Richmond's change of recruiting philosophy drives change of fortunes (H-Sun)

[the claw]

Most recruiters point to a 5 year time frame to assess success.
Process is one things, the facts are another - the only fact worth looking to is the win/loss column over the last 5 years vs the prior 5 years along with absolute list turn over.
Facts are we've removed almost everyone from the 2009 list and gone from 4 wins to 15.
Facts speak for themselves, emotions do as well they just have a much lower impact on the argument

so francis failed abysmally in his first 5 yrs and in his next 4 yrs we managed to make finals once. even in his last 4 yrs we have won just 39 of 88 games. no emotion just facts.

my point is we would not have had to cut most of the list from 2009 if francis had an inkling in 05 06 07 08 09. hence the real need to judge people, the  players and  the club on the whole of their time  not just one yr windows or selective 4 yr periods. imo we should have at the least been playing finals 5 yrs ago if the recruiters had done their job.

finally i would argue strongly that the players who have driven the 15 wins this yr are the very few we took prior to  2010. and the experienced mature recruits  like chaplin and maric.
cotchin deledio even jackson this yr martin newman rance and riewoldt  thats 7 and 4 of em are jacksons.  thats just 4 good footballers from the nd in a 5 yr period. we want to hope the next 5 yr period doesnt pan out the same way.

nope id argue to the cows come home, that we can and should be doing better in the nd.

what i dont get is why so many are averse to aiming for beytter and we do need to be better and continually improve if we wish to properly compete in this comp.

[Bengal]

. if we are going to praise jackson for getting nothing but 1st rounders right, ( and i say again most people who follow the kids would get a good percentage of 1st rounders right with all the information that is about today.  )  then we really do have the bar set too low.

He's got more right than your esteemed self..

has he???. has he really.    2005 to 2013 one finals appearance says a lot.  thats one yr shy of two five yr plans.. in 9 yrs how many  draft picks are actual success stories.  we are filling the failed yrs up with mature players now to compensate.

look all im saying is yes hes an improvement on what we had and we have improved. lets face it we could not have ever been worse.
but imo we should be doing much better than what we are when it comes to the nd overall.

yep and thats around how long it took Hawthorn and Geelong to turn over their list and rise to the level they're at.

[Bengal]

Most recruiters point to a 5 year time frame to assess success.
Process is one things, the facts are another - the only fact worth looking to is the win/loss column over the last 5 years vs the prior 5 years along with absolute list turn over.
Facts are we've removed almost everyone from the 2009 list and gone from 4 wins to 15.
Facts speak for themselves, emotions do as well they just have a much lower impact on the argument

so francis failed abysmally in his first 5 yrs and in his next 4 yrs we managed to make finals once. even in his last 4 yrs we have won just 39 of 88 games. no emotion just facts.

my point is we would not have had to cut most of the list from 2009 if francis had an inkling in 05 06 07 08 09. hence the real need to judge people, the  players and  the club on the whole of their time  not just one yr windows or selective 4 yr periods. imo we should have at the least been playing finals 5 yrs ago if the recruiters had done their job.

finally i would argue strongly that the players who have driven the 15 wins this yr are the very few we took prior to  2010. and the experienced mature recruits  like chaplin and maric.
cotchin deledio even jackson this yr martin newman rance and riewoldt  thats 7 and 4 of em are jacksons.  thats just 4 good footballers from the nd in a 5 yr period. we want to hope the next 5 yr period doesnt pan out the same way.

nope id argue to the cows come home, that we can and should be doing better in the nd.

what i dont get is why so many are averse to aiming for beytter and we do need to be better and continually improve if we wish to properly compete in this comp.

i supppose at the end of the day we accept the diffculties and hit/miss that is THE DRAFT.  yes, we all would like every pick to work out and for them to play 200 games and finals every year..  unfortunately thats not reality and its not what sport is about.  If the same team was on top for 20 years it would be boring (and they would try to charge us to watch training).  If we didnt have the successes and failures, it would be boring.. FACT.

Claw you say you try to bring balance to the arguments.. What you do is bring the same argument everytime you post..  list management/drafting!! 

sit back and enjoy the ride once in a while, enjoy the succes or failure and always, yes always, remember..  its only a game. (that generates millions of dollars and overpays people that are merely entertainers and contribute nothing really to the fabric of what is a disfunctional society)

[Tigeritis™©®]

I'm with claw on this...

