IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]

[Francois Jackson]

Infamy's point is IF we are in the position to win against top sides with a young team then we should take those wins if they come about

I was interested to read people's views because this topic is about tanking (which I am against BTW) and it appears that some people want a complete tank (eg big tone), others want a partial tank subject to conditions (eg you), while some just want to see the kids played and let the results be what they are (eg me).

I must admit, I have to add another condition to my POV, I'm purely talking about this week coming up. If we are 4-8 after Round 13 then we can still make the finals. It's unlikely, but if the young team can beat StKilda then they may get enough confidence to finish the season strongly with a pretty easy run in the 2nd half of the season.

If we have won two in a row, including knocking off StKilda, then our following games against Adelaide in GC, Carlton, North, Essendon, Melbourne, Sydney @ MCG, Collingwood, Hawks & West Coast are all winnable. Not sure we can win 8 of them, but who knows. If we lose against StKilda as expected, then I think we need to continue bringing in more and more kids, winning against top sides is great, beating middle of the road sides to help us finish mid table is just going to stifle our development.

If we are 3-17 going into Round 21 against Hawthorn and 2 goals up in the 4th quarter, they I'd say it's pretty stupid to try and win unless we are going to try and tank against the West Coast Tankers the following week. Finishing this season with 5-7 wins against only bottom 4 teams would be a tragedy and an indictment on our football commitee.

How fooled were we all with that win last year.

The Hawks then delivered the ultimate insult by winning the Flag.

Infamy and big tone never have been more correct in any posts they have made.

What a complete and utter waste of time finishing with 6 wins opposed to 4. Seriously open your eyes people.

[Infamy]

I don't think we were fooled by the win against Hawthorn, if anything it just showed the football world that you could beat the zone and other teams are using similar tactics this year to beat them.

[1965]

I don't think we were fooled by the win against Hawthorn, if anything it just showed the football world that you could beat the zone and other teams are using similar tactics this year to beat them.

Does this mean that TW actually did something right in the four and a half years he was coach?

Now where's Jackstar?

 

[big tone]

Infamy's point is IF we are in the position to win against top sides with a young team then we should take those wins if they come about

I was interested to read people's views because this topic is about tanking (which I am against BTW) and it appears that some people want a complete tank (eg big tone), others want a partial tank subject to conditions (eg you), while some just want to see the kids played and let the results be what they are (eg me).

I must admit, I have to add another condition to my POV, I'm purely talking about this week coming up. If we are 4-8 after Round 13 then we can still make the finals. It's unlikely, but if the young team can beat StKilda then they may get enough confidence to finish the season strongly with a pretty easy run in the 2nd half of the season.

If we have won two in a row, including knocking off StKilda, then our following games against Adelaide in GC, Carlton, North, Essendon, Melbourne, Sydney @ MCG, Collingwood, Hawks & West Coast are all winnable. Not sure we can win 8 of them, but who knows. If we lose against StKilda as expected, then I think we need to continue bringing in more and more kids, winning against top sides is great, beating middle of the road sides to help us finish mid table is just going to stifle our development.

If we are 3-17 going into Round 21 against Hawthorn and 2 goals up in the 4th quarter, they I'd say it's pretty stupid to try and win unless we are going to try and tank against the West Coast Tankers the following week. Finishing this season with 5-7 wins against only bottom 4 teams would be a tragedy and an indictment on our football commitee.

Lets just keep it simple- play the kids, loose but loose well, let them run and kick long, if they make mistakes, fine but let them 'play'. Don't tag, just go head to head, and encourage them to take risks. We have nothing to loose but games and that's what will get us the best result going forward.
Even the thought of an incoming coach will change if they have a good chance to pick up early draft picks. It may even be the difference between getting the coach we want! 

[mightytiges]

Once again you confuse the result of these last 10 games (ie either a win or loss) with the process of winning. I have not and have never said that it is important that we win these games to begin create a strong long term culture. What I have said is that it is important that we prepare the side to win at all costs. These games are only meaningless if we tank, and by tanking I mean not just playing young players, but playing people in strange positions, playing kids that aren't ready, taking off guns at crucial moments etc.

I would argue that ensuring that we don't win more than 4 games, either by playing very weak teams or by actually manufacturing losses, is the epitomy of short-term thinking.

Playing a midfielder in Stenglein in a back-pocket on Morton while youngsters Selwood, Ebert, Masten and co. learn how to play midfield together isn't short term thinking by Worsfold yet it cost them game as Morton kicked 5 for us. The Hawks lead by 7 goals at half-time against us in 2005 with their priority pick on the line and funnily enough after some dodgy moves they got run over by a kick with Petts kicking the winner. Carlton and Collingwood all pulled off guns or put them in the medical room in the second half of the season when they were after a priority pick. They'll be playing finals this year. Funny how most other clubs 'tank' by playing their kids yet it hasn't done their culture and processes of winning any harm, yet at Richmond who has been in mediocreland for the whole history of the draft, tanking should be a no-no ???.

