Author Topic: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]  (Read 48765 times)

Offline mightytiges

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #300 on: June 24, 2009, 10:46:55 PM »
Whereas in recent times we've had David Bourke and Tom Roach as F/S :P. It made a massive difference if you are handed a gun on platter as a F/S under the old rules. We know that thanks to Richo in 1992 (Collingwood chased him hard but he wanted to play for us). Under the new F/S rules Geelong would've missed out as they have had to decide between a Selwood and Hawkins, or a Bartel and Ablett, rather than effectively having two top 10 picks. Add that to them smartly keeping their picks and trading for more and they turned over their list quickly.

The 'process of winning' requires a talented list to begin with...

Well, I guess this is where our thinking diverges, for Richmond anyway. I think you can prepare sides that have no hope of winning to take the field with full preparation and an attitude that they must win. It is a waste of time to send a side out with the subliminal message that they aren't required to win. That's when getting games into youngsters does become meaningless, or close to it.

As I've said, I'm not interested in what West Coast are doing, are what Carlton have done. Their cultures are so different from ours it isn't funny. We can't afford to 'play games' with our non-existent culture. I believe we are actually in a fragile state, not because of our list but because of our lack of a genuine winning culture right through the entire club. It wouldn't matter if we had picks 1 and 3 or 3 and 19 or whatever, we won't be able to capitalise on the talent until we turn our attention to our club culture. Once we turn our gaze solely to one or two draft picks to save ourselves, we take our eyes off the real hard ball.

You're free to disagree, and you may be right, we may be a couple of high picks away from a flag. Time will tell.
IMO you can prepare a side that has no hope of winning to take the field with full preparation and an attitude that they must win but that's probably for just a game or two. We've seen many times a poorer side on paper upset a more fancied opponent in any one game. However play that same contest 10 times and the better classier side will win say 8/10 of them. The AFL season is a marathon of 22 games (plus finals if you make it). It sorts out the better sides from the mediocre poorer ones. Once a side gets on a roll of losses then belief and confidence falls away and players start focussing on themselves in survival mode rather than the team. They lose faith in the team's capacity to win and their teammates and start doubting those giving them instructions. Ask any coach and they'll say they are only as good as the players they have at their disposal.

I don't disagree with you FFV about our culture from top to bottom being poor for decades. I agree it still needs addressing and hopefully this review the Club is undertaking will contribute significantly to finally addressing all the areas we fall short in as a Club. I know people who went to the Club 80 function last night were impressed and comforted with what March, Wright, Cameron and Jackson had to say about where the Club is at now and what still needs to be done. I think where I differ from your view FFV is I don't believe our cultural problems can be addressed properly to any significant degree in the upcoming 10 weeks with a caretaker coach and the Club still finalising the footy department review. It would just be a makeshift response IMO. Even just from a resources viewpoint (or rather lack of it) the Craigieburn facility won't be finished until early next year and the Punt Rd redevelopment which hasn't commenced yet won't be completed until 2011. We are still a club in transition. Our playing list is in transition as well and there's nothing we can do about our list now except give experience to those cubs who are part of our future, drop those that aren't, and plan to maximise the upcoming draft to add the better talent we desperately need. In the past our culture has been just pray and hope with no detailed planning nor firm long-term direction. IMO part of the planning should be maximising the number of early picks we'll have to cut deeper and pump in better talent more quickly to turnover the list quickly. You're right though to say time will tell.
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FooffooValve

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #301 on: June 25, 2009, 09:23:57 AM »
Whereas in recent times we've had David Bourke and Tom Roach as F/S :P. It made a massive difference if you are handed a gun on platter as a F/S under the old rules. We know that thanks to Richo in 1992 (Collingwood chased him hard but he wanted to play for us). Under the new F/S rules Geelong would've missed out as they have had to decide between a Selwood and Hawkins, or a Bartel and Ablett, rather than effectively having two top 10 picks. Add that to them smartly keeping their picks and trading for more and they turned over their list quickly.

You forget that Ablett was a pretty good small forward (originally touted as a 2nd or 3rd rounder) until his own playing group told him he wasn't working hard enough. Then...wooshka!

How many Richmond players are in that category? Unanswerable, but the sudden and late improvement of Jackson and Tambling this year suggests that there are a few.


IMO you can prepare a side that has no hope of winning to take the field with full preparation and an attitude that they must win but that's probably for just a game or two. We've seen many times a poorer side on paper upset a more fancied opponent in any one game. However play that same contest 10 times and the better classier side will win say 8/10 of them.

Once again, you confuse the result with the attitude and preparation. My point is that we must prepare our young players to win these last 10 games as best we can. If they lose, at least they have done everything in their control to win the game. If they win, fantastic. If we are preparing them to win, and they do, then we have to be prepared to accept that that is a very good thing for their development, and of more value than losing for the sake of an extra pick.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #302 on: June 25, 2009, 12:17:22 PM »
You forget that Ablett was a pretty good small forward (originally touted as a 2nd or 3rd rounder) until his own playing group told him he wasn't working hard enough. Then...wooshka!

