Author Topic: Where are our holes now!  (Read 11165 times)

Offline Penelope

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2012, 08:20:56 PM »
so lets get this straight, when you said geelong saw quality to go with quality, that's not really what you meant?

Do you really think that if we had recruited pods in 2009 he would have had the same impact at richmond as he did at geelong, even though there is no way in hell you could argue we would have been recruiting quality to go with quality?

I'm not sure how you can be talking about a vfl player and then talk about "any proven AFL player" as if they are the same thing?
yes because hes a damn good player. he dominated in the vfl didnt he.he walked straight into geelongs team and performed didnt he. he would have given us more thaqn post griffiths vickery in the short term.but your right perhaps pods was a bad example of a proven afl player. but the main point was pods was 29 when taken his age was not a barrier to a side who had most of its list in the 25 plus age bracket.
its a simple criteria and i thought it was pretty easy to follow how we get bogged down in these discussions is beyond me.
1/ the older player you are taking is proven and can do a job for you. i have no doubt pods if taken would have done a job for us. he was a proven vfl player in fact one of the best in that comp for yrs.
2/ you are not taking that player and foregoing your future quality 10 yr players to get him, ie giving up 1st and 2nd rnd picks for a mature player.
3/ ask yourself does your list lack experience and will the player help alleviate this probnlem ie a player like pods would be invaluable even at age 29 if jack went down. a simple spread sheet will tell you where you lack and how much depth you have in each area.
4/ always remember an older player based on age alone cannot harm your list as long as you look after the youth side of it first and the player in question can play.

you are arguing over one point that pods was not afl quality fair enough but that is not what the post is about. tell me what do you disagree with in those 4 points. tell me my you think taking a mature player or two  who fit within those 4 points will hurt us.

forget pods all you are doing is detract from the main points im trying to make.i dont want to get caught up on how clubs or us rate players your dud may be my good player.thing is pods was a top notch vfl player and had been for yrs. a club like geelong full of ageing players saw fit to take an experienced mature player at age 29. we and all other clubs ignored him because he was too old apparently. well i hope at richmond we have lernt something from that.

maybe you disagree that we have very few in the 25 plus age brackets. maybe you disagree we have few 100 gamers. you probably disagree with the very point that getting a proven mature player  who will cost little like merrett ie thru free agency is not  going to harm us. if you dont disagree a cant see the point of your post.
i ask how can taking a good player be harmful to our list or any list if you have few experienced players and you are not paying much for them. the age is not important as long as we are not getting a dud and selling the future away. the state of the list says we can do with a few more seniors who can play.

at 29  straight out of the vfl pods would have filled a role but  pods is probably one who should be left for the why dont we take more mature players out of state leagues debate. pods fit a lot of good criteria to get drafted and it was a disgrace by all clubs that he had to wait so long to get a chance.

 just as an example merrett would fill a need and offer something we have no depth in. his  age should not be a barrier to us taking him, its not as if we are overflowing with older players and older players who are any good.
the only way taking a 25 - 28+ yo can hurt us is if we give up 1st and 2nd rounders to get them or they are high risk underperformers.
perhaps the reason you end up in debates about points that are not your point, is because in making your point you raise a plethora of points?

Yes Podsiadly was a bad example to use.
what 4 points too many to comprehend. no answer to the gist of whats being said. but ya know what i didnt expect an answer . those who open their moths for the sake of it usually dont.
cmon tell me why we should not be taking mature players and what harm they can do to us with the 4/ points i made in mind. substance mate it goes a long way.why are you against mature players.
Craw, last time you threw down such  a challenge to me and i bothered to take the time to respond, you didnt, or couldnt, take the time to respond directly back. all you did was make a snide comment in a different thread about my compasrison of i Maric to Jamar.

FFW I have never said we should not be taking mature players, thats just your imagination doing it's thing, but as i did say, horses for courses. Just as you dont discount someone based solely on their age, you must not neglect their age when you are weighing up all considerations.

