Author Topic: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]  (Read 45633 times)

Offline Stripes

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #165 on: June 05, 2009, 10:59:26 AM »
Fooffoovalue - I think we are all agreeing that culture is essential to creating a strong and successful club. Its just the timeline we are disagreeing about.

The fact is is that it is very unlikely regardless of which caretaker coach is brought in that our culture will change before the end of the year given that this intrim coach is merely filling time until the year's. They make some changes, alter the game plan slightly etc but no significant changes can be made until the club has consistent leadership. This will only occur when a long term coach is employed at the end of the year.

So taking this into account what difference with winning 4 games or 6 games to our long term culture?

In addition you mention draft picks make little difference in the end. I ask you this then if you had a young Deledio (Pick 1) or JON (Pick 8) which player would benefit more and perform better from the education and culture you herald? What about even Cotchin(No 2) and Riewoldt(No 8) ?

Picking up a high first round pick can be the difference between getting a star player and a good player and no matter how much education/development a player recieves they can only every reach a certain level.

This is why looking to the draft THIS year is more important that attempting any half-hearted, short term change of culture which will only be changed yet again once a new coach is installed.

We all agree we need a change, its just all in the timing..... :thumbsup

Stripes

FooffooValve

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #166 on: June 05, 2009, 01:10:51 PM »
I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but by the same token, we're no that far apart.

I'm not talking about any half-hearted overnight culture change, like washing your hair or something. I'm talking about forgetting about preparing the team to lose, or hoping we lose, or sending even the vaguest message that we don't really want to win. I'm talking about our approach and attitude, and I believe that it is crucial that we start now, not after we lose some games to get a slightly better draft pick.

Culture change doesn't happen because you decide to change it. If it were that easy we'd have done it a long time ago. Culture change happens over a longer period, but it starts with things like preparation, attitude, subliminal messages about improvement, etc, not just in the playing group but throughout the club. Take Brisbane for example. They investigated every possible means of bettering their club, right down to intravenous drips at half time. The fact that the players used drips was not in itself particularly advantageous, but it was the attitude that was important. They started flying at lower altitudes for away games. Once again, it wasn't the action so much as the attitude that we look at doing anything to improve performance.

That's why I believe that talking about losing games for the sake of a draft pick is actually at odds with developing a winning attitude. It isn't smart planning, it could actually be counter-productive in terms of developing the right culture. I'd go as far as saying that 'tanking' might actually be the way to go for a stronger club with a stronger culture, but for us, I believe it is destructive because of our very weak culture. We need to do what is right for Richmond, not what looks like it might be successful for another club. At Richmond, we finally need to start looking at the solutions within the club, not look at importing solutions from outside. When we adopt that attitude, we'll start to build a winning culture.

Offline Smokey

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #167 on: June 05, 2009, 01:20:34 PM »

So taking this into account what difference with winning 4 games or 6 games to our long term culture?


It's like the diet you are starting after the weekend - you never start it.

Quote

Picking up a high first round pick can be the difference between getting a star player and a good player and no matter how much education/development a player recieves they can only every reach a certain level.


It matters far less what picks you get and far more how well you choose them.  Geelong anyone?  Sydney anyone?  Adelaide anyone?  North Melbourne anyone?  Port Adelaide anyone?  Brisbane anyone?  Collingwood anyone?

Quote

This is why looking to the draft THIS year is more important that attempting any half-hearted, short term change of culture which will only be changed yet again once a new coach is installed.


This years draft is just as important as any other year and the importance is not in the pick number but in the pick itself - surely we have learnt that lesson over time?

Quote

We all agree we need a change, its just all in the timing..... :thumbsup

Stripes

Couldn't have said that better myself Stripes.  No time like the present to make a change to something that needs changing.

Offline Smokey

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #168 on: June 05, 2009, 01:23:26 PM »
I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but by the same token, we're no that far apart.

I'm not talking about any half-hearted overnight culture change, like washing your hair or something. I'm talking about forgetting about preparing the team to lose, or hoping we lose, or sending even the vaguest message that we don't really want to win. I'm talking about our approach and attitude, and I believe that it is crucial that we start now, not after we lose some games to get a slightly better draft pick.

Culture change doesn't happen because you decide to change it. If it were that easy we'd have done it a long time ago. Culture change happens over a longer period, but it starts with things like preparation, attitude, subliminal messages about improvement, etc, not just in the playing group but throughout the club. Take Brisbane for example. They investigated every possible means of bettering their club, right down to intravenous drips at half time. The fact that the players used drips was not in itself particularly advantageous, but it was the attitude that was important. They started flying at lower altitudes for away games. Once again, it wasn't the action so much as the attitude that we look at doing anything to improve performance.

That's why I believe that talking about losing games for the sake of a draft pick is actually at odds with developing a winning attitude. It isn't smart planning, it could actually be counter-productive in terms of developing the right culture. I'd go as far as saying that 'tanking' might actually be the way to go for a stronger club with a stronger culture, but for us, I believe it is destructive because of our very weak culture. We need to do what is right for Richmond, not what looks like it might be successful for another club. At Richmond, we finally need to start looking at the solutions within the club, not look at importing solutions from outside. When we adopt that attitude, we'll start to build a winning culture.

Again FooffooValve........ :clapping :clapping :clapping

Offline Stripes

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #169 on: June 05, 2009, 01:26:23 PM »
Trying to win at all cost with weak cattle is why we have finished 9th for a record number of years. Players can only perform to their highest potential which for some on our list is not high enough to help us get a flag. Without the cattle, a winning culture is fruitless.