How many Richmond players are in that category? Unanswerable, but the sudden and late improvement of Jackson and Tambling this year suggests that there are a few.
Not unusual for eventual gun mids though to start their careers as small/midsize forwards until they have a few years in the system to build up their body to handle the workloads required to play midfield. Cyril Rioli is following the same path at Hawthorn.

It would have been helpful too at Richmond to have a development coach before their 3rd year in Blingers case and 4th in Jacko's case. The Club didn't have basic resources in the footy dept and until the new facilities are completed in 2011 our resources still aren't up to the elite standard of the best and wealthy clubs.

Having said that the player still needs to do the hard work and have the natural ability to begin with. Jacko was a gun long distance runner at school and of course Richie is finally starting to show the talent that had recruiters excited when he was a junior. Jake King for instance could work as hard as Ablett and Rioli (and he probably does as work ethic is a strength of his) but he'll still be a hack of a kick and just a VFL player at best  :yep.


Once again, you confuse the result with the attitude and preparation. My point is that we must prepare our young players to win these last 10 games as best we can. If they lose, at least they have done everything in their control to win the game. If they win, fantastic. If we are preparing them to win, and they do, then we have to be prepared to accept that that is a very good thing for their development, and of more value than losing for the sake of an extra pick.
But you prepare the players to win even when a club is tanking. You say nothing to the players and you expect them to do their best and go out there and aim to win. You still do all the midweek preparation such as watching opposition videos, discussing tactics, etc with the players as normal. It's the match committee that manipulates team selection (play a young inexperienced side instead of your current "best" 22) and the coaching staff choose match-ups that are more for educational and developmental reasons at the expense of winning the game (such as get a young mid in his first or second year to try and run around with Judd, Ablett or this week Dal Santo instead of Jacko who we know already can do a tagging or run-with-role). 

When you're a poor side you're losing far more often than winning anyway even with more experienced players. It's not a huge leap to tank  :P. Doing the above means you're preparing for next year now rather than waiting for official preseason to start in November. Part of that preparation for next year and beyond as a club should be list management. We need to plan now for this. We need a wholistic plan. We can't afford to leave recruiting to chance as we have in the past. We'll have most likely 4 retirees this year. So having an average collection of picks - say 7, 24, 40, 56 - only covers them leaving. That leaves us relying on picks 72, 88, etc, which have a high probably of failing or being no better than what we have now, to replace our current list cloggers. How's that going to improve the quality of our list  ???. Remember as well this year 1/3 of the kids usually available aren't. You need the early picks and as many as you can get your hands on. Sure you can trade someone with decent trade value such a Tuck say for another decent pick but that's just one extra pick who essentially is replacing Tucky not our list cloggers. Tanking on the other hand would give us two extra early picks for free!

Anti-tankers want their cake and to eat it too. They want wins now and they want a better list for the future compared to the poor one we have now. Under the current draft system and with the new teams coming in it doesn't work that way. You have to choose one or the other. Attitude and preparation alone while still necessary will not make us a better side. You need the top talent to begin with. Combine this talented list with a win at all costs attitude, preparation and elite training resources at their disposal and then you're going somewhere.
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Offline Stripes

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #303 on: June 25, 2009, 01:06:29 PM »
Probably the saddest thing for people with opinions like you and me MT is that the club isn't tanking and probably won't start tanking unless the ship has already sailed.  :'(

Offline mightytiges

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #304 on: June 25, 2009, 04:42:57 PM »
Probably the saddest thing for people with opinions like you and me MT is that the club isn't tanking and probably won't start tanking unless the ship has already sailed.  :'(
If we are 3-12 after the next 3 tough games (St K, Adel, Carl) then you would hope the club would change its mind but I won't hold my breath.
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Offline mat073

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #305 on: June 25, 2009, 05:01:00 PM »
Perhaps a 100 pt shellacking at the hands of the saints might jolt them into reality.
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Offline Smokey

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #306 on: June 25, 2009, 06:14:46 PM »
Probably the saddest thing for people with opinions like you and me MT is that the club isn't tanking and probably won't start tanking unless the ship has already sailed.  :'(
If we are 3-12 after the next 3 tough games (St K, Adel, Carl) then you would hope the club would change its mind but I won't hold my breath.

If we are 6-9 will you change yours?

 :P

Online camboon

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #307 on: June 25, 2009, 06:59:24 PM »
If we are 6 - 9 we will rejoice - NOT , if we are 5 -17 we will be calling for the execution of the people within our club the accept being average is goos enough!

Finishing last wont win anything but it will stop this delusional bull dust that we are close to being a finals side.

