IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]

[FooffooValve]

I agree that we need plenty of picks and we need to play the youngsters. I won't agree that we need to sacrifice self respect and winning processes to get them though. Our list is not nearly as bad as the current win-loss ratio suggests, and we are nowhere near realising our potential.

Our player development and team ethics are deplorable and we need to address these problems more than we need to lose. If we begin to address that and still end up with 4 wins, fine. But it wouldn't worry me a jot if we win 5 more games if I can see that we are making headway in these areas. Much more important and should be our main focus.

[sabartooth]

i rekon it depends what type of games we win. if we bet top 4-6 teams in games they want to win and we play with style and skill most would be happy, but more wins like the freo one by a few points and lots of injuries is pointless and doesn't get us anywhere!

[mightytiges]

I agree that we need plenty of picks and we need to play the youngsters. I won't agree that we need to sacrifice self respect and winning processes to get them though. Our list is not nearly as bad as the current win-loss ratio suggests, and we are nowhere near realising our potential.

Our player development and team ethics are deplorable and we need to address these problems more than we need to lose. If we begin to address that and still end up with 4 wins, fine. But it wouldn't worry me a jot if we win 5 more games if I can see that we are making headway in these areas. Much more important and should be our main focus.

I know I'm not going to change your mind FFV and vice versa which is fine as it's all opinions. Having said that I don't see 'tanking' and playing a side full of kids which is unlikely to win yet in doing so gets AFL games and experience into them and better draft picks as well, sacrificing self-respect and winning processes. I remember us giving a Geelong side in 2000 a 77 point hiding at the Dome when Ling, Corey, Enright and co. were first gamers and Thomson was in his first year as coach. It didn't do them any harm in the long-term. Likewise the first two years of Clarkson's reign were mostly losing ones for the Hawks following on from 3 years of no finals under Schwab. They lost 12 from 13 games at one stage in 2006 and were playing shocking over-handball footy to a point where people were questioning whether Clarkson was up to it. They took their medicine bottoming out and putting the long-term future ahead of the present. I'm sure Clarkson could have played/kept a couple more senior players to grab an extra win or two and pushed them higher up the ladder missing out on priority picks but he kept his focus on what was best for Hawthorn long-term and what would build the best list for them. He also had the full support in doing so from the HFC Board. They didn't flip-flop like ours when it came to the footy team.

As for our list we do now have a young core to (re-)build around but we are still a long long way off and need to add more quality youngsters. There's potential but history shows not all of them will make it. We are essentially where Hawthorn was in 2004. We need to go through a second phase of rebuilding and bottoming out to add more youngsters with class to the list. In the end we want to build a premiership side rather then one that just scrapes into the final 8. The problem in the past is we as a club have overrated ourselves and our list. If we believe this current list is not far off then we are kidding ourselves. Now that's not to say it's a basketcase list given the number of U23's we have but we need to bottom out and add more youngsters and more classy ones to complete the job otherwise we'll still be debating where Richmond is at in another 30 years  .

We can't have our cake and eat it too as far as wins as well as plenty of good draft picks. In the situation we are in now at 2-9 and sitting 15th you don't get more and better picks winning 3 or more games in the second half of the season and finishing higher on the ladder. The draft system doesn't allow for it. In fact it penalises you for doing so  . Our trade options are limited given the number of dud list cloggers we have that no other club would want so we need the early picks and especially the priority pick to give us more room to offload those who are responsible for a poor playing culture and are simply not up to it. I agree FFV our player development and team ethics are deplorable but what do we expect when we have so many selfish and/or ordinary players that we keep hold onto for far too long and in some cases years because we don't/can't take an axe to the list with so few picks. We still need to take more medicine as painful as it is in the short term under the current draft system to eventually get to where we all want Richmond to get to = a regular top 4 side and that elusive 11th flag.

[FooffooValve]

Agree that we need to take our medicine, but I'd rather develop our own immunity rather than take the antibiotics.

Put another way, what are the factors that have produced such an apparently underperforming list? We need to properly identify and correct these fundamentals before we need to address the list. It might well be possible to do both simultaneously, but all I'm saying is, given a choice, I'd rather see us address some fundamental deficiencies in our on and off field structure and processes than lay low for half a season. If we can achieve both, fine, but if we don't address some basics, then I can see the list (no matter what the make-up) underperforming ad infinitum. And if addressing these problems now means that we win some games, then that is palatable, even preferable to losing games. I'd also rather see us trade for picks than lose for them — something we haven't done enough of in the past.

