David Gourdis [merged]

[Danog]

Did Cox make an immediate impact?  Did Riewoldt make an immediate impact?  Did Ablett make an immediate impact?

Get your head out of your ass, Jackstar.  This is what the rookie list is for.

Get you head out,
Just went back through the AFL year book, they did actually..
Before you start typing in the the future , check you facts clown

Cox played 17 games at the Age of 20

Ablett played 12 games in his first year, aged 18

Reidwoldt played every game in his 2nd year  at the age of 19.

I didn't ask you how many games they played.  I asked if they had an immediate impact.  In fact, they were complete crap in their first year.  Cox averaged 8 posessions, 2 marks, 0 goals, and 1 tackle per game.  Ablett averaged 8 posessions, 1 mark, less than 1 goal, and 2 tackles per game.  Riewoldt averaged 9.5 posessions, 4 marks, 0.3 goals, and 0.5 tackles per game, and this is a #1 draft pick we're talking about.

Also, how is it Putt's fault that Wallet / Rawlings didn't give him a game?  We now know that Wallet hardly ever spoke to the players individually via the Post article.  Our coaches' handling of our players' development has been shocking.  You would be the first one to admit this.  Of course the players won't be superstars from the get-go, but it's the coaches job to put them on the park.

P.S - I don't appreciate being called a clown and being told to "check my facts" by somebody that can't even comprehend what I'm asking.

[Jackstar is back]

Did Cox make an immediate impact?  Did Riewoldt make an immediate impact?  Did Ablett make an immediate impact?

Get your head out of your ass, Jackstar.  This is what the rookie list is for.

Get you head out,
Just went back through the AFL year book, they did actually..
Before you start typing in the the future , check you facts clown

Cox played 17 games at the Age of 20

Ablett played 12 games in his first year, aged 18

Reidwoldt played every game in his 2nd year  at the age of 19.

I didn't ask you how many games they played.  I asked if they had an immediate impact.  In fact, they were complete crap in their first year.  Cox averaged 8 posessions, 2 marks, 0 goals, and 1 tackle per game.  Ablett averaged 8 posessions, 1 mark, less than 1 goal, and 2 tackles per game.  Riewoldt averaged 9.5 posessions, 4 marks, 0.3 goals, and 0.5 tackles per game, and this is a #1 draft pick we're talking about.

Also, how is it Putt's fault that Wallet / Rawlings didn't give him a game?  We now know that Wallet hardly ever spoke to the players individually via the Post article.  Our coaches' handling of our players' development has been shocking.  You would be the first one to admit this.  Of course the players won't be superstars from the get-go, but it's the coaches job to put them on the park.

P.S - I don't appreciate being called a clown and being told to "check my facts" by somebody that can't even comprehend what I'm asking.

P.S. I dont appreciate being told to get my head out my arse.

[Danog]

Did Cox make an immediate impact?  Did Riewoldt make an immediate impact?  Did Ablett make an immediate impact?

Get your head out of your ass, Jackstar.  This is what the rookie list is for.

Get you head out,
Just went back through the AFL year book, they did actually..
Before you start typing in the the future , check you facts clown

Cox played 17 games at the Age of 20

Ablett played 12 games in his first year, aged 18

Reidwoldt played every game in his 2nd year  at the age of 19.

I didn't ask you how many games they played.  I asked if they had an immediate impact.  In fact, they were complete crap in their first year.  Cox averaged 8 posessions, 2 marks, 0 goals, and 1 tackle per game.  Ablett averaged 8 posessions, 1 mark, less than 1 goal, and 2 tackles per game.  Riewoldt averaged 9.5 posessions, 4 marks, 0.3 goals, and 0.5 tackles per game, and this is a #1 draft pick we're talking about.

Also, how is it Putt's fault that Wallet / Rawlings didn't give him a game?  We now know that Wallet hardly ever spoke to the players individually via the Post article.  Our coaches' handling of our players' development has been shocking.  You would be the first one to admit this.  Of course the players won't be superstars from the get-go, but it's the coaches job to put them on the park.

P.S - I don't appreciate being called a clown and being told to "check my facts" by somebody that can't even comprehend what I'm asking.