Pretty simple really.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

the claw

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #91 on: June 05, 2012, 09:14:07 PM »
so lets get this straight, when you said geelong saw quality to go with quality, that's not really what you meant?

Do you really think that if we had recruited pods in 2009 he would have had the same impact at richmond as he did at geelong, even though there is no way in hell you could argue we would have been recruiting quality to go with quality?

I'm not sure how you can be talking about a vfl player and then talk about "any proven AFL player" as if they are the same thing?
yes because hes a damn good player. he dominated in the vfl didnt he.he walked straight into geelongs team and performed didnt he. he would have given us more thaqn post griffiths vickery in the short term.but your right perhaps pods was a bad example of a proven afl player. but the main point was pods was 29 when taken his age was not a barrier to a side who had most of its list in the 25 plus age bracket.
its a simple criteria and i thought it was pretty easy to follow how we get bogged down in these discussions is beyond me.
1/ the older player you are taking is proven and can do a job for you. i have no doubt pods if taken would have done a job for us. he was a proven vfl player in fact one of the best in that comp for yrs.
2/ you are not taking that player and foregoing your future quality 10 yr players to get him, ie giving up 1st and 2nd rnd picks for a mature player.
3/ ask yourself does your list lack experience and will the player help alleviate this probnlem ie a player like pods would be invaluable even at age 29 if jack went down. a simple spread sheet will tell you where you lack and how much depth you have in each area.
4/ always remember an older player based on age alone cannot harm your list as long as you look after the youth side of it first and the player in question can play.

you are arguing over one point that pods was not afl quality fair enough but that is not what the post is about. tell me what do you disagree with in those 4 points. tell me my you think taking a mature player or two  who fit within those 4 points will hurt us.

forget pods all you are doing is detract from the main points im trying to make.i dont want to get caught up on how clubs or us rate players your dud may be my good player.thing is pods was a top notch vfl player and had been for yrs. a club like geelong full of ageing players saw fit to take an experienced mature player at age 29. we and all other clubs ignored him because he was too old apparently. well i hope at richmond we have lernt something from that.

maybe you disagree that we have very few in the 25 plus age brackets. maybe you disagree we have few 100 gamers. you probably disagree with the very point that getting a proven mature player  who will cost little like merrett ie thru free agency is not  going to harm us. if you dont disagree a cant see the point of your post.
i ask how can taking a good player be harmful to our list or any list if you have few experienced players and you are not paying much for them. the age is not important as long as we are not getting a dud and selling the future away. the state of the list says we can do with a few more seniors who can play.

at 29  straight out of the vfl pods would have filled a role but  pods is probably one who should be left for the why dont we take more mature players out of state leagues debate. pods fit a lot of good criteria to get drafted and it was a disgrace by all clubs that he had to wait so long to get a chance.

 just as an example merrett would fill a need and offer something we have no depth in. his  age should not be a barrier to us taking him, its not as if we are overflowing with older players and older players who are any good.
the only way taking a 25 - 28+ yo can hurt us is if we give up 1st and 2nd rounders to get them or they are high risk underperformers.
perhaps the reason you end up in debates about points that are not your point, is because in making your point you raise a plethora of points?

Yes Podsiadly was a bad example to use.
what 4 points too many to comprehend. no answer to the gist of whats being said. but ya know what i didnt expect an answer . those who open their moths for the sake of it usually dont.
cmon tell me why we should not be taking mature players and what harm they can do to us with the 4/ points i made in mind. substance mate it goes a long way.why are you against mature players.
Craw, last time you threw down such  a challenge to me and i bothered to take the time to respond, you didnt, or couldnt, take the time to respond directly back. all you did was make a snide comment in a different thread about my compasrison of i Maric to Jamar.

FFW I have never said we should not be taking mature players, thats just your imagination doing it's thing, but as i did say, horses for courses. Just as you dont discount someone based solely on their age, you must not neglect their age when you are weighing up all considerations.

