Sack Hardwick [merged]

[the claw]

The club has very low standards. Our club chases players like Houli and Grigg. When I said at the time of their recruitment that they were C grade footballers at best, I was attacked, that we won the trades because we paid less.

I got some news boys - when you trade like for like and what your trading out, your happy to trade out - then what you get in isnt going to produce the results you want.

Our club lacks ambition. Too many people at Richmond getting paid big dollars and produce rubbish results and then we all sit around and blame the coach who has done a massive job, people have forgotten that hes cleared out 30 blokes in two and half years, and he still has about 12 players to go. Thats the list he found. It was crap when he came and its still got a massive way to go.

lol your right houli and grigg are c graders they cost nothing and replaced very obvious d graders thus lifting the overall standard of the list. isnt that what its about. with early picks chase quality with later picks look for improvement.

anyone who bunnies about us getting houli and grigg have nfi what ever. Geez sake houli cost a psd  pick one of those picks  like a rookie pick when used on kids fails at all clubs 90% of the time

nason and webberley are both upgrades on duds they cost nothing and the simple fact is we value add again when we cut them.

[Tigeritis™©®]

if the culture was so bad , we would still be getting the floggings we got under wallace, not constantly loosing close games.

while still not good enough its a step in the right direction.

some people seem to think that it is as easy as switching a switch, but anyone that has played competitve sport at an any level knows its not that simple

it's as easy as demanding a high standard and not accepting anything less.

I played at 3 clubs. One club didn't have a high standard of achievement and I was a regular player in that team because of the lack of standards.
I played at another club which was ruthless with the playing group and I only played 5 senior games for that team. The last club I played for the coach got sacked mid way through the year and the new coach was completly different with his standards compared to the sacked coach we weren't allowed to make a mistake at training and we were severly punished as a group if anyone made a mistake.
We made finals that year when it didn't look possible.

A coach can make a huge difference but he needs to demand it and not accept anything less.
From what I see Hardwick has lesser standards than what Clarkson has.

That sounds as much about the quality of the players rather than the standards.

you can cry all you want about not accepting mediorcicy, but you will never ever turn someone like mcguane into a top line footballer, no matter how many times you make the team do push ups because he misses a target at training or any other stupidity you want to come up with.

we are scraping the bottom of the barrel and asking a lot of 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players because of the cleanouts we have had and injuries/ suspensions.

Until we get blokes ranked 22-28 on the list that can can step up when needed, once we go away from our best 22 you will not get near top line performance.

No amout of wailing, magic wand waving, self flagellation or incantation chanting will change that.

The fact that you could not stand up to the higher standard required when in the better teams, should highlight this to you.

Culture change is all encompassing Al.
I couldn't make the good team because I wasn't good enough and very lazy but the last team I played for when the new coach arrived made me a better player because I knew if I didn't reach the new coaches standards I wouldn't get a game. I decided to finally work my arse off to make the team. Did it make me a better player? Absolutely.

I agree that Mcguane isn't a good player. The question needs to be asked why is he still there. Did they see something? Did they think he could be a KPP we needed? Why has it taken so long to get rid of him? 
The club has already turned of 2/3rds of it's list which is great but without raising the standard of excellence and demanding perfection will these new players ever rise to the heights they're capable?
If you accept less or have low standards then we continue to wait for the Mcguane's on our list to make it when they're never going to.

But when the standard is high lesser player lift. Won't shirk responsibility, won't pull out of contests, won't make fundamental mistakes, won't lose the unlosable game in Cairns. Etc etc.

how do you explain the loss last night when we are infront with minutes to go?
How do explain losing to GC when it was almost impossible to lose?
     

[Penelope]

the reason why mcguane was kept. so that when we got to a postion like this we at least had some senior, mature body to play when we got desperate.

but your last two questions are pertinent.

the bottom line, is that collectively, as a team, we were not mature, or experienced enough to nail these games.

you could even say that we were not mentally strong enough, but unless you are a simple black and white person, that does not mean mentally week. if we were mentally week, like under wallace we would not even have been in that position. the game would have been lost long before then.

we still need to toughen up mentally, yes, but if the players have the strength of character, they will learn from these experiences, they will learn not to go into their shells but to continue doing what they did to get into this postition to start with.

we have very few on field leaders, of the true sense, and even fewer that have the experience behind them required to show the young blokes the way. this means they only learn the hard way.

if in twelve months time we are still in exactly the same postion, i will be the first to admit there is a problem, but right now the fact we get into this position, rather than turn turtle completely once the pressure is applied shows improvement.
some cant and some dont want to see that. fine. i cant stop people from being miserable gits

[Tigeritis™©®]

the reason why mcguane was kept. so that when we got to a postion like this we at least had some senior, mature body to play when we got desperate.

