Alternative guernseys

[Tiger Spirit]

Watching the Kangaroos v. Collingwood today, and in parts it has been confusing, especially when looking in the background to see if there is a 2-on-1 or 1-on-2 situation ahead. What surprises me the most is that neither team is wearing white shorts.....

One of the things that unbalances this argument is that we always attack this decision from our point of view. The AFL and broadcasters, and rightly so, are also concerned with the 'watchability' of the game for neutrals and non-believers. I could tell you which Richmond player had the ball if you took the player out and I could just see the outline. We know instinctively by the way a player runs, kicking style etc. Yet I have mates up here, some who dont follow footy yet but like the game and some who just follow the Lions who are genuinely confused when we play Essendon because the jumpers clash. I reckon it is the right thing to do and is a small enough price to pay if it is two or three times a year.

How can anyone believe the AFL when they say it will only be for 1 or 2 games?  They are kidding.  Try telling South Melbourne and Fitzroy supporters about the promises the AFL made to them once.  See how many of them still stand.  The AFL couldn’t care less if they tried.

Everyone else attacks this from their point of view, so why aren’t we able to do the same?  Why are new people coming in to the game better and more important than those who already support the game and why are we always the ones conceding for others?

If they like our game, they like it for the game it is and the way it is.  And they will learn to like it for what it is.  If they want something else then go find it, why do we have to erode our clubs and competition to suit them?

If we continue to concede on this and any issue, just to suit everybody else, we’ll have more of a bitsa competition than it already is.

Can’t we stand our ground and tell everyone if they like this competition then they like it for what it is and not what they want it to be.  Don't know of any other competition in the world that is prepared to concede as much as this competition seems to.

Sorry Jake, not having a go at anyone, I just get a bit wound up sometimes.

[mightytiges]

Copied this over from the Gary March thread. Here's the Board's view:

Board's view is we don't clash with many clubs at all - maybe only Essendon. The board doesn't believe we clash with anyone else but we've asked the AFL for clarification. We will wear an alternative strip if mandated by the AFL but the Board doesn't see the need for us to wear one. March said he doesn't believe it is for merchandise reasons from his sport merchandise experience as some people suggest as people don't wear sleeveless AFL jumpers around the street like soccer supporters do with their short sleeve tops. We want to wear our traditional guernsey and we will only wear a clash jumper when there's and if there's a clash. Not at other times.

[mightytiges]

For me, the issue is who decides these things and why.  What grips me the most is that everybody seems to be getting a say in this, except Club members.  What I don’t understand is why.

Administrators and players go from club to club and have limited stints in the AFL.  Supporters are generally with the one club for life.  Yet people, who come and go, make decisions to suit themselves, line their pockets, do what’s good for them and then go.  Stuff members/supporters, history and tradition.  We should just accept whatever decision others make on our behalf, because that’s just the way it is?  Well, I don’t accept that.

So pardon me while I continue to rant, until there’s no reason to.

Fair enough TS but it can be argued that when it comes down to our say it was/is in our vote as a member which gets back to that old topic from the 2004 election of the board being answerable to the members at each election. The board is then given the power/freedom to oversee the club's direction and make football and admin appointments but everything still must be done within the confines of the AFL. No club's constitution overides the rules of the AFL. So the boards aren't redundant but they are newted somewhat compared to the free for all prior to 1986 when the clubs individually were incapable of making fair and rational decisions for the good of the competition. The VFL had become a financial basketcase and we along with most of its clubs were in dire straits. We made a $1.5m loss equivalent to 50-60% of our annual turnover in 1985 that crippled the Club for the next decade while we got back on our feet. That's why an independent commission was set up in the first place.     

We lack a say IMO because we have been crap for 25 years. In 1980 we were the biggest club - the first club to have one million people walk through the gate. That kind of thing talks. Now the biggest clubs are the interstaters and Collingwood and Essendon. We lost our influence a long time ago and are now back in the pack with the Cats, Saints and Blues.

All those things are equally important to me as well MT.  But as far as I’m concerned, the jumper is sacred too, because there’s only one jumper Richmond has won 10 premierships in.

And sometimes I’m just really really stubborn.   I once heard someone say that we don’t have any traditions in this country.  Well, how can we have traditions when we tear them down as soon as someone criticises anything that closely resembles tradition?  We bend over backwards to accommodate and please everybody, new or old, so how can we develop any real traditions that way?  Why don’t we ever stand our ground, instead of needing to copy other countries, codes of football, or whatever, just so we can feel good about ourselves?  This game is unlike any other yet in so many ways we try to make it the same as something else.  None of that has ever made any sense to me.

