Age Poll: Will Terry Wallace be coaching Richmond in 2010?

[Stripes]

Amazing what happens when you don't get onto the Internet for a couple of days...

Great post MT and Gracie.

Unfortunately we just wallowed in mediocrity in '05/'06 until the poo finally hit the fan in 2007 and Terry finally woke up to himself that he had to call time on some old Tiger stalwarts.

Hindsight indicates this had to happen much earlier. Big deal if we came last, we'd have picked up the number one draft picks as consolation. Wallace erred. Going for Kent Kingsley on the verge of 2007 had me tearing my hair out. If ever there was a shortsighted decision it was that one. It highlighted to me where Wallace thought we were at. We were soon to find out how badly he'd misjudged it.

Lucky for Terry though he was given 5 years and not 3 to 'rebuild'.

If TW waited to start the rebuilding process in 2007 why do we have so many players on the list from the 2004 - 2006 drafts? Players such as Lids, Bling, Polo, Pattison, White, Thursfield, Hughes, McGuane, Graham, JON, Collins, Edwards, Riewoldt plus others such as Foley, Moore and Raines who were given opportunities to develop they would never had had under a different coach. Include other 'young' trades such as Morton, Hislop, Thomson and we have a large percentage of our list all from the 2004-2006 period.

I hate the Geelong comparison with our situation. Hate it. Our rebuild has followed Geelong's how exactly?
For starters Thompson made the finals in his first couple of years and has never won a wooden spoon.
These are bald facts although I am sure someone will try to spin it up as I have seen previously in this thread.
Thompson has built a side of big, strong bodies and angled towards a younger demographic.
Our team is based largely of unproven young, lightweight speeders with a core of rapidly aging champs who are still integral to our performances. It's getting better the last couple of seasons I'll admit but it's been a bumpy road. I am still unconvinced our kips can step up to fill the breach in a couple of key areas.

The reason the Geelong comparisons are made is because TW has publicly stated that he used the Geelong blueprint as his rebuilding model. The model was to bring through a large group of similiar aged players that could develop together, compete with each other and create a consistently strong unit across the ground. That is why TW has been recruiting players such as Morton, Hislop and Thomson who are around the same age as Lids, Foley etc. We have a different list of different players types but love the comparison or hate it, we are following the Geelong model regardless.

Tad naive huh?

I wasn't trying to insult you here.

M Graham, P Bowden, Kingsley & finally McMahon for 19 was the straw that broke the camels back for Terry's power plays and where he probably still a part of the process, his influence will have been greatly reduced in the current setup.
Finally we now have someone who's there to make Wallace accountable for the decisions that are made by the club regarding recycled players we select.

Add players such as Cousins, Simmonds, Morton, Thomson and Hislop who were traded for draft picks just like McMahon, Knobel, Kingsley and P Bowden but because they are successful (or new) they are never mentioned as bad recruitment decisions. If we are going to make blanket statements and state that TWs recruitment and trading choices are poor then we need to look at all of them including the likes of Simmonds, Morton and Cousins which I believe are well heralded and very successful.

TW has done exactly what he was hired for. Every team shores up there list with trades, even those who are rebuilding. TW has used most of our recruitment choices to get young players into the team and rebuild.

I just hope our young list is as successful as a know it will be and TW is around for a long time to enjoy his hard work and good coaching 

Stripes

[Mr Magic]

who were given opportunities to develop they would never had had under a different coach.

'Never have had'? That's a pretty big assumption there striper.
Seems like Clarkson & Eade have been giving their kids plenty of opportunities.