You can't dismiss anyone's support. Our love for the club is such that we just turn up even though it's been totally hopeless.

But until we start consistantly beating the sides that have made us look stupid over the last 10-20-30 years I will never be satisfied. 
Its payback time for the Scum....what happened last September was the blackest day in football, no doubt about it. I still wake up in cold sweats & night terrors.
The filth have had our measure too, memories of the Jack Dyer tribute game is still well and truly etched in my mind. 
The drug cheats have been laughing at us for too many years now its time to give them some well deserved payback. 
The cats have been treating us like fools for ages and who can blame them? 

Its time to square the ledger and start to inflict some pain into the hearts and minds of opposition supporters across the country.  No more shall they smile or chuckle when I tell them I support the tigers. 
I'm sick of the laughter and until we are envied, respected and feared then I might be less critical of the club too. FFS its stuffing embarrassing that the ninth place team beat us in a final!
I'm sick of being everyone's second favorite team too. When the stuff did this happen?

Criticism is a healthy part of life. Do we want to be like those blind faith bombers supporters that still don't see the wrong and damage that Hird has inflicted on their club?
Did you see the fellow at the bombers AGM criticize his club for paying Hird whilst he's suspended? He got booted off the stage! 

Less face facts here... We've all been through the numerous rebuilds. We've had a taste of success to be let down again.  The club doesn't deserve blind faith anymore. They must earn our respect just as much as they must earn the respect of all our enemies. 

We should NEVER be satisfied with second best or gradual improvement, no one at the club should be satisfied until they've achieved the premiership and we're the biggest, most feared club in the land just like it used to be. 

...I DEMAND SATISFACTION!

[yandb]

Mr Tigra that post gives me goose bumps. a passionate post from the heart. I hope that we all experience the payback this year . Go Tiges!!!!!!!

[bojangles17]

Most recruiters point to a 5 year time frame to assess success.
Process is one things, the facts are another - the only fact worth looking to is the win/loss column over the last 5 years vs the prior 5 years along with absolute list turn over.
Facts are we've removed almost everyone from the 2009 list and gone from 4 wins to 15.
Facts speak for themselves, emotions do as well they just have a much lower impact on the argument

so francis failed abysmally in his first 5 yrs and in his next 4 yrs we managed to make finals once. even in his last 4 yrs we have won just 39 of 88 games. no emotion just facts.

my point is we would not have had to cut most of the list from 2009 if francis had an inkling in 05 06 07 08 09. hence the real need to judge people, the  players and  the club on the whole of their time  not just one yr windows or selective 4 yr periods. imo we should have at the least been playing finals 5 yrs ago if the recruiters had done their job.

finally i would argue strongly that the players who have driven the 15 wins this yr are the very few we took prior to  2010. and the experienced mature recruits  like chaplin and maric.
cotchin deledio even jackson this yr martin newman rance and riewoldt  thats 7 and 4 of em are jacksons.  thats just 4 good footballers from the nd in a 5 yr period. we want to hope the next 5 yr period doesnt pan out the same way.

nope id argue to the cows come home, that we can and should be doing better in the nd.

what i dont get is why so many are averse to aiming for beytter and we do need to be better and continually improve if we wish to properly compete in this comp.

Lol, Fj s goes back 9 years hey, heck why not blame him for our failed premiership defense in '44  ...this argument needs to be hardened up with some facts, cock and bull simply won't wash

[Hard Roar Tiger]

Most recruiters point to a 5 year time frame to assess success.
Process is one things, the facts are another - the only fact worth looking to is the win/loss column over the last 5 years vs the prior 5 years along with absolute list turn over.
Facts are we've removed almost everyone from the 2009 list and gone from 4 wins to 15.
Facts speak for themselves, emotions do as well they just have a much lower impact on the argument

so francis failed abysmally in his first 5 yrs and in his next 4 yrs we managed to make finals once. even in his last 4 yrs we have won just 39 of 88 games. no emotion just facts.