I'm not really interested in comparisons with Carlton or Hawthorn or any other club because our problems are unique to Richmond. Our culture is our own (unfortunately), and following someone else's course is dangerous as it assumes all other factors are equal. I would say that Hawthorn's culture (and Carlton's, and West Coast's) are far far stronger than ours, and can handle a measured "tank". I just don't believe that it is Richmond's best option right now — it is one option and not without merit, but I don't believe it is the most productive long term option.

Really, if winning premierships were just as simple as collecting the most high draft picks, then we may as well just stop playing games and give the flag to the club with the mostest. I'm with Demetriou on this one — clubs that put their store in tanking for picks as the solution to problems have their priorities skewed.

[HD]

I can't believe that the best idea many people can come up with going forward is to tank - for a club with some admitted culture problems that we are slowly turning around, tanking will only set us back 5 years.

Imagine your at work the first half of the year is down on profits, the bosses blame the managers, the workers turn on them as well and the investors scream for blood then the new caretaker manager gets told "Don't perform too well for the 2nd half of the year so we can attract some young guns to come in next year and in a couple of years when they're ready - they'll take us to the top".......................... Doesn't make any sense outside of footy and doesn't make much sense in footy.

This will give players the impression that they aren't good enough for the Tigers and they're never going to be, the caretaker will have no desire to rally the troops into any kind of decent performance because his time at the top and eventual fate has already been decided. Really inspiring considering we want a big turn around in attitudes next year (if not this year).

If we want to continue changing the bad culture developed by Frawley and others and give supporters something to look forward too, aim at 8th, expect 12th finish 10th. Can be done and should be done.

[Stripes]

Finishing 9th got us us no where last year, finishing 10th will be just as benefical to both our culture and future.

Its more baout how we play over the remainder of the year and who we play with rather than the position we finish.

I hope we play the kids and finish with under 5 wins but if we play the kids and win more then at least I know we are on the right path for the future. Playing our older guys now is pointless.

Stripes

[Judge Roughneck]

good to see a young Richmond side on the park this week.

finally

[Mopsy]

Let's forget all this tanking crap and get out there and play football

[camboon]

Agree Mopsy  , now we dropped 6 players over 25 and brought in 6 under 22. YES, if we win with the kids its just good all round.
PS: never saw Mopsy play but I wish I had, Mopsy and Jack, now they were the days when Tigers were real Tigers

[big tone]

Some really good posts on this topic and i have enjoyed reading both sides to the story BUT i must admit i hope we play the kids so we loose! To me it is black and white, don't win more than 5 games and get early picks to make our list better.
The culture of the club is bad because we cannot win enough games each year- get a better list together, win games and the culture thing takes care of it's self. SIMPLE!!
And going on todays selections the RFC have the same idea in mind- thank God!

Everything the RFC has done in the last week (appointing Jade and dropping old heads) has said this is the direction we are going weather they say it or not!  be smart!

[mightytiges]

Agree that we need to take our medicine, but I'd rather develop our own immunity rather than take the antibiotics.

Put another way, what are the factors that have produced such an apparently underperforming list? We need to properly identify and correct these fundamentals before we need to address the list. It might well be possible to do both simultaneously, but all I'm saying is, given a choice, I'd rather see us address some fundamental deficiencies in our on and off field structure and processes than lay low for half a season. If we can achieve both, fine, but if we don't address some basics, then I can see the list (no matter what the make-up) underperforming ad infinitum. And if addressing these problems now means that we win some games, then that is palatable, even preferable to losing games. I'd also rather see us trade for picks than lose for them — something we haven't done enough of in the past.

Fair enough question. What factors have produced such an apparently underperforming list?

I guess a short reply is another question - Is this list actually underperforming or are we truly where we are at?!

Anyway what factors? Okay IMHO.....

1) Personnel
Simply put our lists including 95 and 2001 (outclassed and blown away in 2 out of 3 finals both times) have never been since 1983 anywhere near good enough to go with the more skillful and classier sides. We've in the past 15 years shown the classic signs of a club that has struggled for a long time. We overrate the playing list as soon as we win more games than we lose. Even now we are not underachieving or at least we cannot kid ourselves we are underachieving. The scoreboard and ladder never lies. In a year where 4/5s of the comp is mediocre we are sitting 15th four games and % behind even these mediocre teams after just 11 rounds. A blunt summation of the season is we've been outclassed in virtually every game even against Melbourne  . We try our guts out for 2 quarters and each time we get a sniff the opposition shift into another higher gear and we get left for dead. We need a significant addition of class into our playing list and the best chance of doing that is via early picks in the National draft and a number of them.

