Author Topic: Federal Election  (Read 41724 times)

Offline the_boy_jake

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Re: Federal Election - Nov 24
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2010, 11:36:14 PM »
Yep it's an amazing fall especially in Australia politics. Political suicide for mine whoever wins the leadership tomorrow. As you say Jake I think the public won't like backstabbing although it's the norm in politics and both sides do it.

Only in opposition MT. Why do we now start ditching PMs based on opinion polls.

Quote
Rudd made the mistake of fighting too many battles at once and making too many enemies. Mind you if he spoke like he did tonight for most of the past year he wouldn't be in trouble in the first place. Incredible that the ETS has killed off leaders of both parties. The Liberal one for supporting it and the Labor one for putting it on the backburner.

Agreed it was a good speech.

The ETS was an issue of almost unprecedented complexity in Australian politics. This all started rolling with the Libs knifing Turnbull. That meant any coalition support for the ETS went out the window. In the meantime, the Greens played the role of environmental terrorist with a 'tax or nothing' stance when if they fell in behind Labor they might have got Turnbull and MacFarlane on board. So the Greens are quite unreasonable and should never be treated as a serious political party with Brown as leader. Then you have all the international politics and Australia just doesn't hold any sway.

Still I don't think ETS is a big issue because 95% of Greens votes would eventually come back to Labor.

It is really the mining tax. The problem from a PR point of view is that from the outside it just looks like big government. And as a frontier country, we have a natural disposition to the sort or conservative, 'private enterprise' mindset that opposes this. On top of this, our capitalist egalitarianism, for all its virtues, helps breed a society where everything comes second to personal wealth. That is to say we have few institutional means of defining what a good, well-lived life really is other than to be wealthy. We don't have the great scientific institutions to harness the best minds, we don't have the great literary, journalistic or artistic traditions of other nations, nor do we have a great reputation for philanthropy. All we are left with is that very middle class desire to accumulate more wealth than the next (or to retire before your mates - see WAT). We are just fortunate that we are sitting on a bunch of resources.

So Rudd could have given the mining tax a real purpose by saying that it was going to real targets. To raise the numeracy and literacy standards to top of class, to fund research into renewable energies, to solve the homeless problem etc etc

Nonetheless, the mining tax would have funded the social infrastructure and in my travels I have to say the places that are most welcoming and where people are most happy (and this is backed by research) are those with a strong social democracy (Denmark, Sweden, Finland etc). So the real question re. the mining tax and other forms of taxation is what is more important? Personal wealth or personal happiness?

Anyway I hope Rudd hangs on because it isn't right that a serious democracy ditches its PM halfway through his first term.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Federal Election - Nov 24
« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2010, 05:43:42 AM »
Only in opposition MT. Why do we now start ditching PMs based on opinion polls.
Internal ALP polling especially in marginal seats was/is pretty bad apparently. I wonder also if Labor powerbrokers remember their political history and are spooked by what happened to Chifley with the banks. Notice the opponents to the mining tax were quick to jump on the "Nationalisation of the mining industry" slogan. Some similarities there although there's no cold war for the Libs now to play the reds under the beds line.


The ETS was an issue of almost unprecedented complexity in Australian politics. This all started rolling with the Libs knifing Turnbull. That meant any coalition support for the ETS went out the window. In the meantime, the Greens played the role of environmental terrorist with a 'tax or nothing' stance when if they fell in behind Labor they might have got Turnbull and MacFarlane on board. So the Greens are quite unreasonable and should never be treated as a serious political party with Brown as leader. Then you have all the international politics and Australia just doesn't hold any sway.

Still I don't think ETS is a big issue because 95% of Greens votes would eventually come back to Labor.

It is really the mining tax. The problem from a PR point of view is that from the outside it just looks like big government. And as a frontier country, we have a natural disposition to the sort or conservative, 'private enterprise' mindset that opposes this. On top of this, our capitalist egalitarianism, for all its virtues, helps breed a society where everything comes second to personal wealth. That is to say we have few institutional means of defining what a good, well-lived life really is other than to be wealthy. We don't have the great scientific institutions to harness the best minds, we don't have the great literary, journalistic or artistic traditions of other nations, nor do we have a great reputation for philanthropy. All we are left with is that very middle class desire to accumulate more wealth than the next (or to retire before your mates - see WAT). We are just fortunate that we are sitting on a bunch of resources.

So Rudd could have given the mining tax a real purpose by saying that it was going to real targets. To raise the numeracy and literacy standards to top of class, to fund research into renewable energies, to solve the homeless problem etc etc

Nonetheless, the mining tax would have funded the social infrastructure and in my travels I have to say the places that are most welcoming and where people are most happy (and this is backed by research) are those with a strong social democracy (Denmark, Sweden, Finland etc). So the real question re. the mining tax and other forms of taxation is what is more important? Personal wealth or personal happiness?