Stripes' post is spot on  . Watching Coburg today only reaffirms in my mind we need a cleanout to turn over the list quickly and to get as much quality on our list as possible to replace the duds we have who can't perform even at VFL level.

Foofoovalue - the remainder of the season should be seen as an opportunity to test the players so if we can move them into alternative positions and roles to see if they are better suited/and or could fill a need if injuries/situation dictates it, then why would this be a problem.

I want to build a strong team for the future and playing the youth, testing the list and, if required, playing potential/raw players over more experienced players to gauge their worth, is all very much an important strategy toward that. Call it tanking or call it building for the future but wins should always be the goal of the team...just not always the administration and just as Cris Connolly said when interviewed in todays paper refering to the draft - 'You can't make Chicken Salad out of Chicken %#$^'. Sound familiar?

We need more quality added to our list to replace those who are too old or underperforming and the only real way to do that in the current climate is to finish down the bottom. Takes an astute club to give the illusion of trying to win to the supporters, instilling in the list that losing is unacceptable but making the growth of the list and future of the club its number one priority.

Wins are worthless at this stage unless they are a step towards future success and its hard to see how a close win against a weak side like WC, Fremantle or North is helping our players or club.

Its all about the future now not the moment

Stripes

Tell me, out of these 6 people, who do you think are the 3 most important people at Geelong, in terms of winning premierships: Mark Thompson, Brian Cook, Joel Selwood, Frank Costa, Neil Balme, Brad Ottens.

Everyone is important as everyone needs to do their part. Those off-field can't succeed without those onfield being of top quality and vice-versa. You want the best people at all levels of the club. I'm not disagreeing with that. I have been critical of those off-field as well. However, while off-field decisions are independent of wins/losses over the next 10 weeks, decisions on our playing list and what delisting and recruiting options we'll have do depend on results as the draft rules stipulate a 4 win limit for a priority pick. Right now we don't have anywhere near the best people at a playing list level. It's not just as simple as get a new coach in and make them work harder or them finding a winning mentality. Many of our players are simply not up to AFL standard to begin with no matter how hard they try or what they think. The 'process of winning' requires a talented list to begin with so it does depend on results or lack of them over the next 10 weeks thanks to the draft rules. The draft rules are stupid as they encourage tanking but they are the rules. Our list is ordinary and still has far too many holes in it thanks to continually poor short-term recruiting decisions and never truly bottoming out. As the National draft offers and delivers the best talent especially early on (something the RFC has never understood), for us to maximise our ability to get the best at a playing list and recruiting level we cannot afford to win more than 4 games. 10 weeks of short-term pain for the long-term benefit of 3 top 20 picks and with that the greater ability to cut deeper into our list on top of picking up 3 talented kids as opposed to only 1. It's a no brainer!

[FooffooValve]

The 'process of winning' requires a talented list to begin with...

Well, I guess this is where our thinking diverges, for Richmond anyway. I think you can prepare sides that have no hope of winning to take the field with full preparation and an attitude that they must win. It is a waste of time to send a side out with the subliminal message that they aren't required to win. That's when getting games into youngsters does become meaningless, or close to it.

As I've said, I'm not interested in what West Coast are doing, are what Carlton have done. Their cultures are so different from ours it isn't funny. We can't afford to 'play games' with our non-existent culture. I believe we are actually in a fragile state, not because of our list but because of our lack of a genuine winning culture right through the entire club. It wouldn't matter if we had picks 1 and 3 or 3 and 19 or whatever, we won't be able to capitalise on the talent until we turn our attention to our club culture. Once we turn our gaze solely to one or two draft picks to save ourselves, we take our eyes off the real hard ball.

You're free to disagree, and you may be right, we may be a couple of high picks away from a flag. Time will tell.

[camboon]

Can't agree that it good to have a winning culture but how about last years premiers are you worried about how they did it.

They just played the kids after trading off senior players - yes we cant do that but we don't have to play guys who wont be on the list. We also don't have to play players who are carrying injuries as they should be sent off so they are right for next year.

Don't want to change your mind but I'm hoping the whole club is willing to take some loss pain this year so our kids can be proud to follow the Tigers.

PS: We have been trying to have a winning culture with mediocre players for 25 years and the proofs in the pudding.

[Smokey]

PS: We have been trying to have a winning culture with mediocre players for 25 years and the proofs in the pudding.

Really?  I can't recall one period in the past 25 years when we have adopted and tried to implement a culture change - that's been our problem.  Our culture is what it is - a failure.  This whole argument of culture vs tanking is 'chicken and egg'.  As always history will tell us who was right - bring on the next messiah.