WE NEED GOOD PLAYERS , a united club and management who are strong and will not diverge from the hard decisions that must be made. Well I guess they don't have to be made if you all would like to keep finishing AVERAGE

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #308 on: June 26, 2009, 01:10:44 AM »
we require another batch of kids to reboot for '10

comming 9th is not going to help

need to get away from the Walls-Geishen-Frawley era

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #309 on: June 26, 2009, 01:16:00 AM »
Then have a look at Geelong. How long now have they been dominating in this competition? 4 years? It's just their bad luck that the sides they've faced in finals/grand finals have been higher quality than Brisbane who didn't dominate like Geelong have. Give them 3 years with Essendon, Collingwood, Collingwood and Pt Adelaide as Grand Final opponents and they'd broken Brisbane's record to be beside Melbourne with 4 in a row.

But yet people keep pleading for the tank - get the best kids in the draft, fill our list with the best talent and hope they all live up to their potential. Remember priority picks don't always net the best players - how far down was James Hird taken? Pick 79!!

Geelong midfeild:

James Bartel - pick 8 2001 draft
Joel Corey - pick 8 1999 draft
Joel Selwood - pick 7 2006 draft
Gary Ablett - F/S pick 2001 draft
Brad Ottens - pick 2 1999 draft
James Kelly - pick 17 2001 draft

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #310 on: June 26, 2009, 01:33:03 AM »
Quote
You always teach the kids winning is everything, even when tanking. Tanking is in the lineup of the side, the kids will go out there and try 100% but it doesn't mean they realise we're trying to throw games to obtain better draft picks. More than likely they will lose because they aren't good enough yet and some of them aren't ready for AFL football.

I don't know how many times I have to say it for you to get it. While I don't think we're aggressively tanking right at this minute, as we would probably see Gourdis, Post, Putt a lot sooner than we have, the signs are there with Joel Bowden and Nathan Brown on the sidelines, etc along with a ton of experience. Hopefully it stays this way too and they continue down this, let's say 'list management' aka softcore tanking path.

Trust me if all we were focused on was winning we wouldn't be playing Tyrone Vickery, Tom Hislop, Alex Rance and the likes because even though they're BF hated options, the guys on the sidelines will most likely do a better job at getting you a win as those kids are in very early stages of development. We have drove ourselves into a corner where we have to tank as we relied on older players to win us game for so long and now they're all at the end of the road we're left with massive holes in the list and no quick fix option which history suggests we love so much. It has caught up with us, albeit very slowly and the Swans are in a similar position even though their problems are a lot worse. A bunch of old timers and not enough quality kids coming through to fill the gaps and a rampaging GC/WS with a bunch of cash and draft picks ready to bend over everybody over come trade/draft day.

FooffooValve

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #311 on: June 26, 2009, 09:41:14 AM »

Geelong midfeild:

James Bartel - pick 8 2001 draft
Joel Corey - pick 8 1999 draft
Joel Selwood - pick 7 2006 draft
Gary Ablett - F/S pick 2001 draft
Brad Ottens - pick 2 1999 draft
James Kelly - pick 17 2001 draft


Richmond midfield:

Brett Deledio - pick 1
Richard Tambling - pick 4
Trent Cotchin - pick 2
Ben Cousins - F/S
Adam Pattison - pick 16
Ty Vickery - pick 8
Dean Polo - pick 20

Your point?



Online camboon

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #312 on: June 26, 2009, 01:08:09 PM »
His point is Geelong has a quality midfielders that came from top 10 - 20 draft picks and not from latter picks - good point - 

Offline mightytiges

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #313 on: June 26, 2009, 01:44:48 PM »
Probably the saddest thing for people with opinions like you and me MT is that the club isn't tanking and probably won't start tanking unless the ship has already sailed.  :'(
If we are 3-12 after the next 3 tough games (St K, Adel, Carl) then you would hope the club would change its mind but I won't hold my breath.

If we are 6-9 will you change yours?

 :P
After seeing our 3 ins this week we won't be 6-9. We are playing our list. If by some miracle we did end up 6-9 then that'd be an indictment on our playing group. Seriously if we were good enough to win the next 3 games then we shouldn't have lost anymore than 3 games so far and we should be expecting a undefeated run home. Apart from the first 3 rounds we had a good draw this year. There are more mediocre teams this year than ever going by the ladder where 7-6 gets you a top 4 spot. We simply weren't and aren't anywhere near good enough to even beat these mediocre sides.
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FooffooValve

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #314 on: June 26, 2009, 02:04:42 PM »
His point is Geelong has a quality midfielders that came from top 10 - 20 draft picks and not from latter picks - good point - 

It's not a great point. Geelong haven't had PP's and haven't had a pick higher than 7. Also conveniently forgot to mention some of their finest players - Chapman, Ling, Steve Johnson. I wonder why?

Our list is littered with top 20 picks.

I'm not saying that we couldn't use more high picks (of course) but to turn the whole club around to give us one extra top pick is letting the tail wag the dog. It's akin to saying after a bad loss, "Well, we were playing St Kilda." Or, well, we were playing in Perth."

If people seriously believe that our problems are solved by an extra high pick or two, really, they're kidding themselves. Geelong realised that and did something about it, and, believe me, it had nothing to do with engineered losses.

Let's hope our review shows us something similar.