admit he was very close to the best ruckman in Australia that wasn't getting regular AFL games in 2012. Seriously, he had 60+ hitouts in a game last year and was named in the bests very often. Adelaide picked him up because he has ability. His efforts in pre-season have been good. If you think Graham wasn't getting 13 touches and 4 marks at Coburg then you're definitely mistaken. Andy Browne did that often. Stephenson is the new Addam. Why can't we ever wait until the season proper  ;)

Offline tigs2011

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #668 on: March 19, 2013, 11:49:17 AM »
Comparing 3rds to 2nds like comparing a turd to a chocolate bar.  :shh

Offline Smokey

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #669 on: March 19, 2013, 11:57:41 AM »

Let's be honest, you don't see many Coburg games. Last year you made some very uninformed comments on our ruckman who were playing reserves footy. One of those ruckman destroyed the guy you are now talking up. I might like Gus as bloke but at least I can admit he's not much chop as a #1 ruckman at the top level. Is a decent option as a back up. Your hate will not allow you to admit he was very close to the best ruckman in Australia that wasn't getting regular AFL games in 2012. Seriously, he had 60+ hitouts in a game last year and was named in the bests very often. Adelaide picked him up because he has ability. His efforts in pre-season have been good. If you think Graham wasn't getting 13 touches and 4 marks at Coburg then you're definitely mistaken. Andy Browne did that often. Stephenson is the new Addam. Why can't we ever wait until the season proper  ;)

Ok then, here are some informed comments about the "very close to the best ruckman in Australia that wasn't getting regular AFL games in 2012":

In 2012 Graham played 1 AFL game and 17 VFL games, Stephenson played 8 AFL games and 7 VFL games.  Their respective averages for those VFL games are:
Graham - 7.3 kicks, 7.6 handballs, 5.2 marks, 2.7 tackles, 28 hitouts.  His highest hitout number for the season was 48, not 60+ as mentioned.
Stephenson - 7.3 kicks, 7.4 handballs, 5.1 marks, 3.4 tackles, 44.6 hitouts.  His highest hitout number was 60.

So on bare stats they rated the same for kicks, handballs and marks, Stephenson slightly better in tackles and much better in hitouts.

In 2012 Graham was named in the best players in 7 of his 17 games, an average of once every 2.4 games he played.  Stephenson was named in the best in 5 of his 7 games, an average of once every 1.4 games.

So Stephenson was named in his team's best players much more on average than Graham.

In 2012 at least 14 VFL ruckmen received votes in the JJ Liston Trophy with Tom Bellchambers topping the list with 9 votes.  Stephenson received 7 votes polling in 5 of his 7 games.  Graham never received a vote in any of his 17 games.

I don't know what season you refer to when you say Graham destroyed Stephenson because they never faced off in 2012.  And Graham wasn't named in the best in either of the games against Geelong but his opponent both times in 2012 - Dawson Simpson - was named in the best in one of those games.  If the "destroying" occurred prior to 2012 then we are starting to not compare apples with apples because prior to that Graham had the advantage of learning and developing in the AFL system since 2007, Stephenson had never had that opportunity up to then.  And one thing Graham had over many other clubs (not Geelong though) in the VFL in 2012 was that he was getting a decent chop out in the ruck for most of the year from Browne (who was in the best players a number of times himself but not as often as Graham).  When I researched these stats I realised that most of the VFL clubs went with one ruckman on many occasions - in theory this should have made it much easier for Graham to 'shine'.

To be fair to Graham, I didn't include Stephenson's 4 finals games in 2012 because Graham didn't have the same opportunity to show his 'true' ability under the added pressure of finals football but it is interesting to note that Stephenson was named in the best players for Geelong in 3 of their 4 games including the Grand Final.

Angus Graham might be the best bloke that ever lived but his football achievements and record do not attest to the fact of him being "very close to the best ruckman in Australia that wasn't getting regular AFL games in 2012" no matter how you look at it.  And I didn't have to see any of the Coburg games to come up with plenty of facts to support my position.  My definition of "a decent option as a backup" is someone who is capable of competing satisfactorily at the top level when required and even if they aren't capable of beating their opponent, at least compete to give your team a chance.  Graham was never able to do that to anywhere near the level required so I will stay with my opinion that he wasn't "a decent option as a backup" at all.  And none of that opinion is based on "hate" but all on fact and observation.  Let's see how he steps up for Adelaide.