A few aside, our youngsters played a sprinkling of games in 2005/2006 seasons as Terry preferred to play it safe.
I still vouch in those first two seasons particularly, Wallace gave many of the Richmond stalwarts who'd been previous serial failures, too long to make something happen that was never going to. He barely made a tough decision at the selection table in those first two years despite the fact many supporters were screaming for more youth to be injected into the fray. Yes we remained 'competitive' but we were treading water without any chance of threatening teams of genuine quality because we 'owed the senior players finals'. We ended up nowhere 'with a bullet'.
However by the end of 2005 Terry thought it was all coming together hence only 3 draft picks and the addition of Kent Kingsley. We all saw the end result as the year fell completely apart and we won our 2nd spoon in 4 years. Wallace clearly misjudged the abilities of many on the the list by a long way and he only truly embraced a youth policy when things when very pear shaped in the early games of 2007. To his credit though (McMahon trade aside) he's showed indications since then of turning it around. As I said better late than never but he's fortunate he had 5 years.

The reason the Geelong comparisons are made is because TW has publicly stated that he used the Geelong blueprint as his rebuilding model. The model was to bring through a large group of similiar aged players that could develop together, compete with each other and create a consistently strong unit across the ground. That is why TW has been recruiting players such as Morton, Hislop and Thomson who are around the same age as Lids, Foley etc. We have a different list of different players types but love the comparison or hate it, we are following the Geelong model regardless.

Most clubs in the competition are following a youth policy. It's hardly revolutionary or the 'Geelong Model'.

Add players such as Cousins, Simmonds, Morton, Thomson and Hislop who were traded for draft picks (snip) but because they are successful (or new)

of those names only Simmonds & Morton(promising so far) could be considered a success currently.

I just hope our young list is as successful as a know it will be and TW is around for a long time to enjoy his hard work and good coaching 

I hope your absolute certainty comes to some sort of fruition sooner rather than later because it's going to be a tumultuous year at Richmond otherwise. I am excited by a few of our kids for sure but I am far from convinced Wallace is the best coach we can attract to take them to the next level. Fortunately Gary March thinks the same way.

[Mr Magic]

While I think there's no excuse for missing the finals this year barring a mass list of injuries to our best players, I agree with you Gracie. There are far more important variables to what decides whether Wallace is the best coach to take us forward than just ladder position. As I just said what happens if like the doggies in 2007 we have 4 key mids go down with ACLs and we just miss the finals - does Wallace go? On ladder position then the answer is yes. What happens if we repeat 2008 yet Jack or Kel kick that one goal against the Saints which sneaks us into 8th spot despite another poor record against the top 8 sides - does Wallace go? On ladder position the answer is no. The judgement should be on the state of the list at the end of this season, its further scope for further improvement and development, its ability to match the top sides, and whether the Club believes Wallace is the man to take the team post 2009 consistently into finals and eventually to a flag. We know all too well ladder positions can be fool's gold. 

The emphasis on "must play finals in 2009" comes from March and Board publicly making it the emphasis and making it 'the' criteria on which Wallace will be judged at least in the media and public's eyes. He even said which round a judgement will be made - rounds 14-15 . A big boo-boo on March's part when that sort of thing should be kept inside the boardroom and footy dept. As long as Wallace and the footy dept know what the expectations are from the Board then that is all who needs to know. How can you state when you will make a decision on the coach's future 6 months prior to the start of the season  ???. Poor and naive PR from the Prez who caved into pushy media questioning at the time.

Finals is the benchmark this season because 5 years is long enough to build a team that wins more games than it loses despite hurdles it may face.
Good sides cover injuries and still make the 8 because they have the depth account for them. They may not win the premiership but they still should finish above ninth.
As I said in a previous post, we had an absolute dream run with injury in '08 and yet still we only beat 1 top 8 side in 11 outings and finished ninth again.
The reason the injury excuses by Wallace supporters are coming out already is that one feels it won't take much for it to go wobbly if we lose a key player or two.
Compounding the problem is that we have a core of 30+ year olds that are still crucial to our success or failure.

Ultimately a finals birth is the only benchmark that matters when all is taken into account in '09 and I for one am firmly on the President's side with his statements as such. Gary March will not tolerate mediocrity.
Terry can't keep making promises and excuses forever, he needs this team he coaches to bear some fruit after a long drought.

[Fishfinger]

However by the end of 2005 Terry thought it was all coming together hence only 3 draft picks and the addition of Kent Kingsley.