FooffooValve

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #170 on: June 05, 2009, 01:29:56 PM »
Without the cattle, a winning culture is fruitless.

We've got 27 years of bitter experience to prove that without the winning culture, the cattle are useless.

Offline Smokey

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #171 on: June 05, 2009, 01:32:40 PM »
Trying to win at all cost with weak cattle is why we have finished 9th for a record number of years. Players can only perform to their highest potential which for some on our list is not high enough to help us get a flag. Without the cattle, a winning culture is fruitless.

I disagree.  I think a winning culture gets a team playing above themselves - Sydney and North Melbourne are 2 excellent examples.  We don't have a lot of weak cattle when it comes to ability - we do when it comes to knowing how to use that ability to win.  How many times this year have we been in absolute winning positions only to blow it?  Weak cattle doesn't get you to that point.  A winning culture would see us at about 7-3 this year with the same cattle.

Offline blaisee

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #172 on: June 05, 2009, 01:44:43 PM »
The fact of the matter is we have 10 players on our list that would get a game at any other club. The rest are over 30,  not good enough or unproven.

The other fact is that our best 2 players lids and cotch were both priority picks.

Look at what west coast are doing,

they won a flag in 2006 and are lining up for their second priority pick this year, they are the most professional club in Australia. We have made finals twice in the last 30 years and are debating the merits of tanking.

Its a joke, we need to win less than 5 games, its critical



Hellenic Tiger

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #173 on: June 05, 2009, 01:53:29 PM »
The fact of the matter is we have 10 players on our list that would get a game at any other club. The rest are over 30,  not good enough or unproven.

The other fact is that our best 2 players lids and cotch were both priority picks.

Look at what west coast are doing,

they won a flag in 2006 and are lining up for their second priority pick this year, they are the most professional club in Australia. We have made finals twice in the last 30 years and are debating the merits of tanking.

Its a joke, we need to win less than 5 games, its critical




Makes sense no more than 4 wins. Agree :thumbsup

Offline Stripes

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #174 on: June 05, 2009, 01:54:53 PM »
We've got 27 years of bitter experience to prove that without the winning culture, the cattle are useless.

That has as much to do with the players as it does with the culture. Surely after 10 + coaches, one of them has had the foresight to instigate a change in culture yet her we stand, flagless. We have never allowed ourselves to rebuild and start with talented youth which is why we have never been successful. The last coach who tried was KB but he was never able to complete the process but the side he built got us to the finals at least after he was expelled.

This is the first time we have even attempted to rebuild from scatch and many on here would agree that we only did a half-arsed job at that. All the same though the job remains unfinished and unless we build up the raw talent to work with no matter what culature we build in this club, even if the players play above themselves smokey, we will never achieve the heights we can because we are still missing pieces to the puzzle.

We have 27 years of bitter experience to prove that without the cattle, a wiining culture is useless. :P ;)

Stripes

Offline Stripes

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #175 on: June 05, 2009, 01:56:43 PM »
The fact of the matter is we have 10 players on our list that would get a game at any other club. The rest are over 30,  not good enough or unproven.

The other fact is that our best 2 players lids and cotch were both priority picks.

Look at what west coast are doing,

they won a flag in 2006 and are lining up for their second priority pick this year, they are the most professional club in Australia. We have made finals twice in the last 30 years and are debating the merits of tanking.

Its a joke, we need to win less than 5 games, its critical


Great post  :clapping :clapping :clapping

Offline Stripes

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #176 on: June 05, 2009, 02:04:43 PM »
Quote
The importance is not in the pick number but in the pick itself - surely we have learnt that lesson over time?

Have to agree with you here smokey. You have to live with your choices but I guess having a higher pick gives you more choices and, in some ways, easier ones. You have speculate and hope less on player development and pick ready made talent. That's why we didn't stuff up the Lids pick but missed on the Meyer pick.

This is an interesting argument here none the less. I can see your side perfectly but I think we are just coming at the same problem at different angles.

Stripes


Offline Chuck17

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #177 on: June 05, 2009, 02:17:37 PM »
Look at what west coast are doing,

they won a flag in 2006 and are lining up for their second priority pick this year, they are the most professional club in Australia. We have made finals twice in the last 30 years and are debating the merits of tanking.

Its a joke, we need to win less than 5 games, its critical

How do we go about that against West Coast and Melbourne who are the poster boys of tanking clubs?

It should make for interesting game viewing, is there a requirement you need to keep 18 players on the field, maybe we could play 14 or so.

Ramps

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #178 on: June 05, 2009, 02:21:22 PM »
The fact of the matter is we have 10 players on our list that would get a game at any other club. The rest are over 30,  not good enough or unproven.

The other fact is that our best 2 players lids and cotch were both priority picks.

Look at what west coast are doing,

they won a flag in 2006 and are lining up for their second priority pick this year, they are the most professional club in Australia. We have made finals twice in the last 30 years and are debating the merits of tanking.

Its a joke, we need to win less than 5 games, its critical




I dont believe what Im reading, I could swear that you didnt believe in the Tank and that weve debated this issue before and we were on opposite sides. Well its good to see you join the realists amongst us. And yes I even agree with you on WCE. Last year I think I did a summary of were all club lists were at and from memory I was extremely bullish on the Eagles going forward. Theyre tanking beautifully and in 3 years they will be a powerhouse again.

Offline Chuck17

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #179 on: June 05, 2009, 02:35:25 PM »
How many times this year have we been in absolute winning positions only to blow it?  Weak cattle doesn't get you to that point.  A winning culture would see us at about 7-3 this year with the same cattle.

It has been Port, Sydney, Essendon and Geelong.  As you said Smokey the season that could have been.