Offline Coach

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #670 on: March 19, 2013, 01:44:41 PM »
Graham had 63 hitouts in a game against Werribee. Not sure where you got your stats from but we do have our own club people who focus on only our players in those games. Their stats are more accurate. http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2012-05-08/the-coburg-report

"Angus Graham might be the best bloke that ever lived but his football achievements and record do not attest to the fact of him being "very close to the best ruckman in Australia that wasn't getting regular AFL games in 2012" no matter how you look at it"

How was he not in the top few? Andrew Browne as the sole ruckman in 2011 gave similar output to what Stephenson did last season. This isn't about Angus Graham hatred or love, it's about the Stephenson love in. He's done nothing our previous ruckman aren't capable of. After the Allstar game he was pathetic, now he could play every 4 weeks according to MT. I mean FFS, the thing he has over Gus consistently is 2nd efforts but even Gus had a crack some days. I've admitted Gus is not much good at the top level so why can't you admit Stephenson isn't either?
 Enough of this:
the rounded set of of figures that suggest he involved himself more than other 2nd string ruckman we have had over the past few years
Because as you proved with your "stats", that statement isn't true at all. He's in the same mold as Graham. A backup and nothing more unless the comp ever goes back to playing 2 rucks

Offline tigs2011

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #671 on: March 19, 2013, 02:08:17 PM »
In fairness to Graham's average he had Big Browney and Derickx rucking with him.*





*No idea on Stephenson he could have had an army of rucks playing with him in the VFL.

Offline Smokey

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #672 on: March 19, 2013, 02:10:26 PM »
Graham had 63 hitouts in a game against Werribee. Not sure where you got your stats from but we do have our own club people who focus on only our players in those games. Their stats are more accurate. http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/2012-05-08/the-coburg-report

Official VFL site:

http://www.sportingpulse.com/round_info.cgi?c=1-118-0-204557-0&pool=1&fixture=123661714&a=MATCH

Pretty sure their stats aren't going to be too far off the mark.

We had a total of 50 hitouts (Graham 42 Derickx 5), Werribee had a total of 49 hitouts (Daw 27 Sullivan 14) and Werribee won by 51 points.  Graham wasn't named in our best players.  I know which set of figures sounds far more plausible.

Quote

"Angus Graham might be the best bloke that ever lived but his football achievements and record do not attest to the fact of him being "very close to the best ruckman in Australia that wasn't getting regular AFL games in 2012" no matter how you look at it"

How was he not in the top few? Andrew Browne as the sole ruckman in 2011 gave similar output to what Stephenson did last season. This isn't about Angus Graham hatred or love, it's about the Stephenson love in. He's done nothing our previous ruckman aren't capable of. After the Allstar game he was pathetic, now he could play every 4 weeks according to MT. I mean FFS, the thing he has over Gus consistently is 2nd efforts but even Gus had a crack some days. I've admitted Gus is not much good at the top level so why can't you admit Stephenson isn't either?


I'm not espousing a Stephenson love-in but I am challenging your assertion that Graham was very close to the best ruckman.  I believe there were a number of ruckmen that were better, Graham was serviceable at the VFL level, nothing more.  He had good support, experience, size and strength on his side and still couldn't make himself stand out.  And I didn't bother checking the other interstate comps - SANFL and WAFL especially.  This year we'll see how he stacks up against a few of those boys.  I'm prepared to give Stephenson some leeway given this is only his 2nd year in the system and he already has shown he outperforms Graham at the level below.

Quote
Enough of this:
the rounded set of of figures that suggest he involved himself more than other 2nd string ruckman we have had over the past few years
Because as you proved with your "stats", that statement isn't true at all. He's in the same mold as Graham. A backup and nothing more unless the comp ever goes back to playing 2 rucks

I believe my stats did prove that Stephenson is better than Graham at that level - time will tell if he is a better senior backup option than Graham but Graham had 6 years to prove himself and failed miserably, Stephenson at least deserves a couple of seasons before we pigeon-hole him as Gus MkII.

Offline Smokey

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #673 on: March 19, 2013, 02:13:50 PM »
In fairness to Graham's average he had Big Browney and Derickx rucking with him.*





*No idea on Stephenson he could have had an army of rucks playing with him in the VFL.

Yeah, he had Dawson Simpson partner him in most VFL games T2011 and Simpson's stats were similar to Graham's.  Also had Vardy and Blicavs at times.

Offline Coach

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Re: Coburg news
« Reply #674 on: March 19, 2013, 02:31:49 PM »
Haha. You lost all balance when you said Graham was only serviceable at VFL level. Horrible comment, especially when you never saw him play there. I actually like what BigO brings to the table as a backup. He is a gun at VFL level. So was Graham. But there ain't much difference between what they can do and Stephenson is 30, not a young ruckman. He's been around a long time