Pretty simple really.
so whats important to you when taking a mature player. all i ever get is broad statements from people they never say why we should not take older players or if we should what criteria.
its a lot like your last reply i call it fence sitting.
i mean to say i come with both the pros and cons and all i cop is fence sitting.

as for the maric jamar thing i apologise. if you havent noticed until recently i would come on here for an hour and three weeks later come on again. the reason is ive always felt this site too clique if you like.very hard to break into circles and too few posters.
thing is im now at a point where forums dont do it for me any more just too many who wont give reasons for their stands. i get fed up losing the theme of a discussion on single points. usually because someone rates a player higher than another.or if you dare say something negative about a player. thing is its impossible to talk about list management or recruiting without mentioning players. and thats the two areas im into.

Offline Eat_em_Alive

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2012, 10:05:58 PM »
Tbh understand the last part of your post.
Wouldn't expevt to break into any circles here myself and nor will I try to.
There are great ppl on this forum, its just not a shiny happy place like big footy or pre. Consider this that run down dim lit bar. With the usual suspects inside. But that's why I like it and I'm sure others do too.

Plenty of character and charm in this place, and you all play a part in it mate.  :thumbsup

It could be so much worse... We could be bummers fans on air hanger forum who are talking about getting their photo taken with the 2012 premiership cup :shh
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Offline Coach

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #93 on: June 05, 2012, 10:10:31 PM »
Not sure there's any circles to break into. ... Everyone has their say.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 10:17:54 PM by one-eyed »

Offline Owl

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #94 on: June 05, 2012, 10:13:54 PM »
haha excellent description eat_em_Alive.
People are just a bit blunter and letting their guts out a bit here lol.  As long as we keep the glassings to a mininum, blood stains clash with the beer stains and cigarette burns.
Lots of people name their swords......

Offline Penelope

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2012, 10:36:26 PM »

Quote
so whats important to you when taking a mature player. all i ever get is broad statements from people they never say why we should not take older players or if we should what criteria.
its a lot like your last reply i call it fence sitting.
i mean to say i come with both the pros and cons and all i cop is fence sitting.

as for the maric jamar thing i apologise. if you havent noticed until recently i would come on here for an hour and three weeks later come on again. the reason is ive always felt this site too clique if you like.very hard to break into circles and too few posters.
thing is im now at a point where forums dont do it for me any more just too many who wont give reasons for their stands. i get fed up losing the theme of a discussion on single points. usually because someone rates a player higher than another.or if you dare say something negative about a player. thing is its impossible to talk about list management or recruiting without mentioning players. and thats the two areas im into.

ok, once again dont raise so many points at once. Something i learned early on in this caper, is that by raising too many points, even if if you feel you backing up your original, it makes it too easy for someone to sidetrack.

as for what to look for in older players, it depends on where your side is at.

I argued for the getting of Bradshaw, because i saw an experienced player who could help out the younger forwards. In the end though, he wanted 3 years an i thought that was one year too many.

As it turns out the club got better value for money with Miller, because  the purpose was not so much the player's on field performance, but other things they brought, and he could be aholed at any time that suited.

If we go back to podsiiadly, when he was rookied by geelong I dont think he was what we needed, at the time, as he still had a learning curve in front of him, whereas we need afl experienced players, of strong and sound character, as senior members. He would have bought very little in terms of experience and would have struggled in a side that was still a long, long way off in terms of playing to game plan and structure.

he was though a good fit for geelong, because they were a well oiled machine and he could easily fit in. he wasnt expected to lead , but to learn and do his job simply as a footballer.

we are now approaching a stage where an older player performing at a high level in a lower league may be of some benefit.

But i wont make a  broad reaching statement about whether it is always a good or bad thing to do. I prefer to make a judgment on each scenario as it raises itself, on it's merits as i see it, at the time.

If that's fence sitting, then i have a picket or two firmly up my lemonade and sars.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways my ways,” says the Lord.
 
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are my ways higher than your ways,
And my thoughts than your thoughts."