my point is we would not have had to cut most of the list from 2009 if francis had an inkling in 05 06 07 08 09. hence the real need to judge people, the  players and  the club on the whole of their time  not just one yr windows or selective 4 yr periods. imo we should have at the least been playing finals 5 yrs ago if the recruiters had done their job.

finally i would argue strongly that the players who have driven the 15 wins this yr are the very few we took prior to  2010. and the experienced mature recruits  like chaplin and maric.
cotchin deledio even jackson this yr martin newman rance and riewoldt  thats 7 and 4 of em are jacksons.  thats just 4 good footballers from the nd in a 5 yr period. we want to hope the next 5 yr period doesnt pan out the same way.

nope id argue to the cows come home, that we can and should be doing better in the nd.

what i dont get is why so many are averse to aiming for beytter and we do need to be better and continually improve if we wish to properly compete in this comp.

I'd respond by saying that if you look at the club 5 years on from Wallace we are just better. Better p&l, better list, better player development and better on field results.
Noone would be adverse to the principle of continuous improvement but the issue with your posting is that it is to fixated on the destination without acknowledging the departure point. I wonder what you were posting in 2010? Did it factor in the clubs ability to invest in recruiting resources or development coaches or even training facilities?
The impact of those improvements will take time and we will continue to benefit as a club and a team by having the proper support for our recruiters to make better decisions.
Finally, analysis is only truly useful in context of how it serves the bigger picture.
Sometimes I wonder if in being caught up in the detail, you struggle to see the forest for the trees.

[Gigantor]

Good post Hard Roar

[camboon]

Amazing - can anyone explain why other clubs are picking up our delisted and fringe players.

Actions speak louder than words!!!

[Stripes]

Amazing - can anyone explain why other clubs are picking up our delisted and fringe players.

Actions speak louder than words!!!

 

[Penelope]

bottom line is claw will always think he knows better than the recruiters.

To prove it he will name 5-6 players where the recruiters can only name one, thus having a 6 fold chance of getting it right.

[tdy]

Most recruiters point to a 5 year time frame to assess success.
Process is one things, the facts are another - the only fact worth looking to is the win/loss column over the last 5 years vs the prior 5 years along with absolute list turn over.
Facts are we've removed almost everyone from the 2009 list and gone from 4 wins to 15.
Facts speak for themselves, emotions do as well they just have a much lower impact on the argument

so francis failed abysmally in his first 5 yrs and in his next 4 yrs we managed to make finals once. even in his last 4 yrs we have won just 39 of 88 games. no emotion just facts.

my point is we would not have had to cut most of the list from 2009 if francis had an inkling in 05 06 07 08 09. hence the real need to judge people, the  players and  the club on the whole of their time  not just one yr windows or selective 4 yr periods. imo we should have at the least been playing finals 5 yrs ago if the recruiters had done their job.

finally i would argue strongly that the players who have driven the 15 wins this yr are the very few we took prior to  2010. and the experienced mature recruits  like chaplin and maric.
cotchin deledio even jackson this yr martin newman rance and riewoldt  thats 7 and 4 of em are jacksons.  thats just 4 good footballers from the nd in a 5 yr period. we want to hope the next 5 yr period doesnt pan out the same way.

nope id argue to the cows come home, that we can and should be doing better in the nd.

what i dont get is why so many are averse to aiming for beytter and we do need to be better and continually improve if we wish to properly compete in this comp.

I'm with you here Claw. For quite some time I've suspected Jackson of being an average to poor recruiter.  I think Hartley is quite good but it is a team effort, or it is these days as we have a recruiting team.  I was willing to give Jackson a break for 05 06 as we weren't a full time team of recruiters.  Since then it is worrying the number of second rounders who are barely making it.  Generally I hope for 2 or more players from each draft,  1st, 2nd rounders and one of the rest. If you can't get that hit rate then after 6 or 7 years you don't have enough of a team and players are getting too old and injured or leaving.

I think the notable weaknesses in ND recruiting has been KPP, jack and Rance being the best two finds, Vickery being acceptable when not injured but not a gun with a pile of possibilities failing, Post, or being marginal Astbury, Griffiths, Moore etc

I thought Batchelor with his strength would come on better and he still may but he seems to be the stereotype of a Jackson second rounder.  Thereabouts, maybe , maybe not.  I hope he does come on and be the next Chris Johnson or Brad Scott.