P.S. I dont appreciate being told to get my head out my behind.

I wouldn't have to tell you these things if statements like "If they cant make an impact from day one, show them the door." weren't your bread and butter.

[mightytiges]

And FWIW, even though this post is about Gourdis and you have mentioned Putt you can apply the same theory and be just as correct on Gourdis.  Taking too long to show anything at all - project players or not, they should be regular Coburg senior players by now if they are going to make it in the AFL.  Time to cut our losses on both.

Agree smokey. It seems Hardwick has brought the Hawthorn criteria to us. If you haven't cemented your spot in the AFL seniors within 5 years then bye-bye (Patto). We only have 9 Tigers older than 23 now and it's only that many due to existing contracts.

Likewise if you haven't at least cemented your spot in the Coburg seniors within 2 years then bye-bye.

[tigerlily]

Gourdis played 6 senior games and 4 ressies this year, in the Bendigo Bombers game round 7 ( about the week before he did his hammy) he played on Hurley and Daniher 12 kicks 7 hb 6 tackles 2 goals beat both the young Bombers defenders, was injury plagued rest of the year. Your'd think that kind of performance would have cemented him in the seniors and keep in mind RFC was giving Hughes, Shultz, Polak and Patto every chance(as key forwards) to save their spot at the club (all 4 may now be gone).
Don't dismiss Gourdis lightly, he held the CHF position in the WA state 15s,16s and 18s carnivals, can't do that if you can't play footy, his biggest problem (not unlike Deledio) is super athletes have to learn to work hard and not just rely on speed and strengh to win the ball.
I watched a lot of Franklin as a junior, his work ethic at 16 and 17  for a tall was mind blowing, far greater then Scott Gumbleton, Josh Kennedy and Mitch Clarke and light years above Watts, Natanui and Butcher . Franklins dont come along every day and we should'nt expect to much of young forwards to early. How long has it been since RFC developed a key forward..to long..Wallace was a horrific communicator and developer of young players, lets hope that era has passed.
One other point, in defence of all our young forward, Hughes, Gourdis, Putt , Post and Vickery, the Coburg midfield in the ressies was no existent, (in all respect) these players had no idea how to use the ball for young AFL forwards, the Coburg senior side midfield, worked very hard all year, but was low skilled and slow reacting bringing the ball into the forwardline, only in a few games when RFC mids, Cogs, Collins, Jordy and such played did the ball get delivered with any thought or skill

[Smokey]

A reasonable point tigerlily - I look forward with interest to see if (a) we keep those players (Putt and Gourdis) and (b) how they perform if we do.  I still believe 2 years is enough time to cement your position in the Coburg seniors, injuries notwithstanding, and Putt especially should be much more 'thereabouts' than what he currently is but if we keep either of them then let's hope they do step up.

[Judge Roughneck]

Danog 1
Jackstar 0

[torch]

so do we keep him?

 

[Jackstar is back]

Danog 1
Jackstar 0

Mate, who really cares,
We are discussing a "'nobody"' who hardly is going to be the next Wayne Carey or Jonathan Brown,
He will make little impact at the RFC

[WilliamPowell]

Gourdis played 6 senior games and 4 ressies this year, in the Bendigo Bombers game round 7 ( about the week before he did his hammy) he played on Hurley and Daniher 12 kicks 7 hb 6 tackles 2 goals beat both the young Bombers defenders, was injury plagued rest of the year. Your'd think that kind of performance would have cemented him in the seniors and keep in mind RFC was giving Hughes, Shultz, Polak and Patto every chance(as key forwards) to save their spot at the club (all 4 may now be gone).

But there is the exact problem. You would think it would cement a place but a week or 2 later he went missing. That type of performance against Bendigo (who didn't win a game for the season BTW) were few and far between sadly

Don't dismiss Gourdis lightly, he held the CHF position in the WA state 15s,16s and 18s carnivals, can't do that if you can't play footy, his biggest problem (not unlike Deledio) is super athletes have to learn to work hard and not just rely on speed and strengh to win the ball.
I watched a lot of Franklin as a junior, his work ethic at 16 and 17  for a tall was mind blowing, far greater then Scott Gumbleton, Josh Kennedy and Mitch Clarke and light years above Watts, Natanui and Butcher . Franklins dont come along every day and we should'nt expect to much of young forwards to early. How long has it been since RFC developed a key forward..to long..Wallace was a horrific communicator and developer of young players, lets hope that era has passed.

