9th...NO WAY

[WilliamPowell]

We win as many games as the team possibly can. We win the close ones and we learn from the losses. If that means 9th then so be it.

(IMHO)

Best opinion so far O.   

Hey it's what I've been trying to say 

You need to take my approach, sit back, see what happens & just enjoy life

  

[Smokey]

We win as many games as the team possibly can. We win the close ones and we learn from the losses. If that means 9th then so be it.

(IMHO)

Best opinion so far O and WP.  

Hey it's what I've been trying to say  

You need to take my approach, sit back, see what happens & just enjoy life

 

Ok then, edited for accuracy!  

[WilliamPowell]

Ok then, edited for accuracy!  

   Argghhhhhhhh thanks smokey 

[WA Tiger]

I am still a bit confused by some peoples comments regarding draft picks. Most of the people making comments about finishing 9th being ok and draft picks not being relevant are the same people that would rather have had their legs cut off last year than trade away draft picks that will be of the same value if we finish 9th this year.

To those people I have to ask, from the draft period last year to now,you really believe we have progressed so much regarding our draft picks that the draft pick/s won't matter against the players we could get if we finished lower than 9th??? Taking into account all round picks.

Yes enjoy the wins and where we are NOW, but remember the future too.

[Judge Roughneck]

It does not matter mate.

Not much point tanking. We should have the core of our list build between 04-11. Anything else now is also the cherry on top.

Look forward to using the tambling pick, Our international rookies and whatever draft picks we get but really, if we don't have the majority in place now we are in trouble.

Finishing ninth would be a shocker to be honest and hurt us in the long run. We'd be lucky to get two picks in the top 50 with GWS hogging the draft and our first pick would be in the late teens. Our list is nowhere complete yet structurally (Jack is the only reliable KPP along our spine) to start pushing up the ladder (as much as watching us win is enjoyable right now). We really need another decent dip in the draft as we did last year to add more class to our list and fill holes/deficiencies we still have so in time when we do push into the top 8 we can match it with the top sides if not better them and push for top 4 if not top 2 in say 3 years time when our list matures. At the start of the year I was hoping for say a 14th finish (= about 8 wins) and another top 10 first pick; not ninth and pick 18  .

1. GWS
2. GWS
3. GWS
4. Bris
5. GWS
6. Port
7. GWS
8. North
9. GWS
10. St K
11. GWS
12. GC
13. GWS
14. Adel
15. GWS
16. WB
17. Eagles
18. Richmond
...
26. Coll
27. Bris (Compensation pick from last year)
28. Bris (Priority pick)
29. Port (Priority pick?)

* Chuck in here a whole bunch of picks created out of thin air by GWS ontrading non-AFL players other clubs want as GC did last year.

GWS
Bris
Port
North
St K
GC
Adel
WB
Eagles
Richmond ...... most likely a pick in the 40s.

[Judge Roughneck]

if we came 14th we
get pick #3 then there would be merit in tanking but do to gws we should just Mae due with 16 or 25 or whatever the case may be.

I am still a bit confused by some peoples comments regarding draft picks. Most of the people making comments about finishing 9th being ok and draft picks not being relevant are the same people that would rather have had their legs cut off last year than trade away draft picks that will be of the same value if we finish 9th this year.

To those people I have to ask, from the draft period last year to now,you really believe we have progressed so much regarding our draft picks that the draft pick/s won't matter against the players we could get if we finished lower than 9th??? Taking into account all round picks.

Yes enjoy the wins and where we are NOW, but remember the future too.

[WA Tiger]

if we came 14th we
get pick #3 then there would be merit in tanking but do to gws we should just Mae due with 16 or 25 or whatever the case may be.

I am still a bit confused by some peoples comments regarding draft picks. Most of the people making comments about finishing 9th being ok and draft picks not being relevant are the same people that would rather have had their legs cut off last year than trade away draft picks that will be of the same value if we finish 9th this year.

To those people I have to ask, from the draft period last year to now,you really believe we have progressed so much regarding our draft picks that the draft pick/s won't matter against the players we could get if we finished lower than 9th??? Taking into account all round picks.