Yahweh? or the great Clawski?

yaw rehto eht dellorcs ti fi daer ot reisae eb dluow tI

Offline Smokey

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2012, 06:21:05 AM »

If that's fence sitting, then i have a picket or two firmly up my lemonade and sars.

 :lol

And sadly, I just formed a mental picture!   :o

Offline tiga

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2012, 03:09:01 PM »
haha excellent description eat_em_Alive.
People are just a bit blunter and letting their guts out a bit here lol.  As long as we keep the glassings to a mininum, blood stains clash with the beer stains and cigarette burns.
Sounds a bit like the old Anchor & Hope Owl. You never knew what you were getting when you walked into that joint.

the claw

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2012, 03:28:22 PM »

Quote
so whats important to you when taking a mature player. all i ever get is broad statements from people they never say why we should not take older players or if we should what criteria.
its a lot like your last reply i call it fence sitting.
i mean to say i come with both the pros and cons and all i cop is fence sitting.

as for the maric jamar thing i apologise. if you havent noticed until recently i would come on here for an hour and three weeks later come on again. the reason is ive always felt this site too clique if you like.very hard to break into circles and too few posters.
thing is im now at a point where forums dont do it for me any more just too many who wont give reasons for their stands. i get fed up losing the theme of a discussion on single points. usually because someone rates a player higher than another.or if you dare say something negative about a player. thing is its impossible to talk about list management or recruiting without mentioning players. and thats the two areas im into.

ok, once again dont raise so many points at once. Something i learned early on in this caper, is that by raising too many points, even if if you feel you backing up your original, it makes it too easy for someone to sidetrack.

as for what to look for in older players, it depends on where your side is at.

I argued for the getting of Bradshaw, because i saw an experienced player who could help out the younger forwards. In the end though, he wanted 3 years an i thought that was one year too many.

As it turns out the club got better value for money with Miller, because  the purpose was not so much the player's on field performance, but other things they brought, and he could be aholed at any time that suited.

If we go back to podsiiadly, when he was rookied by geelong I dont think he was what we needed, at the time, as he still had a learning curve in front of him, whereas we need afl experienced players, of strong and sound character, as senior members. He would have bought very little in terms of experience and would have struggled in a side that was still a long, long way off in terms of playing to game plan and structure.

he was though a good fit for geelong, because they were a well oiled machine and he could easily fit in. he wasnt expected to lead , but to learn and do his job simply as a footballer.

we are now approaching a stage where an older player performing at a high level in a lower league may be of some benefit.

But i wont make a  broad reaching statement about whether it is always a good or bad thing to do. I prefer to make a judgment on each scenario as it raises itself, on it's merits as i see it, at the time.

If that's fence sitting, then i have a picket or two firmly up my lemonade and sars.
fair enough basically what ive said just in a different way.

i would say atm with just 9 players on the list aged 25 plus as long as we do not trade away good picks and forgo our future taking 3 or 4 mature types cannot hurt us but more likely give us a benefit.
the player that bought this debate on was merrett. imo he would be a perfect short term fit for us if we could get him cheap.
if moore could get back to his best we would have some sort of real depth and genuine experience to call on in that area which at the end of the day is what im slanting toward in this debate.

merrett, moore, rance,grimes, and griffiths if hes to genuinely stay back all competing for three spots and if two go down you have very solid players coming in. we also have two talls on the rookie list both defenders it allows us to develop them at coburg with no need to rush them in. that imo still leaves a spot for one more tall defender on the list proper. it could be astbury but i reckon he will go forward. reckon mcguane and post are in serious trouble.

Offline Owl

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2012, 09:47:04 PM »
Theres been a lot of text around here lately, someone been quoting the mahabarata or the bible or something?
Lots of people name their swords......

dwaino

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2012, 09:50:13 PM »
Theres been a lot of text around here lately, someone been quoting the mahabarata or the bible or something?

Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Offline Owl

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2012, 09:59:15 PM »
lol Ill have my secretary summarise it for me into a NEAT LITTLE PACKAGE...
Lots of people name their swords......

