Author Topic: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]  (Read 45448 times)

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #270 on: June 19, 2009, 01:24:27 AM »

look atthe saints, they had all those early picks years ago but still havent won a thing,

If they win the flag this year you can put it down to their early draft picks - just took a couple of years, but they have plenty of them just maturing. They also shoulda/cooda won one earlier.



bs, if they win a flag now, which they wont, it is a bit late to use those draft picks. 3 yrs ago yes, now no. 
if they win now its because of lyon  and their recent additions. not their picks from way back then

Abit late?

How old do you think Reiwoldt, Ball, Kosi, Goddard are??

 ??? ??? ???

Offline TigerTime

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #271 on: June 19, 2009, 09:46:06 AM »
we have waited 27 yrs for another premiership, ahh why not lets wait another 30 , we will stay in this bs lets get best picks in draft cycle and in 30 yrs time a premiership will mean much more ::)

FooffooValve

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #272 on: June 19, 2009, 01:55:20 PM »

The main cultural problem at Richmond for a long time now has been entrenched short-term thinking at the expense and harm of our mid to long term interests. Winning a couple of meaningless games against fellow strugglers at the expense of top 20 draft picks is short-term thinking. These wins will be forgotten as soon as the final siren sounds in round 22.

There's little that can be significantly achieved now with 2009 a write-off apart from playing the kids until the end of the season in readiness for 2010 and beyond which appears to be what we are doing now. The offseason is when key changes are made - delistings, trades, new draftees added, team gameplans modified and tuned, and further resources added. To maximize the effectiveness of these offseason decisions we need as many early picks as available to us to cut as many of those players not up to it and give our recruiting department the best chance to replace them with better quality young footballers. Winning no more than 4 games provides us with these early picks; winning meaningless games against bottom sides deprives us of them.

All that beating bottom sides does is make the club feel good for a week and relieve some pressure on the club until we play a decent side and harsh reality hits home again and knocks the stuffing out of our confidence. It does nothing as far as building a winning club culture because belief and a winning culture comes from winning games that count and matter as much to your opponent as it does to you - when it is do or die.

Once again you confuse the result of these last 10 games (ie either a win or loss) with the process of winning. I have not and have never said that it is important that we win these games to begin create a strong long term culture. What I have said is that it is important that we prepare the side to win at all costs. These games are only meaningless if we tank, and by tanking I mean not just playing young players, but playing people in strange positions, playing kids that aren't ready, taking off guns at crucial moments etc.

I would argue that ensuring that we don't win more than 4 games, either by playing very weak teams or by actually manufacturing losses, is the epitomy of short-term thinking.

Tell me, out of these 6 people, who do you think are the 3 most important people at Geelong, in terms of winning premierships: Mark Thompson, Brian Cook, Joel Selwood, Frank Costa, Neil Balme, Brad Ottens.



Offline HD

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #273 on: June 19, 2009, 03:16:25 PM »
The fact remains that current form has us getting those picks anyway, and like FooFooValve i don't believe in "manufacturing losses". Playing kids is not tanking - it's preparation, team strengthening and smart football. Pulling Cousins/Foley/Brown/Lids off 5 minutes from the end, 5 points down against say Melbourne or Fremantle WOULD be tanking and to say the least disheartening and disappointing.

If we expect these young players to tank the rest of the season away, then we have no leg to stand on next year if they don't put in 110%. Why should they if 75% was good enough the year before? Our older, more experienced players might cope with that kind of mental switch in a few short weeks/months but the kids won't and they are who we should be focused on.

Offline Stripes

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #274 on: June 19, 2009, 03:55:31 PM »
Foofoovalue - the remainder of the season should be seen as an opportunity to test the players so if we can move them into alternative positions and roles to see if they are better suited/and or could fill a need if injuries/situation dictates it, then why would this be a problem.

I want to build a strong team for the future and playing the youth, testing the list and, if required, playing potential/raw players over more experienced players to gauge their worth, is all very much an important strategy toward that. Call it tanking or call it building for the future but wins should always be the goal of the team...just not always the administration and just as Cris Connolly said when interviewed in todays paper refering to the draft - 'You can't make Chicken Salad out of Chicken %#$^'. Sound familiar? ;)

We need more quality added to our list to replace those who are too old or underperforming and the only real way to do that in the current climate is to finish down the bottom. Takes an astute club to give the illusion of trying to win to the supporters, instilling in the list that losing is unacceptable but making the growth of the list and future of the club its number one priority.

Wins are worthless at this stage unless they are a step towards future success and its hard to see how a close win against a weak side like WC, Fremantle or North is helping our players or club.

Its all about the future now not the moment

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Online Francois Jackson

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #275 on: June 19, 2009, 03:58:33 PM »
we have waited 27 yrs for another premiership, ahh why not lets wait another 30 , we will stay in this bs lets get best picks in draft cycle and in 30 yrs time a premiership will mean much more ::)

I agree but the problem we have found ourselves is Under Wallace.