Do you mean the end of 2006?
If so, there were 5 ND picks + Kent Kingsley in the PSD = 6 draft picks.

[Fishfinger]

Add players such as Cousins, Simmonds, Morton, Thomson and Hislop who were traded for draft picks.......

Cousins and Simmonds weren't traded for draft picks.  (Edit: nor was Hislop)
Cousins was actually drafted.

Simmonds = masterstroke of recruiting. No draft pick involved. In reality, a straight swap for Fiora.

[Mr Magic]

However by the end of 2005 Terry thought it was all coming together hence only 3 draft picks and the addition of Kent Kingsley.

Do you mean the end of 2006?
If so, there were 5 ND picks + Kent Kingsley in the PSD = 6 draft picks.

My bad, I meant by the end of season 2006, Wallace thought it was all coming together.
3 draft picks in 2005 was a disgrace as was picking up Kingsley at the end of 2006.

[Stripes]

A few aside, our youngsters played a sprinkling of games in 2005/2006 seasons as Terry preferred to play it safe.
I still vouch in those first two seasons particularly, Wallace gave many of the Richmond stalwarts who'd been previous serial failures, too long to make something happen that was never going to. He barely made a tough decision at the selection table in those first two years despite the fact many supporters were screaming for more youth to be injected into the fray.

A sure way to have a promising young star lose his confidence, get injuried and develop bad habits is by throwing him in unprotected with too much responsibility from the getgo. A rare few thrive when made to 'sink or swim' but by and large you lose more young players this was than make them. Getting rid of the volume of players you suggested in 05/06 and throwing in a team of 18 year old boys would have be disasterous for our future as a club not to mention impractical. Most of them were no-where near ready to stip up to that level and I would go so far as to argue that Tambling came into the side too early through necessity which has detrimentally effected his development. If we did this on mass with a players who were physically and mentally unready it would have been negative for their personal growth, the team culture and the morale of the club in general.

You play kids when they are ready not a second earlier which is what Geelong did with Ablett and co...

Most clubs in the competition are following a youth policy. It's hardly revolutionary or the 'Geelong Model'.

Ah you missed the difference Magicman. Other clubs are rebuilding by bringing in a small group of young players every year whereas TW is attempting to build up a large group of similiar aged players all at once. This is why Morton, Thomson and Hislop were recruited. That is the 'Geelong Model'

I hope your absolute certainty comes to some sort of fruition sooner rather than later because it's going to be a tumultuous year at Richmond otherwise. I am excited by a few of our kids for sure but I am far from convinced Wallace is the best coach we can attract to take them to the next level. Fortunately Gary March thinks the same way.

You know what MM, I am confident that we will have a good year and that TW will have his contract extended and I am content to remain positive and not look for negatives to bring me down. When all evidence suggests that we have every chance of a successful year then I'm happy to jump on board and enjoy the ride regardless.

In terms of a better coach out there, I am struggling to think of an experienced coach capable of anything let alone with the ability to take the Tigers to a flag. March may need to watch his own position if he keeps speaking out of school and sharing in-house goals/plans with the media. Regardless of his strengths, March is only adding fuel to the fire and setting us all up for a fall with the type of statements he has made recently.

TW has stuck by his plan, put in the hard yards, I think he deserves a chance to see it come to fruition regardless.

Stripes

[Mr Magic]

We're not really getting anywhere with this Stripes. My opinion on Terry's first three years will not waver.
As I have said he's improved things slightly from that point on but my stance remains sceptical, despite our improved & unexpected 9th place finish last season for the reasons outlined in this thread.

TW has stuck by his plan, put in the hard yards, I think he deserves a chance to see it come to fruition regardless.

He has been given the chance. 
Wallace has been given every opportunity to see out his 5 year blueprint and if it's on track then everything should look after itself.
However if the plans falls short and a finals birth eludes us again in 2009, he will rightly be replaced and someone else will get the opportunity with the young group to take them to the next level. Next time without the luxury of 5 years.