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2012, 11:06:09 PM »
You should keep posting on this website its good to hear all views.

At the end of the day we all want rfc to win flag / have as strong a list as possible

so lets get this straight, when you said geelong saw quality to go with quality, that's not really what you meant?

Do you really think that if we had recruited pods in 2009 he would have had the same impact at richmond as he did at geelong, even though there is no way in hell you could argue we would have been recruiting quality to go with quality?

I'm not sure how you can be talking about a vfl player and then talk about "any proven AFL player" as if they are the same thing?
yes because hes a damn good player. he dominated in the vfl didnt he.he walked straight into geelongs team and performed didnt he. he would have given us more thaqn post griffiths vickery in the short term.but your right perhaps pods was a bad example of a proven afl player. but the main point was pods was 29 when taken his age was not a barrier to a side who had most of its list in the 25 plus age bracket.
its a simple criteria and i thought it was pretty easy to follow how we get bogged down in these discussions is beyond me.
1/ the older player you are taking is proven and can do a job for you. i have no doubt pods if taken would have done a job for us. he was a proven vfl player in fact one of the best in that comp for yrs.
2/ you are not taking that player and foregoing your future quality 10 yr players to get him, ie giving up 1st and 2nd rnd picks for a mature player.
3/ ask yourself does your list lack experience and will the player help alleviate this probnlem ie a player like pods would be invaluable even at age 29 if jack went down. a simple spread sheet will tell you where you lack and how much depth you have in each area.
4/ always remember an older player based on age alone cannot harm your list as long as you look after the youth side of it first and the player in question can play.

you are arguing over one point that pods was not afl quality fair enough but that is not what the post is about. tell me what do you disagree with in those 4 points. tell me my you think taking a mature player or two  who fit within those 4 points will hurt us.

forget pods all you are doing is detract from the main points im trying to make.i dont want to get caught up on how clubs or us rate players your dud may be my good player.thing is pods was a top notch vfl player and had been for yrs. a club like geelong full of ageing players saw fit to take an experienced mature player at age 29. we and all other clubs ignored him because he was too old apparently. well i hope at richmond we have lernt something from that.

maybe you disagree that we have very few in the 25 plus age brackets. maybe you disagree we have few 100 gamers. you probably disagree with the very point that getting a proven mature player  who will cost little like merrett ie thru free agency is not  going to harm us. if you dont disagree a cant see the point of your post.
i ask how can taking a good player be harmful to our list or any list if you have few experienced players and you are not paying much for them. the age is not important as long as we are not getting a dud and selling the future away. the state of the list says we can do with a few more seniors who can play.

at 29  straight out of the vfl pods would have filled a role but  pods is probably one who should be left for the why dont we take more mature players out of state leagues debate. pods fit a lot of good criteria to get drafted and it was a disgrace by all clubs that he had to wait so long to get a chance.

 just as an example merrett would fill a need and offer something we have no depth in. his  age should not be a barrier to us taking him, its not as if we are overflowing with older players and older players who are any good.
the only way taking a 25 - 28+ yo can hurt us is if we give up 1st and 2nd rounders to get them or they are high risk underperformers.
perhaps the reason you end up in debates about points that are not your point, is because in making your point you raise a plethora of points?

Yes Podsiadly was a bad example to use.
what 4 points too many to comprehend. no answer to the gist of whats being said. but ya know what i didnt expect an answer . those who open their moths for the sake of it usually dont.
cmon tell me why we should not be taking mature players and what harm they can do to us with the 4/ points i made in mind. substance mate it goes a long way.why are you against mature players.
Craw, last time you threw down such  a challenge to me and i bothered to take the time to respond, you didnt, or couldnt, take the time to respond directly back. all you did was make a snide comment in a different thread about my compasrison of i Maric to Jamar.

FFW I have never said we should not be taking mature players, thats just your imagination doing it's thing, but as i did say, horses for courses. Just as you dont discount someone based solely on their age, you must not neglect their age when you are weighing up all considerations.

