9th...NO WAY

[mightytiges]

Bingo! Although WAT I think we're outnumbered on this  . This is the last of years you want to finish 9th with only pick 18 on offer. That's effectively missing out on a normal first round pick  . Wait till next year and go for your life up the ladder as even 9th place would still get us a top 10 pick plus we'll have our end of first round compo pick available. As you said WAT overachieving this year would be getting ahead of ourselves and hurt us in becoming genuine premiership challengers in the upcoming years.

Who said it would be over achieving? Can't it just be solid improvement?

And why this fixation with finishing 9th, what happens if we finish 10th, 11th is that OK? Which would be the best ladder position to end up at?

Are you suggestion that we should be aiming "higher" in how low we finish; say 13th or lower would - that would snag us a top 15 pick wouldn't it? Is that what we should be after?

You need to take my approach, sit back, see what happens & just enjoy life

We may have won 3 in a row but we are still a long way away. Judging us by wins/losses is still misleading.

Absolutely, we still have a long way to go. That's why people speaking (perhaps even thinking) finals is frought with danger. 

But we shouldn't down play the positives: it seems we are on our way and we need to keep going and keep aiming to improve.

Sure WP there are plenty positives to talk about. We're a young side coming from a long way back so even in losing there are positives to talk about.

I'm just arguing that the current draft system will penalise a side like ours that is playing to its maximum potential yet that maximum will at best get us to 9th-11th spot. It's not as though we have a stack of injuries or are like a Geelong 2006 underperforming so next year with a full list playing at its best we kick on again higher up the ladder. Our list doesn't yet have the depth of talent outside the senior side to push through and lift us up the ladder by its own. That's what I meant by overachieving if we finish 9th. There's little scope for significant improvement the following year outside the existing list if we don't have another early-ish dip into another draft at least. Ending up with only say pick 18 as our first pick and then our 2nd pick in the 40s and 3rd pick in the 60s will stall our progress. We've been there before. It's not fair but with the current draft system if you're not going for top 4 and seriously challenge you might as well finish bottom 4 and use the system to your club's advantage. Seeing more and more elite young talent running around in a Richmond jumper makes footy life more enjoyable  . I want more! 

And Mighty Tigers, you're a bit like someone standing on the edge of a swimming pool trying to lower yourself into the water one toe at a time. Just take the plunge.

With the draft system the way it is, that pool has a sesspit around the middle section of it. From past experience you avoid going anywhere near the middle otherwise you end up in the proverbial . North took the plunge into 9th last year and it's really paid off for them this year .

[RollsRoyce]

Mighty Tigers, it's almost as if you were waiting for yesterday's result to say,
" I told you so". FWIW, I think the ONLY glaring holes on our list are our rucks and our key defensive stocks. Pretty big holes I admit. But they don't have to be filled with top end draft picks. Collingwood fixed their ruck problems by taking Jolly with which pick??? A decent CHB can be found with a mid range pick. We just have to scour the land for a taller, stronger smarter option than McGuane. You could throw a dart into a crowd and hit one of those. We have our fair share of high draft picks.It's time to start making our move, not lingering around the bottom of the ladder like biafrans at a banquet. 

[Judge Roughneck]

First and foremost

nahas tripod is very stiff to be left out if your blueprint of thr future side.

Going at 25+ touches and found goals

How long does it last for? I swear every year it's always "just one more year of good picks". Geelong & Collingwood certainly never stayed down to collect as many good picks as we did. Collingwood only tanked for one year, Geelong never did but got some father sons to help.

In Deledio, Cotchin, Martin, Jack and even Vickery, we have far more top echelon juniors to build our side around, just in those 5 players we have almost 30% of the entire starting 18.

You say Lids, Cotchin, Martin & Jack are our best players, well Jack at 13 isn't too far away from the pick we will get this year. You have omitted Foley who was a rookie pick, even Nahas this year who if he keeps up his form was a rookie pick, look where we got players like Astbury & Bachelor who look like they will be 10 year players for us.
 

Sorry Infamy, I forgot to reply to your question.