As I said we have some talented youngsters and a young core now to (re-)build around and all is not lost but we have only done half a job. To complete the rebuild we need to go to the well again and bottom out scoring as many early picks as possible. Trading blokes like Schulz, JON, Petts, Jordie, King and alike won't get you those early picks. Cogs won't either. You'll be lucky to even get a late pick for any of them. Unless you're willing to trade say a 27 year old Tuck or some quality youngster with potential then only tanking this year will enable us to score three top 20 picks needed to begin the necessary second rebuilding phase. We need to do it this year as well as opportunities will be limited due to the new teams coming in and raiding the drafts from 2010-12.

2) A man's team's got to know his their limitations!
We allow expectations to well exceed the abilities of our list and then talk up these expectations even further in the media. That is asking for trouble and is a waiting disaster. When reality hits it totally devestates confidence and belief. Mentally it must be totally shattering for the playing group let alone us supporters to have such high hopes crushed within week or so into a new season and realising what high expectations you had you'll never get anywhere near and 6 months of hard preseason training equates to zip! It happened under Spud in round 2, 2002 against Essendon and now in round 1 this year under Wallace. Both coaches were deadman walking to use a Herald-Sun headline from those respective games. Geisch's Waterloo was round 22, 1998 but everyone knew with the club making no changes after that debacle he'd be a gonna by 1999. In each case the playing list and especially the older core were also goners and a cleanout and rebuild was required. After 1998 and 2002 we didn't have a cleanout and didn't rebuild. Let's not make the same mistake this time around.

3) Resources
Well we've know for ages we've been one of if not the worst club in terms of resources or lack of. 16th in spending on the footy dept., no development coachs until 2 years ago, facilities dating back to the 80s at best, no permanent or quality preseason training base (Vic Park ain't it  ), etc. This should improve dramatically by 2011 with the new MCG size Craigieburn facility and the Punt Rd realignment (Dome size) and total redevelopment giving us finally state of the art facilities to train, recover and develop our players. We've added development coaches. Next up would be looking at our fitness, conditioning and medical areas. I'm presuming this review would have looked into the latter. Our improving finances should give us greater scope to move in all areas of the footy dept. especially recruiting and having more scouts out and about. That's another argument for grabbing as many early draft picks as we can. We are finally starting to arrange a fully equip recruiting dept. that we need to compete in the AFL 2009 and beyond rather than one person beit Miller, Beck or whoever left to do our recruiting by themselves like we are back in the 1960s. The majority of our current list was chosen under the latter deficient 'process'. Now that we are putting in more money, resources and personnel into our recruiting let's give our recruiting staff the best chance to bring the best young talent in numbers to our Club via the National draft.

4) Leadership
No argument here it's been poor. Not only within the playing group but right through the Club up to the top. The Club needs to shut up for once and let what happens onfield do the talking. We've been a gunna club - we're gunna do this and we're gunna do that. No more false promises and false dawns. Just shut up! The leaders of the club also need to present a firm, clear and consistent position for the rest of the club to follow. They need to set the standard. You can't have mixed messages coming out of Punt Rd where we're rebuilding via youth one minute, trading picks away for 22 y.o. players on the fringe the next, then rate one year a 5/10 effort but promise finals the next in the same breath as though we just had to turn up this year to make the top 8 . Same goes for the coach. We've had Spud with plan A but no plan B followed by Plough with plans A-Z but which one we played changed from week to week and year to year. Why change a gameplan and players positions over summer that was working for us  ???. Same goes for the list manager - are we truly rebuilding or not! The whole club loses focus far too easily as soon as results don't happen as quickly as we would like them and we start taking shortcuts that hurt us. Surprise surprise that is what we see also onfield.

Hopefully Rawlings' changes this week is the first sign that the whole club from top to bottom is reseting our focus back on youth and the long-term future as 2009 is a write-off.

Really, if winning premierships were just as simple as collecting the most high draft picks, then we may as well just stop playing games and give the flag to the club with the mostest. I'm with Demetriou on this one — clubs that put their store in tanking for picks as the solution to problems have their priorities skewed.