Pretty simple really.
so whats important to you when taking a mature player. all i ever get is broad statements from people they never say why we should not take older players or if we should what criteria.
its a lot like your last reply i call it fence sitting.
i mean to say i come with both the pros and cons and all i cop is fence sitting.

as for the maric jamar thing i apologise. if you havent noticed until recently i would come on here for an hour and three weeks later come on again. the reason is ive always felt this site too clique if you like.very hard to break into circles and too few posters.
thing is im now at a point where forums dont do it for me any more just too many who wont give reasons for their stands. i get fed up losing the theme of a discussion on single points. usually because someone rates a player higher than another.or if you dare say something negative about a player. thing is its impossible to talk about list management or recruiting without mentioning players. and thats the two areas im into.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Where are our holes now!
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2012, 11:11:37 PM »
10-15 yrs ago i would have killed to have a young list with playere with some talent.

Better than a bunch of 28 c graders as in past years.

To have rance grimes griff as our young/senior is a healthy postion. If abit havibg your cake at eat it wanting daniel merret waiting in the wings at coburg.


Quote
so whats important to you when taking a mature player. all i ever get is broad statements from people they never say why we should not take older players or if we should what criteria.
its a lot like your last reply i call it fence sitting.
i mean to say i come with both the pros and cons and all i cop is fence sitting.

as for the maric jamar thing i apologise. if you havent noticed until recently i would come on here for an hour and three weeks later come on again. the reason is ive always felt this site too clique if you like.very hard to break into circles and too few posters.
thing is im now at a point where forums dont do it for me any more just too many who wont give reasons for their stands. i get fed up losing the theme of a discussion on single points. usually because someone rates a player higher than another.or if you dare say something negative about a player. thing is its impossible to talk about list management or recruiting without mentioning players. and thats the two areas im into.

ok, once again dont raise so many points at once. Something i learned early on in this caper, is that by raising too many points, even if if you feel you backing up your original, it makes it too easy for someone to sidetrack.

as for what to look for in older players, it depends on where your side is at.

I argued for the getting of Bradshaw, because i saw an experienced player who could help out the younger forwards. In the end though, he wanted 3 years an i thought that was one year too many.

As it turns out the club got better value for money with Miller, because  the purpose was not so much the player's on field performance, but other things they brought, and he could be aholed at any time that suited.

If we go back to podsiiadly, when he was rookied by geelong I dont think he was what we needed, at the time, as he still had a learning curve in front of him, whereas we need afl experienced players, of strong and sound character, as senior members. He would have bought very little in terms of experience and would have struggled in a side that was still a long, long way off in terms of playing to game plan and structure.

he was though a good fit for geelong, because they were a well oiled machine and he could easily fit in. he wasnt expected to lead , but to learn and do his job simply as a footballer.

we are now approaching a stage where an older player performing at a high level in a lower league may be of some benefit.

But i wont make a  broad reaching statement about whether it is always a good or bad thing to do. I prefer to make a judgment on each scenario as it raises itself, on it's merits as i see it, at the time.

If that's fence sitting, then i have a picket or two firmly up my lemonade and sars.
fair enough basically what ive said just in a different way.

i would say atm with just 9 players on the list aged 25 plus as long as we do not trade away good picks and forgo our future taking 3 or 4 mature types cannot hurt us but more likely give us a benefit.
the player that bought this debate on was merrett. imo he would be a perfect short term fit for us if we could get him cheap.
if moore could get back to his best we would have some sort of real depth and genuine experience to call on in that area which at the end of the day is what im slanting toward in this debate.

merrett, moore, rance,grimes, and griffiths if hes to genuinely stay back all competing for three spots and if two go down you have very solid players coming in. we also have two talls on the rookie list both defenders it allows us to develop them at coburg with no need to rush them in. that imo still leaves a spot for one more tall defender on the list proper. it could be astbury but i reckon he will go forward. reckon mcguane and post are in serious trouble.