Geelong were down for Thompson's 2nd - 4th years (2001-2003) and that was coming off a poor 1999 the year before Thompson took over. Their rebuild began in the 1999 draft and that's after already having Harley, Scarlett and Milburn on their list (the bulk of their future defensive unit). Then they hit the jackpot again in the 2001 superdraft. Add a couple of gun father-sons and that group got them to the finals in 2004-5 (5-6 years after their rebuild started). Then they had a poor 2006 which got them Selwood at pick 7. So to a finals standard side they added another gun which turned them into superside. The Pies have undergone two rebuilds under Malthouse. The first starting in 1999 in the year before Mick arrived. 4 years later they were playing back-to-back GFs. So their next rebuild was built around the younger survivors of those GF losses. So they dipped down 2004-5 and even in 2006 they had a top 10 pick (two top 10 picks after trading Tarrant). Premiership sides are built in waves until you get the quality list with depth you need. Hawthorn was the same - rebuild began 1999-2002 and then they hit up again in 2004-5.

Okay based on this thread a majority of posters believe our list is structurally sound at the core and just needs tickering through natural evolution in the upcoming years and drafts (ie. irrespective of where we finish on the ladder we'll find what we need). For mine I disagree as I believe we still have significant crucial pieces missing and believe we still need to access as close to the top end of the draft to add more quality and class we still require. Our top 6 is classy but we fall away badly in quality after that. I would like us to have are bare minimum classy top 12. Having a handful at the top and then the rest team of deficient triers isn't enough to build a premiership team.

How long does needing good picks last for? Well IMO this year was the last given the compromised draft (I would've kept our wins in 2009-10 to 4 each as well to gain priority picks and accelerate our rebuild but that opportunity has gone). If we finish 9th-10th in 2012 then we would still get another top 10 pick so no big deal however this year finishing mid-ladder equates to pick 18. In a normal uncompromised draft this would be equivalent to not having a first round pick. We are in nowhere a position list-wise to miss out on first round picks. You can say pick 18 isn't far away from pick 13 but the reality is if we had pick 18 in 2006 instead of 13 we would've missed out on any of chance of gaining Jack. Sure there are still decent players available later in the draft but they are few and far between. Remember it's just not the first pick but the second, third, etc picks are much later as well. It's all about increasing your chances and access to as many of the best youngsters in the country.

Get over the idea that we need more early picks, we have more than most teams ever have.

FB: Grimes Rance (Newman/Moore)
HB: Bachelor Astbury Houli
C: Deledio Martin Conca
HF: Edwards Griffiths Grigg
FF: (King) Riewoldt (Nahas)
Ru: Vickery Cotchin (Foley)

There is the 14 players I listed before with a few more senior players added in in brackets. We already have our side to develop, we just need more depth and natural turnover of the list. At this stage having all these kids play together and develop is the most important thing, not more draft picks. We may end up with players wanting to leave if we keep losing and also our players will have reduced trade value.

For mine we still have far too many small players for their position (most who have skill deficiencies anyway) who need to be replaced. Rance isn't a full back for instance let alone a potential A-grade one (we don't have one our current list). Edwards is still a doubtful one for mine.  Structurally our side is still deficient in critical positions; not just lacking depth and maturity. Bookends still need major surgery - tall backs and quality ground level forwards need to be found from outside the current list. Fingers crossed Griffiths shoulders stand up to AFL footy btw. The midfield is still lacking another quality player or two for mine as well but yes that can be just a depth issue. Hopefully Ty does fill out and become the quality ruckman we need in time.

FB: Grimes*     ?       ?
HB: Bachelor Astbury* Houli
C: Deledio Martin Conca
HF:   ? Griffiths* Grigg
FF:   ?  Riewoldt    ?
Ru: Vickery Cotchin (Foley)
Int: ?   ?   ?   ?
 

[WA Tiger]

After this rubbish against Port I would rather finish last, we are clearly not there and we need the best draft picks we can get.

[julzqld]

Ninth is better than what we've been finishing the last couple of years

[WA Tiger]

Ninth is better than what we've been finishing the last couple of years

Not if we continue to dish this crap up.