I never said winning a flag is as simple as collecting the most high picks but it is the first step to bring into the Club the best young talent that you need to build towards one. Class wins flags. The best coaching and player development programs while still being necessary components (I agree we need them too) can't compensate if the cattle is ordinary to begin with.

[mightytiges]

I can't believe that the best idea many people can come up with going forward is to tank - for a club with some admitted culture problems that we are slowly turning around, tanking will only set us back 5 years.

Imagine your at work the first half of the year is down on profits, the bosses blame the managers, the workers turn on them as well and the investors scream for blood then the new caretaker manager gets told "Don't perform too well for the 2nd half of the year so we can attract some young guns to come in next year and in a couple of years when they're ready - they'll take us to the top".......................... Doesn't make any sense outside of footy and doesn't make much sense in footy.

This will give players the impression that they aren't good enough for the Tigers and they're never going to be, the caretaker will have no desire to rally the troops into any kind of decent performance because his time at the top and eventual fate has already been decided. Really inspiring considering we want a big turn around in attitudes next year (if not this year).

If we want to continue changing the bad culture developed by Frawley and others and give supporters something to look forward too, aim at 8th, expect 12th finish 10th. Can be done and should be done.

Firstly welcome to OER hadyn 

The work analogy fails because no boss would give his managerial staff a bonus for coming last in profits and an even bigger bonus for coming last 2 years in a row. Yet the AFL does. That's the stupidity of AFL draft system and priority pick  . It penalises clubs who finish 9th or 10th while rewarding 15th and 16th.

[Stripes]

Interesting that people dismissed TW ideas of substitutes and paying clubs at the end of the season for where they finish on the ladder to give clubs an incentive to finish higher up the ladder regardless of whether they would make the finals or not, but now the AFL are looking into both senerios.

Credit where credit is due I say

Stripes

[Smokey]

Fair enough question. What factors have produced such an apparently underperforming list?

I guess a short reply is another question - Is this list actually underperforming or are we truly where we are at?!

Anyway what factors? Okay IMHO.....

1) Personnel
........
2) A man's team's got to know his their limitations!
........
3) Resources
........
4) Leadership

A good post MT and I agree with a lot of it.  While you are (in intention) mounting the case for focusing on youth and draft picks - tanking - you are (in effect) fully supporting FFV's case for changing the culture.  All the reasons that you mentioned for our failures in the past are what make up the 'culture' of the club - the thoughts, attitudes and actions that have kept us as perennial under-achievers.  And if the club is serious about addressing the complete issue then it must address each and every component in turn.  You mention the facilities, the Punt Rd redevelopment, the recruiting resources, the player development etc and all of these are now being addressed.  Obviously they couldn't be until the Board managed to turn the finances around - that had to be Step #1 and thankfully they got that right.  They are well into addressing the remainder of these other fringe elements now and if we grab our opportunity and manage it correctly then we will see gradual improvement in player development (which is really the pointy end of all these elements) over the coming years.  The last thing we need to address for our complete 'culture-changing' solution is to regain the on-field respect of every other club in the league.  We can only do that one way and we would all agree that this will be by winning matches.

And this is where our thinking diverges.  You say that we need more picks to do that but I say we don't.  I believe there is a risk to the culture change (player attitude to acceptance or fear of defeat) in doing this (tanking) with such a young list that is unacceptable.  Personally, I place an extremely high priority on this aspect of player character and if you look back at every modern premiership team there is a common thread through each - the fear of losing - every single team was never beaten until the final siren.  Which brings me to my second reason for being anti-tanking.  There is not one team I can think of that has gone on to win a premiership in the modern era after deliberately tanking.  Some have bottomed out and gained some quality picks that has helped in winning one but none that have deliberately tanked to get more.  The clubs that have been the most successful for sustained periods don't go (and have not gone) to the bottom - they have the right personnel and methods in place to draft and develop smartly and successfully.  As we are doing now (attempting at least) as per my first paragraph.  The number of the pick and the number of picks is much less relevant to them as is picking smarter and developing better - Culture with a capital C.

I know this argument can (and probably will) go on ad infinitum and in reality is probably very much a chicken and egg scenario that only history can judge.  I just know that in all my player and coach and spectator life I have always found the hardest team to beat was the one that hated to lose - the one that actually didn't even know how to lose.

[camboon]

You can still have both by investing in the kids.