The Club broke with tradition when it moved to the 'G to play its home games while keeping its admin/training base at Punt Road. In hindsight it was one of if not the best decision Richmond ever made but I wonder if there was any members' uproar against leaving Punt Road at the time?

Away from football, WSC revolutionised and reinvigorated cricket. Critics said it would destroy the traditions of the game but the traditions are now as strong as ever and we alternate between different uniforms - the traditional creams and the gold and green pyjamas lol.

[the_boy_jake]

Sorry Jake, not having a go at anyone, I just get a bit wound up sometimes.

No worries mate. I must admit it is only recently I have come around to the idea of alternative strips. I should also admit that I am doing this at a time at which my passion for the tiges is on the slide a bit. Don't know what it is, but I live in Brisbane can't be bothered going to the Gabba on Saturday. So maybe my point of view is a result of apathy rather than commonsense.... I'm not sure.

[Tiger Spirit]

Fair enough TS but it can be argued that when it comes down to our say it was/is in our vote as a member which gets back to that old topic from the 2004 election of the board being answerable to the members at each election. The board is then given the power/freedom to oversee the club's direction and make football and admin appointments but everything still must be done within the confines of the AFL. No club's constitution overides the rules of the AFL. So the boards aren't redundant but they are newted somewhat compared to the free for all prior to 1986 when the clubs individually were incapable of making fair and rational decisions for the good of the competition. The VFL had become a financial basketcase and we along with most of its clubs were in dire straits. We made a $1.5m loss equivalent to 50-60% of our annual turnover in 1985 that crippled the Club for the next decade while we got back on our feet. That's why an independent commission was set up in the first place.

I understand all that MT.  But it doesn’t seem to me that, in this case, the Board has any say in the matter.  And therefore no one who has any real affinity for, or is closely associated with the Club gets to decide this issue.  It’s basically decided for us by people who couldn’t care less about Richmond.  That’s what I disagree with.

We lack a say IMO because we have been crap for 25 years. In 1980 we were the biggest club - the first club to have one million people walk through the gate. That kind of thing talks. Now the biggest clubs are the interstaters and Collingwood and Essendon. We lost our influence a long time ago and are now back in the pack with the Cats, Saints and Blues.

We lack a say because no one says anything.  If we have to wait till we climb the ladder to have a say there may be nothing much left to fight for by the time we get there.

The Club broke with tradition when it moved to the 'G to play its home games while keeping its admin/training base at Punt Road. In hindsight it was one of if not the best decision Richmond ever made but I wonder if there was any members' uproar against leaving Punt Road at the time?

Like I’ve said before, the difference with such a decision is that the Club made that decision, with its best interests at heart, not someone sitting in front of his tv who wouldn’t know Richmond from a bar of soap.

What do others seriously care if we play at the MCG, TD, Carrara or outer space, wearing pink one week and lime green the next?  If things are going to change and need to change then let people who actually care about the direction their footy club takes to be involved in significant decisions.  Because what I really hate about this issue is that everybody else gets to have a say and we’re paid scant regard, if that.

Away from football, WSC revolutionised and reinvigorated cricket. Critics said it would destroy the traditions of the game but the traditions are now as strong as ever and we alternate between different uniforms - the traditional creams and the gold and green pyjamas lol.

They alternate uniforms in one day cricket, not test matches.  I daresay that the history and traditions that surround test matches have intentionally been kept separate to one day matches.

And it’s probably fair to say that both forms of cricket co-exist without one diminishing the relevance of the other.  That way, not only were they able to introduce a new audience to the game, but they also retained the already existing supporters.  If test matches were tampered with, there would be a huge uproar from the traditionalists.  And if the one day supporters are no longer stimulated by that form of cricket then they just cross over to 20/20.

As cricket has different forms to suit different audiences, that is their advantage, but if the AFL tries to be all things to all people, with the one competition, realistically, what can the result be, except a mish mash?  And it just sounds as though the AFL is trying to attract ‘one day supporters’ to our game and us ‘traditionalists’ have to concede our ground to them, even though they may not stick around for long.  And even though there are better ways to attract people to our game.

Why doesn’t the AFL focus on ensuring Aussie Rules is the best spectator sport in the world, because if the game itself isn’t able to attract people then it shouldn’t be up to clubs to concede on their history and traditions, in order to grow the game.  It just erodes what has been a real strength of the AFL.

Apart from anything else, until the AFL tampered with things, the jumper issue didn’t need fixing?  So fat chance I’m ever going to agree with their methods when they try to attract people on one hand and gradually disenfranchise many long term supporters on the other, for no good reason.