Yes enjoy the wins and where we are NOW, but remember the future too.

So there we go, if we finish 9th we don't play finals and we get pick 18, if we finish 14th we don't play finals and we get pick 3...I know where I would rather finish.

If we finish 8th we play finals and they take the experience of a final and the confidence into next year. Finish 9th and greater expectations will be on the team to make the 8 with that comes greater pressure.

If we dont play finals I know where I wan't to finish..

[Infamy]

But we won't get Pick 3 for finishing 14th, we'd get Pick 10

[WA Tiger]

But we won't get Pick 3 for finishing 14th, we'd get Pick 10

Yeah good pick up Inf.. ..B.E what have you done to me..

Well still better than 18...

[Judge Roughneck]

But we won't get Pick 3 for finishing 14th, we'd get Pick 10

Yeah good pick up Inf.. ..B.E what have you done to me..

Well still better than 18...

in the past if we come 16th pick one / 15th pick two etc...

This time round due to the new clubs it doesn't make much difference. It's no worth t
tanking to upgrade our first pick from pick 16 to pick 10. IMO.

[Penelope]

I am still a bit confused by some peoples comments regarding draft picks. Most of the people making comments about finishing 9th being ok and draft picks not being relevant are the same people that would rather have had their legs cut off last year than trade away draft picks that will be of the same value if we finish 9th this year.

Actually, a fair argument.

Regarding 8th v 9th.
As i've already said, to me the only difference is the experience of playing in a final. The reaity is that sides that finish 8th generally make up the numbers, but it would be good to have a bit of interest in September for once.

It could also be argued that to just miss out would give this young team more incentive for the following year. They would have a belief that they are there abouts but the realisation they still need to improve.

Either way, i dont really care. To finish somewhere around 8-11 would be the result of continued improvement and to me that is the most important thing, rather than what number we actually finish on the ladder. There has not been one game since Dimma took over where the opposition has taken us lightly or underestimated us. There are no more cheap wins - each and every one is earned.

The upward curve is starting to take shape. somewhere along the line it may plateau, or even take a drop, but i also believe that somewhere along the line there will be a steep improvement that makes the other clubs really start to sit up and take notice.

whether that happens this year or next is anyone guess, but it seems that hardwick is expecting us to improve enough this year to actually start pushing the top sides.

surely if we start to push sides like collonwoood that can only be a good thing?

As others have said, and Benny said at the start of last year, lets just enjoy the ride.


Just another stir about Draft picks. Many people believe that reece conca would have lasted until late in the first round and some people even said that we could have traded down and still got him. ( Jackson didnt feel this way though).

To me, with the concessions available to wasted sydney it is not that important as generally the standouts are in the first 2-4 picks and after that it seems to even out and the order is mostly  determined by individual clubs' assessments and needs. It never has, nor will it ever, work out the order of draft picks relates to the order of how good the players turn out to be. The only argument with any merit i have seen put forward against this is that the earlier your pick the more likely you are to get your first choice.

The negatives associated with deliberately setting out to achieve this far outweigh the positives, but I'm sure by now most realise i feel this way  .

Normally if we finish near the bottom I simply take consolation in the earlier draft picks, but if that was to happen this year it would not be much consolation as it means the wheels have fallen off, for whatever reason.

[WA Tiger]

Yep fair enough Al, well summed up on all fronts.

[Judge Roughneck]

Fair point infamy.

People saying we lack ruck / kpp holes on the list

but you can only fit 2 ruckman at rfc and two a coburg
  Along with 2 or 3 talls in the forward ad backline.

Yes true WP and there is a reason I believe so strongly about not finishing 9th even though we are moving up the ladder. I actually believe our current team is one more draft away from securing better than average players through next years draft and trade period. I would hate to think that we are getting ahead of ourselves...yet again. While I love winning and really don't want to lose I would take the loses for the sake of one more draft and better picks. We really have no depth, we have no players coming through in the seconds, that have shown they will be anything. We have a week backline and I feel that with one more decent draft we could top up the positions where we are lacking depth.