What you ideally want its to find a Chapman at pick 35 every year and someone better at pick 8 but that's dreamland.  Not even Geelong do that.

[Rampstar]

I think Richard Lounder was a wasted pick

What about Wayne Hernaman?

[the claw]

. if we are going to praise jackson for getting nothing but 1st rounders right, ( and i say again most people who follow the kids would get a good percentage of 1st rounders right with all the information that is about today.  )  then we really do have the bar set too low.

He's got more right than your esteemed self..

has he???. has he really.    2005 to 2013 one finals appearance says a lot.  thats one yr shy of two five yr plans.. in 9 yrs how many  draft picks are actual success stories.  we are filling the failed yrs up with mature players now to compensate.

look all im saying is yes hes an improvement on what we had and we have improved. lets face it we could not have ever been worse.
but imo we should be doing much better than what we are when it comes to the nd overall.

yep and thats around how long it took Hawthorn and Geelong to turn over their list and rise to the level they're at.

was it revisionism is alive and well. and im accused of not keeping things real, go figure.

[the claw]

Most recruiters point to a 5 year time frame to assess success.
Process is one things, the facts are another - the only fact worth looking to is the win/loss column over the last 5 years vs the prior 5 years along with absolute list turn over.
Facts are we've removed almost everyone from the 2009 list and gone from 4 wins to 15.
Facts speak for themselves, emotions do as well they just have a much lower impact on the argument

so francis failed abysmally in his first 5 yrs and in his next 4 yrs we managed to make finals once. even in his last 4 yrs we have won just 39 of 88 games. no emotion just facts.

my point is we would not have had to cut most of the list from 2009 if francis had an inkling in 05 06 07 08 09. hence the real need to judge people, the  players and  the club on the whole of their time  not just one yr windows or selective 4 yr periods. imo we should have at the least been playing finals 5 yrs ago if the recruiters had done their job.

finally i would argue strongly that the players who have driven the 15 wins this yr are the very few we took prior to  2010. and the experienced mature recruits  like chaplin and maric.
cotchin deledio even jackson this yr martin newman rance and riewoldt  thats 7 and 4 of em are jacksons.  thats just 4 good footballers from the nd in a 5 yr period. we want to hope the next 5 yr period doesnt pan out the same way.

nope id argue to the cows come home, that we can and should be doing better in the nd.

what i dont get is why so many are averse to aiming for beytter and we do need to be better and continually improve if we wish to properly compete in this comp.

i supppose at the end of the day we accept the diffculties and hit/miss that is THE DRAFT.  yes, we all would like every pick to work out and for them to play 200 games and finals every year..  unfortunately thats not reality and its not what sport is about.  If the same team was on top for 20 years it would be boring (and they would try to charge us to watch training).  If we didnt have the successes and failures, it would be boring.. FACT.

Claw you say you try to bring balance to the arguments.. What you do is bring the same argument everytime you post..  list management/drafting!! 

sit back and enjoy the ride once in a while, enjoy the succes or failure and always, yes always, remember..  its only a game. (that generates millions of dollars and overpays people that are merely entertainers and contribute nothing really to the fabric of what is a disfunctional society)

i thinbk the first thing that should be made clear here  is the fact noone is expecting every pick to be a winner. all we ask for is a reasonable percentage.
i keep on saying it most average punters who follow the kids would get most first rounders right today. it should be expected today that we will get our first rounders right.

but what about all of our other nd picks? oh i know when talking the draft lets just ignore them.

you want to know why i mainly  focus on recruiting and list managment. its not hard to see. get these two things right and you will have onfield success no matter what else happens.

let me put it this way. if we had a bloke come to our club as the new head of recruitment and we were near the bottom of the ladder how long would be a reasonable time frame to  recruit and build the list enough to make finals. 3 yrs 4 yrs 5 yrs. well francis has had 9. and half way thru his tenure we had to cut the players he drafted  in the first half of his reign and start from scratch.
 but hey according to most on the back of an iffy finals apperance hes been great freakin great. wake up to yourselves.

we can and must go for the best person in this area.  francis jackson is a long way off what we want going by  nopthing but his record. its like comparing vickery to cox we settle for the barely up to it type  and hang on for grim death rather than aiming for better.