Anyway I hope Rudd hangs on because it isn't right that a serious democracy ditches its PM halfway through his first term.
The ETS backdown meant Rudd couldn't afford another backdown in the public's eyes and so he's stuck fast to the mining tax proposal without modification. The budget being back in surplus in 3 years depends on it too. I agree he's poorly sold the RSPT or at least left it too late and he needed more concrete examples of where the money from the tax will be going so the public could relate more to the benefits. 
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Online one-eyed

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2010, 05:29:35 AM »
2010 Federal Election has been set for August 21.

5 weeks of being bombarded by political ads and pollies kissing babies at shopping centres :P.

Offline the_boy_jake

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2010, 10:25:02 AM »
Really not much of a choice this time around

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2010, 09:33:08 PM »
Really not much of a choice this time around

Actually that's quite funny Jake because it's exactly what we've talking about in our household.

Not much of choice on one hand but a clear and simple choice on the other

I not a fan of either one of them as leaders but when I compare one against the other the choice for me at least becomes a very easy 
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Offline tiger101

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2010, 11:05:26 PM »
not sure about you guys but its been two days since this election has started officially and im over the "Moving Forward" slogan by Gillard.

Offline the_boy_jake

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2010, 11:09:23 PM »
Well I am a Labor voter normally, but these are the main points for me

* Gillard has moved Labor to the right already with the resources tax and the asylum seekers policy. It seems that there is little between them on major policy really. If you have a choice between two centre-right parties then maybe the best one is the one that actually believes in core conservative principles and not the one making a desperate shift for votes. Fact is with Kev I think there was a clear distinction that he was going to be different (more compassionate) from Howard on immigration, work choices, the apology etc There really is no social democratic option this time around.
* If you vote for Gillard's Labor, is she going to get more than 2-3 years in the job or will the machine take care of her too?

At this stage I will vote libs for the first time, just because I think Labor needs a bit of tough love from its own. Abbott hasn't been all that impressive and some of his shadow ministers are dead set scary (e.g. Cory Bernardi) but like I said you can't have government run by opinion polls like the current Labor factions do.

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2010, 07:29:05 AM »
not sure about you guys but its been two days since this election has started officially and im over the "Moving Forward" slogan by Gillard.


Ditto with Tony's "Action Plan" :rollin

At this stage I will vote libs for the first time, just because I think Labor needs a bit of tough love from its own.

I think that's the view of a number of people Jake but I think it is a very scary way to consider voting. History has shown that when people think like that and subsequently vote like that parties get voted out, we have a change and then within 12 months the same people are saying "why did I do that".

It is what happened here in Victoria with Kennett and to a degree with Howard. After Kennett got turfed the Liberals here imploded and have never recovered; moreso from a dearth of quality leaders. The Federal Lbierals are to an extent in the same boat, they've been "Rudd-erless" (pardon the terrible pun) since the last election but have been to a degree granted a lifeline not by their own making but by the soap opera that's been the federal Labor Party in recent times

Personally I idea of Abbott leading this country is to scary for words for me, his views on certain social issues is archaic to say the least and with that in mind I don't want him leadingt his country

As I said yesterday the choices on offer aren't great but when I stop and consider it becomes a very clear & simple choice for me
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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2010, 10:47:32 AM »
Vote 1 - Tone

Stop the Waste
Payback the Debt
Stop the Boats

thats a slogan not that moving forward poo.

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2010, 12:06:37 PM »
Vote 1 - Tone

Stop the Waste
Payback the Debt
Stop the Boats

thats a slogan not that moving forward poo.

No no that's an action plan Ramps  ;D

And there's only one important missing ingredient in it Ramps and that's the HOW

How is he going to stop the boats? Payback the debt and stop the waste

It's all about HOW for me

Actuall I'd like to know how any of them are going to stop the boats and please don't say just turn 'em around

And BTW poor old Tony's done a backflip this morning on 3AW about workchoices - he says he's cremated them and they wont be back but then siad he couldn't guarantee in the future that parts of it wouldn't come back  :rollin

He's off to a fine start

At least The Flaming Red Head has headed into softer pastures to campaign today in Townsville

It's going to be a bumper 5 weeks of nothingness  :rollin
"Oh yes I am a dreamer, I still see us flying high!"

from the song "Don't Walk Away" by Pat Benatar 1988 (Wide Awake In Dreamland)

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2010, 02:19:57 AM »
I always thought Andrew Peacock's "It's not right is it?" was the most lame and annoying slogan of all time but I think both parties have even trumped him this election. You can tell both parties have got some advertising firm to come up with the cliched slogans. 5 more weeks of having to listen to them too :chuck.

The only thing positive about this election is Fielding now has no chance of keeping his senate seat. One less loopy independent holding the balance of power and exploiting it.

It's all about HOW for me

Actuall I'd like to know how any of them are going to stop the boats and please don't say just turn 'em around
Same here WP. There's no HOW in anything Abbott says. It's all I've got this great big magic wand to solve every problem.