but your last two questions are pertinent.

the bottom line, is that collectively, as a team, we were not mature, or experienced enough to nail these games.

you could even say that we were not mentally strong enough, but unless you are a simple black and white person, that does not mean mentally week. if we were mentally week, like under wallace we would not even have been in that position. the game would have been lost long before then.

we still need to toughen up mentally, yes, but if the players have the strength of character, they will learn from these experiences, they will learn not to go into their shells but to continue doing what they did to get into this postition to start with.

we have very few on field leaders, of the true sense, and even fewer that have the experience behind them required to show the young blokes the way. this means they only learn the hard way.

if in twelve months time we are still in exactly the same postion, i will be the first to admit there is a problem, but right now the fact we get into this position, rather than turn turtle completely once the pressure is applied shows improvement.
some cant and some dont want to see that. fine. i cant stop people from being miserable gits

I really really really hope that next year we are playing finals. I really really really hope I'm completely wrong and there is no culture problem.
But it's all I see at the minute because it's exactly what the club is showing me by the fruits of their actions.
I really really really hope next year we aren't in this position because if we are then I think it'll be plainly obvious to all that culture is the only issue that hasn't been addressed and we will have missed the boat again.

[Gigantor]

Al how do you explain Carlton having 10 senior players out and yet still finding a way to win?

[Jackstar is back!!!]

Haven't shown signs of anything except for an ability to lose the impossible on a consistent basis. 

A Carlton reserve team without Judd against a near complete richmond list.  Carlton didn't cry we can't win because we have no depth. Ratten was up and about because he knew that Hardwick would do everything possible to save his (Rattens) career.

We added Maric, Morris, and Tuck to the senior line up this year.  That's the difference between the 10 goal losses and close losses.  There have been no other improvements to complement that.  Hardwick has done nothing except for correcting the ridiculous decision not to play Tuck last year.  Still umming and ahhing about signing him up again.

The Richmond media circus has to keep pushing the message "improvement".  This is the best list we have had for a very long time.  If we really had improved, we wouldn't need the club to sell us the message, it would be blatantly obvious.  We would be playing finals.

You add Cloke and Malthouse to this line up and we will be a top 4 side next year, not in 10 years time.

Totally agree
Cant believe the grief they put Tuck through.
Have just watched press conferece after the game as Hardwick say " he needs to improve.
WTF
IMPROVEMENT is measured by RESULTS, not PROGRESS !!!!!

[TigerTimeII]

my god you love yourself

[Hellenic Tiger]

Haven't shown signs of anything except for an ability to lose the impossible on a consistent basis. 

A Carlton reserve team without Judd against a near complete richmond list.  Carlton didn't cry we can't win because we have no depth. Ratten was up and about because he knew that Hardwick would do everything possible to save his (Rattens) career.

We added Maric, Morris, and Tuck to the senior line up this year.  That's the difference between the 10 goal losses and close losses.  There have been no other improvements to complement that.  Hardwick has done nothing except for correcting the ridiculous decision not to play Tuck last year.  Still umming and ahhing about signing him up again.

The Richmond media circus has to keep pushing the message "improvement".  This is the best list we have had for a very long time.  If we really had improved, we wouldn't need the club to sell us the message, it would be blatantly obvious.  We would be playing finals.

You add Cloke and Malthouse to this line up and we will be a top 4 side next year, not in 10 years time.

Totally agree
Cant believe the grief they put Tuck through.
Have just watched press conferece after the game as Hardwick say " he needs to improve.
WTF
IMPROVEMENT is measured by RESULTS, not PROGRESS !!!!!

Improvement is measured by results then what is progress developed by?
Development?
Systemic Structures?
Depth of Resource?
Innovation through change and continuous development?
Enhancing the overall product?

or
Sacking the rookie coach?
Blaming the poor culture of the last 30 years on bloke that has to strip back on resources who cannot do a job due to their inferior quality.
Blaming a rookie coach who has come from a winning culture(s) Essendon Port and Hawthorn and trying to implement some of that on a club who has had no culture in 30 years.
Blaming a rookie coach who in an era of compromised drafts has had to use all the nous he has to get the list as competitive as he can.
Once the finger has been pointed squarely at the club pointing it at individuals in their first and second year at the club 18 and 19 year old kids because its easier to point the finger at them and claim the sky is falling than being repetitive and pointing the finger at the blokes who have failed the club so often over and over again.
Or blaming a rookie coach who had to pick up the pieces of a debaucherous previous regime and has not had the opportunity to break the shackles as yet because the job has been so enourmous that his predecessor should have been banned from even talking about us for life.

Back to my question what is progress measured by. Give me the KPI on that.