Bingo! Although WAT I think we're outnumbered on this  . This is the last of years you want to finish 9th with only pick 18 on offer. That's effectively missing out on a normal first round pick  . Wait till next year and go for your life up the ladder as even 9th place would still get us a top 10 pick plus we'll have our end of first round compo pick available. As you said WAT overachieving this year would be getting ahead of ourselves and hurt us in becoming genuine premiership challengers in the upcoming years.

We've been very fortunate this year with few key injuries apart from Moore so our lack of depth hasn't been exposed against the low-to-middle of the road sides.
Our spine is only settled at FF with Jack. We are hoping Griffs and Astbury in time will fill two of them but nothing is certain yet and then we've got to find a big-body full back. The ruck possie is certain either.
Our side has too many smalls who will get pushed aside by bigger bodied opponents in finals footy if we think the current group as is is complete enough to move forward with.  Also we still lack class across all lines as our side falls away quickly after the top half-dozen or so players. The class is found earlier on in the draft. No coincidence our best players are high draft picks - Lids (1), Cotch (2), Martin (3) & Jack (13).

We may have won 3 in a row but we are still a long way away. Judging us by wins/losses is still misleading.

How long does it last for? I swear every year it's always "just one more year of good picks". Geelong & Collingwood certainly never stayed down to collect as many good picks as we did. Collingwood only tanked for one year, Geelong never did but got some father sons to help. In Deledio, Cotchin, Martin, Jack and even Vickery, we have far more top echelon juniors to build our side around, just in those 5 players we have almost 30% of the entire starting 18.

You say Lids, Cotchin, Martin & Jack are our best players, well Jack at 13 isn't too far away from the pick we will get this year. You have omitted Foley who was a rookie pick, even Nahas this year who if he keeps up his form was a rookie pick, look where we got players like Astbury & Bachelor who look like they will be 10 year players for us.

Get over the idea that we need more early picks, we have more than most teams ever have.

FB: Grimes Rance (Newman/Moore)
HB: Bachelor Astbury Houli
C: Deledio Martin Conca
HF: Edwards Griffiths Grigg
FF: (King) Riewoldt (Nahas)
Ru: Vickery Cotchin (Foley)

There is the 14 players I listed before with a few more senior players added in in brackets. We already have our side to develop, we just need more depth and natural turnover of the list. At this stage having all these kids play together and develop is the most important thing, not more draft picks. We may end up with players wanting to leave if we keep losing and also our players will have reduced trade value.

[mightytiges]

How long does it last for? I swear every year it's always "just one more year of good picks". Geelong & Collingwood certainly never stayed down to collect as many good picks as we did. Collingwood only tanked for one year, Geelong never did but got some father sons to help.

In Deledio, Cotchin, Martin, Jack and even Vickery, we have far more top echelon juniors to build our side around, just in those 5 players we have almost 30% of the entire starting 18.

You say Lids, Cotchin, Martin & Jack are our best players, well Jack at 13 isn't too far away from the pick we will get this year. You have omitted Foley who was a rookie pick, even Nahas this year who if he keeps up his form was a rookie pick, look where we got players like Astbury & Bachelor who look like they will be 10 year players for us.
 

Sorry Infamy, I forgot to reply to your question.

Geelong were down for Thompson's 2nd - 4th years (2001-2003) and that was coming off a poor 1999 the year before Thompson took over. Their rebuild began in the 1999 draft and that's after already having Harley, Scarlett and Milburn on their list (the bulk of their future defensive unit). Then they hit the jackpot again in the 2001 superdraft. Add a couple of gun father-sons and that group got them to the finals in 2004-5 (5-6 years after their rebuild started). Then they had a poor 2006 which got them Selwood at pick 7. So to a finals standard side they added another gun which turned them into superside. The Pies have undergone two rebuilds under Malthouse. The first starting in 1999 in the year before Mick arrived. 4 years later they were playing back-to-back GFs. So their next rebuild was built around the younger survivors of those GF losses. So they dipped down 2004-5 and even in 2006 they had a top 10 pick (two top 10 picks after trading Tarrant). Premiership sides are built in waves until you get the quality list with depth you need. Hawthorn was the same - rebuild began 1999-2002 and then they hit up again in 2004-5.