Actually I laugh at anyone who is actually stupid enough to believe any leader can turn the boats around.  Both parties are just pandering to the redneck losers of society who need a scapegoat to blame for their own miserable existence. Yep what a real problem boat people are given they make up just 1-2% of our total immigration intake per annum. So much for our borders being unprotected and being "swamped by Asians"  :sleep. The only way you truly can stop the boats is to give these boat people a reason not to leave their homeland in the first place. Given most countries around the world are TPLCs (as Sir Humphrey Appleby would describe them lol) where corruption, political instability and war is rife, that ain't going to happen in our lifetime. We've had boat people arriving on our shores at least since the 1970s. The more things change the more they remain the same.

As for reducing government waste - if any leader really wanted to save taxpayers money he or she would abolish all middle-class welfare in an instant. But they'll never have the guts to do it because the middle-class welfare targets the mortgage belts and marginal electorates that win elections. It would be political suicide.
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Offline the_boy_jake

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2010, 10:04:26 PM »
What I don't understand about the 'boat people' thing is why it cannot be turned into a positive for Australia

We need to develop regional centres. Why can't asylum seekers be issued with a work visa that restricts them to working in particular jobs in particular areas that need to be developed. If you come here to work as a skilled migrant you might be restricted to work for a single company so it is not so unfair on reflection. I don't buy the whole argument 'you can't put these people in regional areas there is no support for them there' remember they are coming from persecution so anything is better than where they have been.

Asylum seekers would receive:

* Training in a particular vocation at a cost which they pay back at low interest much like HECS/HELP/whatever it is called these days.
* Training in language and adapting to Australian life. They would be provided with whatever cultural/religious/counselling needs they might require.

After a few years they can move on with skills that make them employable. The scheme would be open to job seekers too.

Obviously you would have to be sure that there is not exploitation of workers and it doesn't become a pseudo slave trade, but I cannot see why this scheme can't get off the ground. The only people who would reject it are the hardline Christian islamophobes.

Offline tiger101

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2010, 12:41:26 AM »


As for reducing government waste - if any leader really wanted to save taxpayers money he or she would abolish all middle-class welfare in an instant. But they'll never have the guts to do it because the middle-class welfare targets the mortgage belts and marginal electorates that win elections. It would be political suicide.
that is the most wildest thing i have heard whipe out middle-class welfare.
 :o

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2010, 04:37:29 AM »
What I don't understand about the 'boat people' thing is why it cannot be turned into a positive for Australia

We need to develop regional centres. Why can't asylum seekers be issued with a work visa that restricts them to working in particular jobs in particular areas that need to be developed. If you come here to work as a skilled migrant you might be restricted to work for a single company so it is not so unfair on reflection. I don't buy the whole argument 'you can't put these people in regional areas there is no support for them there' remember they are coming from persecution so anything is better than where they have been.

Asylum seekers would receive:

* Training in a particular vocation at a cost which they pay back at low interest much like HECS/HELP/whatever it is called these days.
* Training in language and adapting to Australian life. They would be provided with whatever cultural/religious/counselling needs they might require.

After a few years they can move on with skills that make them employable. The scheme would be open to job seekers too.

Obviously you would have to be sure that there is not exploitation of workers and it doesn't become a pseudo slave trade, but I cannot see why this scheme can't get off the ground. The only people who would reject it are the hardline Christian islamophobes.
Well there's that Victorian country town whose shire council has put its hand up to be considered a regional immigration centre because the town is dying from a falling population. So obviously some country towns and regions would be interested in your idea Jake. I'd doubt the government and opposition would though as I believe that both parties want an offshore facility so they can wipe their hands of any responsibility for asylum seekers and make out they look tough on border protection. Perception often rules in politics  :P.
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2010, 04:54:30 AM »


As for reducing government waste - if any leader really wanted to save taxpayers money he or she would abolish all middle-class welfare in an instant. But they'll never have the guts to do it because the middle-class welfare targets the mortgage belts and marginal electorates that win elections. It would be political suicide.
that is the most wildest thing i have heard whipe out middle-class welfare.
 :o
It's not that wild a conception. I'd rather see our money spent on bringing our ageing infrastructure into the 21st century which will add economic benefit for years to come rather than on baby bonuses and alike. Although I think the Greens are loopy lefties I do agree with their idea of a VFT between Melbourne and Sydney to take the load off one of the busiest air corridors in the world. We're about to become the only habitated continent without very fast rail which is embarrassing although not surprising. In Australia our pollies and bureaucrats think reaching a maximum speed of 160km/hr for a few km on a regional line is very fast for a train ::). Our State governments of both persuasions produce report after report to improve our metro transport systems decade after decade but nothing ever gets done as they need Federal Government money to fund it which never comes through. 

The wildest thing in this election btw is the debate being moved forward an hour so the public can watch Masterchef  :lol. Good to see how much our modern day pollies capture the imagination of the Aussie public  :wallywink :rollin.
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