We never really bottomed out like we should have. If we did we would have got one of Murphy or Gibbs.

we never got the picks we should have. These bull poo 9th finishes combined with additions like Kingsley, Mcmahon have put us in the position we are in. Not to mention Trent stuffin knobel. 2 picks later Blues nab Eddie Betts.

We were fooled into thinking we are better than what we really are.

we need to really bottom out and keep all our stuffin picks at least this year and get the best kid in the land. Wallace has screwed us sideways.

IVE ALWAYS SAID THIS TO FRIENDS. THE FIRST COACH WHO KEEPS ALL OUR PICKS AND REBUILDS FROM THE GROUND UP WILL GET US PLAYING REGULAR FINALS NOT THIS MEANINGLESS WINS GARBAGE THAT GETS DISHED UP YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR.

Melbourne is on the rise as are the Blues. Wonder why??

These pathetic meaningless wins dont count IMO. I couldnt give a stuff about beating Eagles to be honest except for the fact i cleaned up at the TAB.

I want to smash sides like Saints, Cats Blues and Pies, something we seem to never be able to acheive.
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Offline big tone

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #276 on: June 19, 2009, 05:38:05 PM »
The fact remains that current form has us getting those picks anyway, and like FooFooValve i don't believe in "manufacturing losses". Playing kids is not tanking - it's preparation, team strengthening and smart football. Pulling Cousins/Foley/Brown/Lids off 5 minutes from the end, 5 points down against say Melbourne or Fremantle WOULD be tanking and to say the least disheartening and disappointing.

If we expect these young players to tank the rest of the season away, then we have no leg to stand on next year if they don't put in 110%. Why should they if 75% was good enough the year before? Our older, more experienced players might cope with that kind of mental switch in a few short weeks/months but the kids won't and they are who we should be focused on.
Wake up mate, nobody is telling these kids to tank, it is the coaches and team selecters that need to make sure we don't win games. Let these kids go out and have a go but if it gets tight, the coaches need to do whatever they need to loose.
Do you think our list is good enough to compete against the Geelongs and Saints? If you are not an idiot the answer is no, and the best way to try and fix that is to get early picks. Could it be any simplier!
Winning anymore games would be the most stupid thing our club has done since not picking the big Pav!

Online WilliamPowell

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #277 on: June 19, 2009, 07:10:35 PM »
Do you think our list is good enough to compete against the Geelongs and Saints? If you are not an idiot the answer is no, and the best way to try and fix that is to get early picks. Could it be any simplier!
Winning anymore games would be the most stupid thing our club has done since not picking the big Pav!

So can I ask a hypothetical?

Next week against the Saints if by some miracle we are up by say 10 points with 4 minutes to go would you still think we should tank the result?

I understand your argument but what happens if we are actually in a winning postion against a quality side(s).. What do you think we should do in that situation
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Offline Infamy

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #278 on: June 19, 2009, 08:00:47 PM »
Do you think our list is good enough to compete against the Geelongs and Saints? If you are not an idiot the answer is no, and the best way to try and fix that is to get early picks. Could it be any simplier!
Winning anymore games would be the most stupid thing our club has done since not picking the big Pav!

So can I ask a hypothetical?

Next week against the Saints if by some miracle we are up by say 10 points with 4 minutes to go would you still think we should tank the result?

I understand your argument but what happens if we are actually in a winning postion against a quality side(s).. What do you think we should do in that situation


Is this also assuming that the side is the same as it was last week... or younger?

I do believe that this season is over and we should be looking to boost our list via the best picks in the draft we can get. HOWEVER, if our team of kids can get us in a winning position over the best side in the comp (or one of the two best) then go for the win at all costs. If our kids can beat the ladder leader then theres no point in tanking as they will be able to beat crap teams as well and we'll get over 4 wins regardless. Who knows, if our kids can beat StKilda, we may still be able to play finals.

Offline Smokey

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #279 on: June 19, 2009, 09:10:28 PM »

Is this also assuming that the side is the same as it was last week... or younger?

I do believe that this season is over and we should be looking to boost our list via the best picks in the draft we can get. HOWEVER, if our team of kids can get us in a winning position over the best side in the comp (or one of the two best) then go for the win at all costs. If our kids can beat the ladder leader then theres no point in tanking as they will be able to beat crap teams as well and we'll get over 4 wins regardless. Who knows, if our kids can beat StKilda, we may still be able to play finals.

But how do we know if our team is good enough if we don't train to win, plan to win, prepare to win and try to win?

Offline Infamy

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #280 on: June 19, 2009, 10:03:39 PM »

Is this also assuming that the side is the same as it was last week... or younger?

I do believe that this season is over and we should be looking to boost our list via the best picks in the draft we can get. HOWEVER, if our team of kids can get us in a winning position over the best side in the comp (or one of the two best) then go for the win at all costs. If our kids can beat the ladder leader then theres no point in tanking as they will be able to beat crap teams as well and we'll get over 4 wins regardless. Who knows, if our kids can beat StKilda, we may still be able to play finals.