[mightytiges]

 But it doesn’t seem to me that, in this case, the Board has any say in the matter.  And therefore no one who has any real affinity for, or is closely associated with the Club gets to decide this issue.  It’s basically decided for us by people who couldn’t care less about Richmond.  That’s what I disagree with.

I don't disagree with that TS but that's the nature of the competition. We are just one of 16 clubs. There would be other issues Richmond would do differently as Caro in the Age today pointed out but it's the AFL that decides the direction of the game and has the final say.

If we are forced to go down this path then the Club should do its upmost to make it its decision. There is IMO a huge opportunity in this for Richmond moreso than any other club if we get it right because of our traditions such as our Y&B colours and Tiger moniker. We will still be wearing our traditional yellow sash guernsey for 20-21 weeks out of 22.

I understand TS there's some separation in cricket but I mentioned WSC for another reason too because not only were they were able to find in their way a balance between tradition and new ideas, they were also able to attact a broader and younger audience which is something we must do if we want to maintain and grow a large supporter base. I would say our supporter base is older than most which isn't good for the long term sustainability of the Club. Maybe some of these "one-day supporters" in cricket were fly by nighters but alot them stuck and along with the technical advances, test cricket is now benefitting from their continued support.   

We lack a say because no one says anything.  If we have to wait till we climb the ladder to have a say there may be nothing much left to fight for by the time we get there.

Even when the Club has its say we aren't listened to because our lack of success for 25 years and shabby finances has made us small fry. The bigger and wealthier clubs as well as the AFL can simply say no to us. Just as you don't receive respect on-field unless you are consistently successful, the same applies off-field.

[Tiger Spirit]

I don't disagree with that TS but that's the nature of the competition. We are just one of 16 clubs. There would be other issues Richmond would do differently as Caro in the Age today pointed out but it's the AFL that decides the direction of the game and has the final say.

And that’s what gripes me about this.  Clubs are just expected to tow the line and not question anything.  How many times have we seen the AFL back-track on decisions they’ve made, simply because they didn’t use common sense and logic to make decisions in the first place and ask the right people for their opinions?

Instead, they seem to fall at the feet of statistics and surveys and when it all hits the fan they have to re-think the decisions they’ve made.  If they actually asked those that decisions affect, instead of those who have barely seen a game in their lives then maybe decisions could stand the test of

time and therefore make a whole lot more sense than some of them seem to.
Some things are just trial and error, but there seem to be too many decisions that defy logic and have to be re-visited, time after time.

If we are forced to go down this path then the Club should do its upmost to make it its decision. There is IMO a huge opportunity in this for Richmond moreso than any other club if we get it right because of our traditions such as our Y&B colours and Tiger moniker. We will still be wearing our traditional yellow sash guernsey for 20-21 weeks out of 22.

If that’s what people want to believe then fair enough.  But I’ve seen how things work in the AFL and, down the track, it won’t just be 1 or 2 weeks a year.  You can almost back it in, because the AFL’s good at making promises and reneging on them.  Wouldn’t trust them on this if they paid me to.

I understand TS there's some separation in cricket but I mentioned WSC for another reason too because not only were they were able to find in their way a balance between tradition and new ideas, they were also able to attact a broader and younger audience which is something we must do if we want to maintain and grow a large supporter base. I would say our supporter base is older than most which isn't good for the long term sustainability of the Club. Maybe some of these "one-day supporters" in cricket were fly by nighters but alot them stuck and along with the technical advances, test cricket is now benefitting from their continued support.

Yes, but they did that with a separate competition all together.  Whereas the AFL is trying to be all things to all people in our main competition.  Wasn’t the pre season comp supposed to be about trialling new rules and having different jumpers and what not, to make it different to the main season?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying don’t try to attract new supporters, I’m saying don’t alienate the ones that are already there.  Which is what cricket would’ve done if they had tampered with test cricket.

The appeal of our game itself should be what attracts people to the AFL and the atmosphere at games.  But we have to skirt around the real issues and make it the fault of jumper clashes that stop people watching the game.

Even when the Club has its say we aren't listened to because our lack of success for 25 years and shabby finances has made us small fry. The bigger and wealthier clubs as well as the AFL can simply say no to us. Just as you don't receive respect on-field unless you are consistently successful, the same applies off-field.

What should we do then, just roll over and play dead?  You’re only beaten if you think you are, not if someone else thinks you are.

[WilliamPowell]

A very wise person once told me that there are 17 teams in this AFL competition we play in.


And despite what Eddie and others may want to believe the 17th team is the most powerful - always has been always will be.... the 17th team is the AFL

 

[PuntRdRoar]

as they say powelly "you cant beat city hall" lol

[mightytiges]

A very wise person once told me that there are 17 teams in this AFL competition we play in.