Counter argument to that is the wide open spaces of Subiaco (and I watched an Under 18 state game WA -v_ SA at Subi this year) and other larger grounds suit the athlete come footballers because their speed is an added advantage. There were a couple of WA kids that looked great running but put them in a contested situation they couldn't take a pack mark to save themselves. 

One other point, in defence of all our young forward, Hughes, Gourdis, Putt , Post and Vickery, the Coburg midfield in the ressies was no existent, (in all respect) these players had no idea how to use the ball for young AFL forwards, the Coburg senior side midfield, worked very hard all year, but was low skilled and slow reacting bringing the ball into the forwardline, only in a few games when RFC mids, Cogs, Collins, Jordy and such played did the ball get delivered with any thought or skill

The Coburg Ressies mid-field was "non-existent"  ??? I must have been watching different games. Agreed the skill level is not the greatest but to say it was non-existent is well, bizzarre at best. I think the Rhett Jordans, Damien Raysons etc of this world deserve a bit more kudos than you are giving them credit for.

To put the "blame" at the feet of the ressie mid-field because "these players had no idea how to use the ball for young AFL forwards" is a bit of a cop out. Surely the young forwards need to be able to make it to contests and compete and despite what ever frustration they maybe feeling. They are not going to receive the ball lace out everytime it goes forward. Ask Richo he should be able to confirm this. Vickery seemed to master it and look where he ended up. Any players needs to ber accountable for their performance not look for excuses   

As for the seniors how do you explain the likes of Reiwoldt when he plays at Coburg being able to get the ball? Massive difference is Jack (and hell even Schulz to a dregree) works to create contests; that is they work hard to get into the game. It's that simple.

Finally your argument regarding the mid-field delivery improved once the likes of "Cogs, Collins, Jordy" played appears flawed because when the more senior RFC players went back to Coburg the results went south very quickly.

[tigerlily]

What a unbelievably negative post WP, you should be on the RFC match commitee, always looking for reasons not to give young players a chance (hoped the Wallace weaknesses had gone) I'll agree Gourdis is inconsistent and has skills to work on but do you really think he does'nt have the attibutes to impact at AFL level, would'nt we rather be working on a player with speed, strength, marking and tackling abillity, ground skills and a 60 meter kick, then players who posess little KPF traits, you CANNOT have enjoyed watching Gus, Patto and Simmo lumbering around the forward line pretending to be key forwards, in the last few game they were an embarrassment.
A reminder of our key forward development over the past few years: J Schulz  24....kpp ..............traded or delisted
                                                                                             A Patterson 23 ruck/kpp...... 99%  delisted
                                                                                             C Hughes 22...kpp...............99%  delisted
                                                                                              D Putt  20....ruck/kpp.........99%  delisted
                                                                                              D Gourdis 20...kpp..............50/50 delisted
What a top job we are doing.
And regarding Coburg, we WERE watching different games, "no existant" was the kindess term I could use, and I'm not laying a blame on anyone, the Coburg players are what they are, I would like to know what you expect from Coburg, most of this year we played 12 senior (VFL rule) and 5 or 6 in the ressis neither side had any real success. Coburg is a very good club but has had a lot of player movement past couple of years, there is no real game plan in the seniors and none in the ressies, (maybe expected when the coaches dont know their squads till thursday nite) but very hard for forwards, their succsess is the result of a solid game plan. It is obvious the affiliated clubs that succeed view their AFL players as strengths, not so at Coburg, and that's not a coach or commitee or player thing its a club psyche, more Richmond players played at Coburg then any other VFL club this year, for little result the 2 clubs will have to bond a lot better if the alliance is to be successfull, very hard to gauge young player performances in such a poor year and if you use Post and Vickery as an example while they had ok years at Coburg and well deserved their opportunities, their biggest achievement this year was not having Wallace as coach.
I agree with the point you make about Jack, he did demand the ball at VFL level, but did he the previous 2 years, it just shows you the improvment in confidence and commitment when the boys start to play at AFL level, its called development