[Go Richo 12]

Ninth is better than what we've been finishing the last couple of years

Not if we continue to dish this crap up.

Guess what? We'll still be ninth!

[mightytiges]

Mighty Tigers, it's almost as if you were waiting for yesterday's result to say,
" I told you so". FWIW, I think the ONLY glaring holes on our list are our rucks and our key defensive stocks. Pretty big holes I admit. But they don't have to be filled with top end draft picks. Collingwood fixed their ruck problems by taking Jolly with which pick??? A decent CHB can be found with a mid range pick. We just have to scour the land for a taller, stronger smarter option than McGuane. You could throw a dart into a crowd and hit one of those. We have our fair share of high draft picks.It's time to start making our move, not lingering around the bottom of the ladder like biafrans at a banquet. 

It wasn't meant to be a told you so post RR. Just a post about where we really are. Up one week and down the next and still with too many players whose skills aren't up to it and a side with still too many holes that needs additional class added. Finishing mid-ladder would/will disadvantage us. That's just the way the stupid draft system works. It penalises sides like ours if we finish outside the bottom 5 which is what we really are at. We got a touch ahead of ourselves.

[RollsRoyce]

And I still reckon we would have won easily tonight if the game had been at the G or Emptyhead stadium which it should have been seeing how it was a HOME GAME and all.
The other thing we should have done of course was kept Post in the backline to cover Grimes' loss, booted that spud McGuane out of the team for good and replaced him with Gourdis or Astbury.
In short, nobody's getting ahead of anything. Come on MT,you saw the Burgers on TV today. There are better options already on our list, if we would just stop persisting with proven hacks.

[Hellenic Tiger]

Regardless we will not finish 9th this year and that opinion of mine is not based on tonights result.
I still think we will win no more than 10 games and no less than 8.
Anything less would be a disappointment anything more will be a tick in terms of development.
We are too inconsistent. If we drop a game like this next year then we have every right to be filthy on the coach and the players and start asking questions. 6 weeks ago after the Collingwood game most optimists would have had us at 4-5-1 with little chance of playing finals. Nothing has changed in 6 weeks except we have been on an exciting ride that derailed tonight. Keep the faith boys I've had a few hours to calm down. Next year is the drought breaking finals year.10th or 11th is where we sit this year.

[mightytiges]

And I still reckon we would have won easily tonight if the game had been at the G or Emptyhead stadium which it should have been seeing how it was a HOME GAME and all.
The other thing we should have done of course was kept Post in the backline to cover Grimes' loss, booted that spud McGuane out of the team for good and replaced him with Gourdis or Astbury.
In short, nobody's getting ahead of anything. Come on MT,you saw the Burgers on TV today. There are better options already on our list, if we would just stop persisting with proven hacks.

I still believe our backline stocks are weak and uncertain. Goo isn't up to it and Grimes is out for 3 months with a bad hammy which is concerning. Astbury may become one of the answers to our key defensive posts but right now he isn't ready. He's more suited to a 3rd tall role. I'm not a fan of McGaune as a long-term solution but we are thin on the ground. Post is another option to come in but he seems to be playing more forward of the ball at Coburg and only being pushed back if the Burgers are under seige.

If we want to replace a proven spud then Miller should go.

[WA Tiger]

Bring on 11th - 14th for mine, then start again next year...If people think we are going places this year and setting up the foundations for the future....Forget it, we are still 1 more draft away from our future......

WAKE UP people, we  think we are better than we are!!!!!!!

[2JD]

 

[tiger101]

Bring on 11th - 14th for mine, then start again next year...If people think we are going places this year and setting up the foundations for the future....Forget it, we are still 1 more draft away from our future......

WAKE UP people, we  think we are better than we are!!!!!!!

Thats abit harsh. I think we are starting to set up a foundation for long term success. We have a game plan coming together. Alot of players getting opportunity and games under there belts. But I agree we need to keep delisting and drafting.
 

[FNM]

Ninth is better than what we've been finishing the last couple of years

Ninth is garbage