[Stripes]

PS: We have been trying to have a winning culture with mediocre players for 25 years and the proofs in the pudding.

Really?  I can't recall one period in the past 25 years when we have adopted and tried to implement a culture change - that's been our problem.  Our culture is what it is - a failure.  This whole argument of culture vs tanking is 'chicken and egg'.  As always history will tell us who was right - bring on the next messiah.

I think you are right- time will tell but the point I think camboon is making is that regardless of what culture changes we tries to make, we were destined to fail given the players we had. Firstly they had been part of a losing/selfish culture for their careers and passed that on and secondily they did not have the collective talent to win regardless of their culture.

But yes - bring on the next coach that is bound to lead us to glory....just hope he can find us some players to take with him. 

Stripes

[camboon]

PS: We have been trying to have a winning culture with mediocre players for 25 years and the proofs in the pudding.

Really?  I can't recall one period in the past 25 years when we have adopted and tried to implement a culture change - that's been our problem.  Our culture is what it is - a failure.  This whole argument of culture vs tanking is 'chicken and egg'.  As always history will tell us who was right - bring on the next messiah.

I can tell you for a fact that the numerous coaching and management staff have tried to change the culture within the club and as I mentioned whilst we recuited rejects and had fractured suppoert it all fell away very quickly - you can't half fix this problem and you must have the clay to work with in the first place.

I think the real debate is hear whether you can make the finals with our current list by whipping them harder and if it serves any purpose by winning games against sides that are manageing their lists to ensure they have close losses so they ensure they make the finals before we ever will.  I hear if you stop banging your head against the wall it stops hurting!

[HD]

How does that old saying go - "A team of champions is never as good as a champion team" - that's probably slightly off but close enough.

Culture, attitude and spirit have almost as big a part in this game as skill does. Look at the Lions, premiers 3 years running until egos and attitudes got in the way and then a dramatic fall from grace. West Coast?? Sydney?? Hawthorn - it only took them one year to lose half of thier impact and hold over the league. Unless this is their secret plan "Win a Grand Final, Tank for Picks, Win a Grand Final, Tank for Picks"??? Somehow i doubt it.

Then have a look at Geelong. How long now have they been dominating in this competition? 4 years? It's just their bad luck that the sides they've faced in finals/grand finals have been higher quality than Brisbane who didn't dominate like Geelong have. Give them 3 years with Essendon, Collingwood, Collingwood and Pt Adelaide as Grand Final opponents and they'd broken Brisbane's record to be beside Melbourne with 4 in a row.

The difference between Hawks, Lions, Eagles, Swans and Geelong - culture and attitude. They didn't fire Bomber Thompson mid-season (not that i'm against getting rid of TW) and they ended up wooden spooners - they kept their focus, kept their culture and spirit and look at them now.

But yet people keep pleading for the tank - get the best kids in the draft, fill our list with the best talent and hope they all live up to their potential. Remember priority picks don't always net the best players - how far down was James Hird taken? Pick 79!!

[Judge Roughneck]

Hird was drafted one year ago or 15 years ago? The nature of drafting has changed alot. Superstars such as Hird have little chance of falling outside the top 10, let alone pick 70.

After watching Coburg effort on Saturday the club needs as many talented young players as possible.

[Infamy]

hadynd88 - Geelong have been dominating the competition for 2.5 years not 4, they finished in 10th place in 2006

[FooffooValve]

Hird was drafted one year ago or 15 years ago? The nature of drafting has changed alot. Superstars such as Hird have little chance of falling outside the top 10, let alone pick 70.

After watching Coburg effort on Saturday the club needs as many talented young players as possible.

Agree that we need as many youngsters as possible.

Citing Geelong isn't going to help the tanking argument — they haven't had a pick inside the top 7 for yonks, and some of their superstars are later picks eg Ling 38, Chapman 31, Enright 47, Johnson 24. Even Egan at 62.

Geelong is an example of how to hang on to picks, trade for more and then develop, develop, develop the list and bring players into a winning environment.

Our player development is depressingly bad. It takes us 5 years to get our players to a level that it takes other teams 1, 2 or 3.

[camboon]

Very Good point that Geelong keeps their kids and doesn't bring in players unless they are critical to team balance (Ottens - mmm) The clubs usually let players go that have baggage  or are past their use by dates. We pick up some of these players and I'm guessing they don't always add to our culture. At the best we should only pick up other clubs discards and they are usually discard whether manufactured or genuine in the pre season and only after our recruiters are sure there is absolutely nothing left in the national draft taking a punt on ( funny how we have brought some Rookies on)

Also Geelong have the greatest luck in the history of the game with the father /son rule - Ablett, Scarlett