Finally, and although unconfirmed at this stage I find the delisting of Dean Putt distressing (such an UNTRIED talent) and hope he blossoms at his new club.
                                                                                                           

[WilliamPowell]

the Coburg players are what they are, I would like to know what you expect from Coburg, most of this year we played 12 senior (VFL rule) and 5 or 6 in the ressis neither side had any real success.

The 12/10 rule you speak of only applies when VFL aligned clubs play stand alone VFL clubs (Port Melb & Frankston) the 12/10 rule doesn't apply when say Coburg plays Box Hill or Williamstown or Werribee....

Are you saying that a team that makes the finals hasn't achieved "any real success"

Coburg is a very good club but has had a lot of player movement past couple of years, there is no real game plan in the seniors and none in the ressies, (maybe expected when the coaches dont know their squads till thursday nite) but very hard for forwards, their succsess is the result of a solid game plan. It is obvious the affiliated clubs that succeed view their AFL players as strengths, not so at Coburg, and that's not a coach or commitee or player thing its a club psyche, more Richmond players played at Coburg then any other VFL club this year, for little result the 2 clubs will have to bond a lot better if the alliance is to be successfull,

That's an interesting comment you make and by it I will make an assumption that you haven't been following Coburg for very long. The reason I say that is because taking out 2009 where the Coburg seniors didn't make the finals; the 3 previous seasons Coburg had played finals (one of only 3 clubs in the VFL to be able to say that) with the most successful being 2007 where they were runners-up. Take out 2009 and it's hard not to believe that the alignment was working and working extremely well at that

Why the decline in 2009? The biggest difference between the the previous years and 2009 is the fact that more senior RFC players played at Coburg ...could that have had anything to do with it?

You say "there is no real game plan in the seniors and none in the ressies, (maybe expected when the coaches dont know their squads till thursday nite) but very hard for forwards, their succsess is the result of a solid game plan." And in part I agree to a point but again (and I know I harp on this) but players have to take responsibility; be accountable for their performances, take the game on and rather than look for someone or something to blame just work harder and try and make things happen rather than sitting back and playing the blame game

 very hard to gauge young player performances in such a poor year and if you use Post and Vickery as an example while they had ok years at Coburg and well deserved their opportunities, their biggest achievement this year was not having Wallace as coach.

Again I have to disagree - the basics are the basics, the right attitude is the right attitude and if those 2 things are being done at the highest possible level then you can gauge performance. Looking for other reasons why things haven't gone right are just that reasons or to be more blunt excuses.

What a unbelievably negative post WP, you should be on the RFC match commitee, always looking for reasons not to give young players a chance (hoped the Wallace weaknesses had gone) I'll agree Gourdis is inconsistent and has skills to work on but do you really think he does'nt have the attibutes to impact at AFL level, would'nt we rather be working on a player with speed, strength, marking and tackling abillity, ground skills and a 60 meter kick, then players who posess little KPF traits, you CANNOT have enjoyed watching Gus, Patto and Simmo lumbering around the forward line pretending to be key forwards, in the last few game they were an embarrassment.
A reminder of our key forward development over the past few years: J Schulz  24....kpp ..............traded or delisted
                                                                                             A Patterson 23 ruck/kpp...... 99%  delisted
                                                                                             C Hughes 22...kpp...............99%  delisted
                                                                                              D Putt  20....ruck/kpp.........99%  delisted
                                                                                              D Gourdis 20...kpp..............50/50 delisted
                                                                                                  

Finally, my reply wasn't meant to be negative it was my honest opinion of a player that I have watched very closely for 2 years. A player who in 2009 I expected to play the entire VFL season in the seniors but who didn't and that is extremely disappointing. The reality is that we expect (rightly or wrongly) AFL players to standout and star in the VFL

You ask "do you really think he doesn't have the attibutes to impact at AFL level?" Perhaps - I agree with your comments about the speed, strength and marking ability but the kicking is the major concern for mine as well as the tackling. The other one you didn't mention and is as equally as important is decision making and I have concerns about that as well

BTW I find it interersting that in one sentence you are super critical of Patto (using the term embarrassing) as a forward but in the next the sentence use him as an example of our lack developing KPP forwards... 