But how do we know if our team is good enough if we don't train to win, plan to win, prepare to win and try to win?
You know your team is good enough if you win games against top opposition when winning actually gets you somewhere... i.e. finals
While there is a system in place that rewards failure then when you know your season is over, it's time to go for that carrot

Offline big tone

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #281 on: June 19, 2009, 10:16:25 PM »
Do you think our list is good enough to compete against the Geelongs and Saints? If you are not an idiot the answer is no, and the best way to try and fix that is to get early picks. Could it be any simplier!
Winning anymore games would be the most stupid thing our club has done since not picking the big Pav!

So can I ask a hypothetical?

Next week against the Saints if by some miracle we are up by say 10 points with 4 minutes to go would you still think we should tank the result?

I understand your argument but what happens if we are actually in a winning postion against a quality side(s).. What do you think we should do in that situation

I'll say it ONE last time, we should loose.
So what if we beat the Saints, we beat the Hawks last year and that did stuff all to help us at the end of the day, this season is a right off and we should at the very least make the most of a bad season by gaining extra picks in this years draft.
Only the RFC and it's selfish supporters could entertain not taking advantage of the situation we are in, for a few meaningless wins regardless of who we are playing.
It's time to be smart and think past today, and look to the future and maybe we will not be talking about us tanking in round 12 of next season and seasons after that.
Just my opinion...

Online Francois Jackson

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #282 on: June 19, 2009, 10:19:32 PM »
Do you think our list is good enough to compete against the Geelongs and Saints? If you are not an idiot the answer is no, and the best way to try and fix that is to get early picks. Could it be any simplier!
Winning anymore games would be the most stupid thing our club has done since not picking the big Pav!

So can I ask a hypothetical?

Next week against the Saints if by some miracle we are up by say 10 points with 4 minutes to go would you still think we should tank the result?

I understand your argument but what happens if we are actually in a winning postion against a quality side(s).. What do you think we should do in that situation


now thats stupid WP.
I would want to win in that case because it would mean so much to this cloub, especially as Saints are one of our bogey sides and only if its a young outfit like last week.

What im talking about is useless meaningless wins like last week against the Eagles who never came to play from the first bounce.

Beating teams like that only sugar coat the fact we are so far away from teams like the Cats and Saints its not funny.

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Online WilliamPowell

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #283 on: June 20, 2009, 08:56:15 AM »
now thats stupid WP.
I would want to win in that case because it would mean so much to this cloub, especially as Saints are one of our bogey sides and only if its a young outfit like last week.

What im talking about is useless meaningless wins like last week against the Eagles who never came to play from the first bounce.

Beating teams like that only sugar coat the fact we are so far away from teams like the Cats and Saints its not funny.

No daniel it isn't stupid - just look at the replies

You've answered that if it is the Saints or Geelong we beat it's OK. And if we are in the position to win then we should try and win those games. But any others we should lose because they are meaningless

Big tone on the other hand has said it doesn't matter who it is we should lose. No "ifs buts or maybes" we should lose every game for the remainder of the season to ensure a priority pick

Infamy's point is IF we are in the position to win against top sides with a young team then we should take those wins if they come about

I was interested to read people's views because this topic is about tanking (which I am against BTW) and it appears that some people want a complete tank (eg big tone), others want a partial tank subject to conditions (eg you), while some just want to see the kids played and let the results be what they are (eg me).

Everyone has an opinion and that's great. I was just interested to see if the tankers were flexible in thier tanking requirements ;D

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Offline Infamy

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #284 on: June 20, 2009, 12:05:58 PM »
Infamy's point is IF we are in the position to win against top sides with a young team then we should take those wins if they come about

I was interested to read people's views because this topic is about tanking (which I am against BTW) and it appears that some people want a complete tank (eg big tone), others want a partial tank subject to conditions (eg you), while some just want to see the kids played and let the results be what they are (eg me).
I must admit, I have to add another condition to my POV, I'm purely talking about this week coming up. If we are 4-8 after Round 13 then we can still make the finals. It's unlikely, but if the young team can beat StKilda then they may get enough confidence to finish the season strongly with a pretty easy run in the 2nd half of the season.

If we have won two in a row, including knocking off StKilda, then our following games against Adelaide in GC, Carlton, North, Essendon, Melbourne, Sydney @ MCG, Collingwood, Hawks & West Coast are all winnable. Not sure we can win 8 of them, but who knows. If we lose against StKilda as expected, then I think we need to continue bringing in more and more kids, winning against top sides is great, beating middle of the road sides to help us finish mid table is just going to stifle our development.

If we are 3-17 going into Round 21 against Hawthorn and 2 goals up in the 4th quarter, they I'd say it's pretty stupid to try and win unless we are going to try and tank against the West Coast Tankers the following week. Finishing this season with 5-7 wins against only bottom 4 teams would be a tragedy and an indictment on our football commitee.