[big tone]

At what stage do some of you spinless jellyfish think it's ok to stop blaming past coaches and lists and start looking at whats going on now!
So sick of hearing excuses for Dimma. The facts are, our best players this year were either on our list before Hardwick got the job (Lids, Cotch, Foley, Jack, Rance, Edwards Tuck, Newman) or traded players from other clubs (Maric, Grigg and Bacha) or a mature age kid from a state league (Morris) Most of the rest are a disgrace!
How's our development going under Hardwick? Or is that Wallace's fault as well??
And if any of you think Ellis and Conca are travelling ok then you obviously don't know anything about the game. Both have been terrible!! And i don't give a shyt how many games they have played or their ages- they are both useless the way they are going.
Now i don't think we should sack Hardwick but FFS he has to be held accountable at some stage!!

[rogerd3]

we havent improved
Culture is rubbish
The losses and the way we lose is terrible

so you would prefer thrashings.

[Penelope]

Al how do you explain Carlton having 10 senior players out and yet still finding a way to win?

because at full strength they were regarded as a top 4 side. overall they have more experienced and mature players to carry younger players.

they are not relying on 1st 2nd and 3rd year players like we are.

when you start at a higher base level, you dont drop off as far.

you could really go in circles with this, like pointing out that a couple of weeks ago west coast had 3 senior players out and got belted by 10 goals at home. what do we read into that?

Geelong is probably the one to look at though. look at how much easier it for them to slot youngsters alongside experienced and mature players, where the youngsters can feed of them, rather than be expected to step up and be major contributors for the team.

[unplugged]

because at full strength they were regarded as a top 4 side. overall they have more experienced and mature players to carry younger players.

What a load of apologetic waffle.  They weren't even half strength.  Our senior team lost to their baby team and still you make excuses. Lets not forget the loss to GCS.  If you don't expect to beat these teams, then you need to raise your expectations above mediocrity.   A 5 goal win against Carlton would have been a disappointing result.  To actually lose is sublimely stupid.

What did Hardwick do to stop Murphy from running free and absolutely destroy us?  Why did Carlton have so many loose players all over the ground when we were up by 13 points..  AGAIN.  Let me repeat.  AGAIN.

Forget from year to year.  We don't improve from week to week.   Whatever you think of Hardwick, he cannot coach on match day.  That is enough reason to sack him.  All his other failing are just icing on a very bitter burnt cake.

[10 FLAGS]

The club has very low standards. Our club chases players like Houli and Grigg. When I said at the time of their recruitment that they were C grade footballers at best, I was attacked, that we won the trades because we paid less.

I got some news boys - when you trade like for like and what your trading out, your happy to trade out - then what you get in isnt going to produce the results you want.

Our club lacks ambition. Too many people at Richmond getting paid big dollars and produce rubbish results and then we all sit around and blame the coach who has done a massive job, people have forgotten that hes cleared out 30 blokes in two and half years, and he still has about 12 players to go. Thats the list he found. It was crap when he came and its still got a massive way to go.

lol your right houli and grigg are c graders they cost nothing and replaced very obvious d graders thus lifting the overall standard of the list. isnt that what its about. with early picks chase quality with later picks look for improvement.

anyone who bunnies about us getting houli and grigg have nfi what ever. Geez sake houli cost a psd  pick one of those picks  like a rookie pick when used on kids fails at all clubs 90% of the time

nason and webberley are both upgrades on duds they cost nothing and the simple fact is we value add again when we cut them.

I never said anything about Nason or Webberley anywhere in my post. As for Houli and Grigg, I never rated them as footballers to start with.

[Penelope]

because at full strength they were regarded as a top 4 side. overall they have more experienced and mature players to carry younger players.

What a load of apologetic waffle.  They weren't even half strength.  Our senior team lost to their baby team and still you make excuses. Lets not forget the loss to GCS.  If you don't expect to beat these teams, then you need to raise your expectations above mediocrity.   A 5 goal win against Carlton would have been a disappointing result.  To actually lose is sublimely stupid.

What did Hardwick do to stop Murphy from running free and absolutely destroy us?  Why did Carlton have so many loose players all over the ground when we were up by 13 points..  AGAIN.  Let me repeat.  AGAIN.

Forget from year to year.  We don't improve from week to week.   Whatever you think of Hardwick, he cannot coach on match day.  That is enough reason to sack him.  All his other failing are just icing on a very bitter burnt cake.

our senior team? sure!
besides that lie, the rest of your rant has nothing to do with what i said. slag off if you want, but at least address what i said.

[unplugged]

our senior team? sure!
besides that lie, the rest of your rant has nothing to do with what i said. slag off if you want, but at least address what i said.

Waffle on a bit more about Carlton's full strength team and how that makes their reserve team better than our senior team.  If that helps you sleep at night, it was addressed.  I can't help it if you didn't like the answer.