I am all for giving young player opportunities, when thet are earnt. It is what the RFC needs to do but at the same time you want to see steady improvement and in this case steady improvement means playing consistently at VFL level
 

[bojangles17]

Did Cox make an immediate impact?  Did Riewoldt make an immediate impact?  Did Ablett make an immediate impact?

Get your head out of your ass, Jackstar.  This is what the rookie list is for.

Get you head out,
Just went back through the AFL year book, they did actually..
Before you start typing in the the future , check you facts clown

Cox played 17 games at the Age of 20

Ablett played 12 games in his first year, aged 18

Reidwoldt played every game in his 2nd year  at the age of 19.

I didn't ask you how many games they played.  I asked if they had an immediate impact.  In fact, they were complete crap in their first year.  Cox averaged 8 posessions, 2 marks, 0 goals, and 1 tackle per game.  Ablett averaged 8 posessions, 1 mark, less than 1 goal, and 2 tackles per game.  Riewoldt averaged 9.5 posessions, 4 marks, 0.3 goals, and 0.5 tackles per game, and this is a #1 draft pick we're talking about.

Also, how is it Putt's fault that Wallet / Rawlings didn't give him a game?  We now know that Wallet hardly ever spoke to the players individually via the Post article.  Our coaches' handling of our players' development has been shocking.  You would be the first one to admit this.  Of course the players won't be superstars from the get-go, but it's the coaches job to put them on the park.

P.S - I don't appreciate being called a clown and being told to "check my facts" by somebody that can't even comprehend what I'm asking.

P.S. I dont appreciate being told to get my head out my behind.

well leave it there then Jack, that's when you do your best work

[mightytiges]

What a unbelievably negative post WP, you should be on the RFC match commitee, always looking for reasons not to give young players a chance (hoped the Wallace weaknesses had gone) I'll agree Gourdis is inconsistent and has skills to work on but do you really think he does'nt have the attibutes to impact at AFL level, would'nt we rather be working on a player with speed, strength, marking and tackling abillity, ground skills and a 60 meter kick, then players who posess little KPF traits, you CANNOT have enjoyed watching Gus, Patto and Simmo lumbering around the forward line pretending to be key forwards, in the last few game they were an embarrassment.
A reminder of our key forward development over the past few years: J Schulz  24....kpp ..............traded or delisted
                                                                                             A Patterson 23 ruck/kpp...... 99%  delisted
                                                                                             C Hughes 22...kpp...............99%  delisted
                                                                                              D Putt  20....ruck/kpp.........99%  delisted
                                                                                              D Gourdis 20...kpp..............50/50 delisted
What a top job we are doing.                                                                          

Blame our recruiting. Building up depth and consistently drafting youth in large numbers year after year has had very little meaning at Punt Rd. We've recruited so few talls that we are relying on the few we do recruit to make it at AFL level which is highly unlikely. Even in top sides with good recruiting usually only half the kids drafted make it. In the cases of Patto and Cleve we drafted them to substitute for not drafting a better quality tall with an earlier pick in successive years. Then add more speculative talls such as Putt at pick 51 and Gourdis in the PSD. That's not a foundation to build a side around. I agree our development of our young players has been ordinary as well but it doesn't help when there's no consistent recruiting policy and when out of our existing talls a number have significant flaws that prevent them from becoming AFL standard footballers.

Btw I've never seen Gourdis kick 60m. He seems to struggle with any kick especially beyond 30m. He has no natural kicking technique that he can rely on week in week out.

[one-eyed]

Confirmed on the RFC website....



Elevated Richmond rookie David Gourdis has been called into the extended squad for Sunday’s match against Sydney Swans at the MCG.

http://www.richmondfc.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/6301/newsid/97307/default.aspx