Okay based on this thread a majority of posters believe our list is structurally sound at the core and just needs tickering through natural evolution in the upcoming years and drafts (ie. irrespective of where we finish on the ladder we'll find what we need). For mine I disagree as I believe we still have significant crucial pieces missing and believe we still need to access as close to the top end of the draft to add more quality and class we still require. Our top 6 is classy but we fall away badly in quality after that. I would like us to have are bare minimum classy top 12. Having a handful at the top and then the rest team of deficient triers isn't enough to build a premiership team.

How long does needing good picks last for? Well IMO this year was the last given the compromised draft (I would've kept our wins in 2009-10 to 4 each as well to gain priority picks and accelerate our rebuild but that opportunity has gone). If we finish 9th-10th in 2012 then we would still get another top 10 pick so no big deal however this year finishing mid-ladder equates to pick 18. In a normal uncompromised draft this would be equivalent to not having a first round pick. We are in nowhere a position list-wise to miss out on first round picks. You can say pick 18 isn't far away from pick 13 but the reality is if we had pick 18 in 2006 instead of 13 we would've missed out on any of chance of gaining Jack. Sure there are still decent players available later in the draft but they are few and far between. Remember it's just not the first pick but the second, third, etc picks are much later as well. It's all about increasing your chances and access to as many of the best youngsters in the country.

Get over the idea that we need more early picks, we have more than most teams ever have.

FB: Grimes Rance (Newman/Moore)
HB: Bachelor Astbury Houli
C: Deledio Martin Conca
HF: Edwards Griffiths Grigg
FF: (King) Riewoldt (Nahas)
Ru: Vickery Cotchin (Foley)

There is the 14 players I listed before with a few more senior players added in in brackets. We already have our side to develop, we just need more depth and natural turnover of the list. At this stage having all these kids play together and develop is the most important thing, not more draft picks. We may end up with players wanting to leave if we keep losing and also our players will have reduced trade value.

For mine we still have far too many small players for their position (most who have skill deficiencies anyway) who need to be replaced. Rance isn't a full back for instance let alone a potential A-grade one (we don't have one our current list). Edwards is still a doubtful one for mine.  Structurally our side is still deficient in critical positions; not just lacking depth and maturity. Bookends still need major surgery - tall backs and quality ground level forwards need to be found from outside the current list. Fingers crossed Griffiths shoulders stand up to AFL footy btw. The midfield is still lacking another quality player or two for mine as well but yes that can be just a depth issue. Hopefully Ty does fill out and become the quality ruckman we need in time.

FB: Grimes*     ?       ?
HB: Bachelor Astbury* Houli
C: Deledio Martin Conca
HF:   ? Griffiths* Grigg
FF:   ?  Riewoldt    ?
Ru: Vickery Cotchin (Foley)
Int: ?   ?   ?   ?
 

[mightytiges]

It does not matter mate.

Not much point tanking. We should have the core of our list build between 04-11. Anything else now is also the cherry on top.

Look forward to using the tambling pick, Our international rookies and whatever draft picks we get but really, if we don't have the majority in place now we are in trouble.

Should have yes over those 7 years but we spent 04-08 flip-flopping between wanting to rebuild and wanting to play finals. Lids is the only quality player from the 04-05 drafts. We lacked picks in 07-08. We have only started rebuilding heavily and consistently since the 09 draft and even then we didn't smartly go for priority picks to accelerate our rebuild. We are not in trouble provided we don't do something stupid and finish mid-ladder this year but we still have a long way to go rebuilding our list as yesterday showed. The job is only half done. We are nowhere near the cherry on top stage. Collingwood adding Jolly and Ball to a top 4 side last year or Geelong adding Selwood and then Harry Taylor is the cherry on top stage.