And despite what Eddie and others may want to believe the 17th team is the most powerful - always has been always will be.... the 17th team is the AFL

 

Nicely said WP. And the AFL is patient when it comes to paying back big time any club that thinks it's bigger than the comp and can do what it likes. 20 years in the case of Carlton and Elliot. If the AFL are consistent, Eddie and the Pies won't like the final decision on their clash strip.

[mightytiges]

[And that’s what gripes me about this.  Clubs are just expected to tow the line and not question anything. 

The old VFL clubs have only themselves to blame for this. Their greed and open chequebook stupidity during the 80's meant they were incapable of making decisions that were in the best interests of footy. Sheesh the RFC was incapable of making decisions that were in the best interests of the RFC let alone anyone else .

If that’s what people want to believe then fair enough.  But I’ve seen how things work in the AFL and, down the track, it won’t just be 1 or 2 weeks a year.  You can almost back it in, because the AFL’s good at making promises and reneging on them.  Wouldn’t trust them on this if they paid me to.

I'd reckon if the alternative guernsey proves popular then yes we'll wear it more than once or twice a year but it'll be the RFC board making that call.

What I find interesting is that no player I'm aware of has come out and strongly said no to the idea. Buckley towed the Pies line on the footy show but he was so unconvincing and had a broad grin on his face by the end that no one took what he said seriously.

Yes, but they did that with a separate competition all together.  Whereas the AFL is trying to be all things to all people in our main competition.  Wasn’t the pre season comp supposed to be about trialling new rules and having different jumpers and what not, to make it different to the main season?

Whatever happens the clash strip does need to be trialled somewhere other than a real game first. In fact as it'll be us members who will decide the final one chosen, the club should make-up some proto-types of the choices we will be given as 2-D computer generated images can be quite different to the real thing. Hopefully we learnt that lesson from the numbers stuff-up of last year.

Even when the Club has its say we aren't listened to because our lack of success for 25 years and shabby finances has made us small fry. The bigger and wealthier clubs as well as the AFL can simply say no to us. Just as you don't receive respect on-field unless you are consistently successful, the same applies off-field.

What should we do then, just roll over and play dead?  You’re only beaten if you think you are, not if someone else thinks you are.

No the whole club from the president down to the bootstudder works its guts out to put itself in a position whereby it is listened to. It may take a few years but we as a club now at least have some purpose and direction. The sad reality is money talks. For a club like Richmond, only with consistent on-field success will we generate the bums on seats, membership and tv viewers that will make the AFL and others stand up and take notice.

[mightytiges]

The Blues are the first of the traditional clubs to unveil their clash strip and they played it safe. It's not a shocker but it's dull. I hope we are slightly more creative with our one(s).

[Tiger Spirit]

The old VFL clubs have only themselves to blame for this. Their greed and open chequebook stupidity during the 80's meant they were incapable of making decisions that were in the best interests of footy. Sheesh the RFC was incapable of making decisions that were in the best interests of the RFC let alone anyone else .

I’m sure if some of the club Presidents, at the time knew how much they were signing over and the monster they were going to create, they would have thought twice about some things.

Anyway, the reality is that it did happen and now Clubs have to deal with the way things are, rather than how some of us would like them to be.

All I’m saying is that if Clubs don’t look after their own interests then the AFL isn’t going to do it for them.  Doesn’t inspire any confidence in me, to gradually watch as some of them become sanitised and lose their character, purely because the AFL holds the reigns and its every move is driven by money.

Growing the game is one thing; taking much of the emotion, personality and soul out of it is another.

[Mr Magic]

Yuck. Hate the Blues new jumper.

Could it be any more boring? Talk about playing it safe.

[one-eyed]

From the AFL: clash jumpers
10:15:30 AM Mon 24 April, 2006
Australian Football League

The AFL guidelines on an alternative clash guernsey for away games has been designed so the AFL can present matches in the best possible way.

The AFL seeks to provide a clear visual difference between the playing uniforms of AFL clubs for the benefits of:

- Supporters at the game.

- Supporters watching on television.

- TV broadcasters describing the game to an average of 4 million people per week.

- Radio broadcasters describing the game to more than 1 million people each week during the season.

- Players – 88% of players in a 2002 AFLPA survey supported the use of alternative jumpers when club colors clash and these figures have remained consistent in recent years.

The AFL has informed clubs that the final design of an alternate guernseys, which are to be used only in the event of a clash when the side is the away team, need to be completed by May 31, to be ready for the following season.

The key consideration for the AFL before any design is approved is whether the guernsey design provides a clear visual difference to the uniforms of other clubs for people at the game and watching at home on television.

http://afl.com.au/default.asp?pg=news&spg=display&articleid=260020