With the addition of a 31yr old Cousins and with key players Richo, Simmonds and Brown unlikely to get better from this year on, one feels that it's the last throw of the dice for Terry's Richmond to play finals as it won't get any easier to make the 8 in 2010.
It's a big reason why Wallace decided to take the punt on Cousins where others feared to tread. He knows it's make or break and that he has to convince the Pres and the majority of fans, that he's on the right track in order to earn another contract.

If Terry leads us where you think he will in 2009, then I'll cross over. Until then my scepticism will remain.

[mat073]

However by the end of 2005 Terry thought it was all coming together hence only 3 draft picks and the addition of Kent Kingsley.

Do you mean the end of 2006?
If so, there were 5 ND picks + Kent Kingsley in the PSD = 6 draft picks.

My bad, I meant by the end of season 2006, Wallace thought it was all coming together.
3 draft picks in 2005 was a disgrace as was picking up Kingsley at the end of 2006.

Mr magic....If TW thought it was all comming together at the end of 06 ..Why on earth did he come out a say that "2011" comment at the start of 07 season ?

[Mr Magic]

Mr magic....If TW thought it was all comming together at the end of 06 ..Why on earth did he come out a say that "2011" comment at the start of 07 season ?

On the verge of the 2007 season, I think was just beginning to recognise just how badly he'd misjudged the playing groups ability.
However the mixed messages coming out of Terry's mouth at that time clearly unsettled the playing group.
On one hand he's talking about owing the senior players finals success and drafting veterans like Kent Kingsley at the end of '06 and on the other hand he's talking about '2011' at the start of '07.
It was basically a fall back if things didn't work out as planned. After the early losses in 2007 culminating in 'Gaspar-Gate' he finally bit the bullet and threw youth(McGuane) into the fray. IMO though Gaspar should have been punted before the start of the season as he was clearly not up to it. That whole situation was handled very poorly IMO and smacked of a coach making it up as went along.

[Gracie]

Mr magic....If TW thought it was all comming together at the end of 06 ..Why on earth did he come out a say that "2011" comment at the start of 07 season ?

On the verge of the 2007 season, I think was just beginning to recognise just how badly he'd misjudged the playing groups ability.
However the mixed messages coming out of Terry's mouth at that time clearly unsettled the playing group.
On one hand he's talking about owing the senior players finals success and drafting veterans like Kent Kingsley at the end of '06 and on the other hand he's talking about '2011' at the start of '07.
It was basically a fall back if things didn't work out as planned. After the early losses in 2007 culminating in 'Gaspar-Gate' he finally bit the bullet and threw youth(McGuane) into the fray. IMO though Gaspar should have been punted before the start of the season as he was clearly not up to it. That whole situation was handled very poorly IMO and smacked of a coach making it up as went along.

Or they didn't want to cut Gaspar too early when the replacements hadn't fully stepped up. Gaspar was put on notice and he then chose to quit. Basically Gaspar spat the dummy. At least Tivendale had the balls to play it out to the end for the benefit of the club

[Chuck17]

Gracie, I don't think that fits with the "everything TW does is wrong" approach 

Tiv's estimation went up plenty in my eyes after they way he carried on with his football that year. 

[Fishfinger]

3 draft picks in 2005 was a disgrace.............

4 picks.
3 ND + 1 inspired PSD pick (Matthew White).

[Mr Magic]

3 draft picks in 2005 was a disgrace.............

4 picks.
3 ND + 1 inspired PSD pick (Matthew White).

Yes we were lucky to get Whitey in the PSD, he's the one who's worked out well from that draft but I guess that has to be balanced against the not so inspiring Patrick Bowden (dp56) who was the patch job. Shame we didn't use that selection to unearth another diamond.

[Fishfinger]

You have to be very lucky to unearth a diamond that far down. That's why clubs pass on late picks and trial players before the PSD.

As for Patrick Bowden, a matter of opinion. He was 24, the right age for the hole in our list. He played all 22 games in 2006 and averaged over 20 possessions per game.
I think he was fair punt for pick 56 rather than a patch job. Injury stuffed him in 2007.