Author Topic: Richmond's change of recruiting philosophy drives change of fortunes (H-Sun)  (Read 13671 times)

the claw

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The fact though, despite their records after being picked up, other clubs are keen to grab our 2013 discards. Almost every player that moved from our list this year was snatched up by other clubs including even Derickx  :o This would certainly indicate to me that other clubs see value in these players to either add to their depth (or as potential backup ups if everything goes to the pooe if you prefer) or believe they can mold them into role players.

Players such as White will become a role player much the same way he was evolving into one at the Tigers. Out of all the players that exited this year I am most disappointed at losing White because he gave us a great deal of run off the HF line and was a wonderful sub at the least.

McGuane is the other that could come back to haunt us as he really does have potential as a third forward. He is strong, leads well and can smash a pack. He will never be a superstar but he is, once again, a handy depth player who can step straight in if injuries hit and can assist young forwards learning their craft in the seconds.

Nahas is another player who could be damaging in a less defensive side and if space is created for him. I think he is a good out for us but again he could be good depth as a rookie for North with their style of game and with so few elusive/fast players on their list.

I think you are missing the point Camboon is making here - the simple fact that other clubs are taking them should be seen as a positive to our list development and the strength of the squad our coaches and recruiters have put together. How they turn out elsewhere is not here or there really.
i believe the point being made stripes, was the fact we have had limited amount of players taken by other clubs prior to jackson as well as in jacksons time. its nothing new. both prior to and in jacksons time there are few due in the main to quality.

i would also argue strongly you cant develop players if they arent good enough to start with. can i ask what type of player are we aiming for with 2nd and 3rd rounders. nothing but role players geez i hope not.

i will take his record even further.
lets look at the rookie draft.
by my figures we have used 35 rookie picks in jacksons time at the club.

by my count there are 25 out right failures.
i only count 3 players who you would classify as passes. king, nahas, and petterd. i also include miller  and stephenson based on  a pure needs and experience  basis.  all mature picks.
by my count that leaves 5 50/50 players banfield, miles, thomas, williams, darrou.

just to finish can i ask how do people on here go about judging jacksons last 3 or 4 yrs.  do we really try and rate these drafts or is it too early.

for me ive shown patience with t all of our picks from 2010.

2010 -
conca - pass. yes hes a decent player. but there is the question about who we didnt take.
batchelor - 50/50. yep this is where i place him. i dont rate him and think he will struggle because of the weaknesses i see in his game. he could go either way.
helbig - 50/50. just hant been able to make the step up. he is borderline and needs a good yr.
macdonald - fail. well hes gone.
2011
ellis - pass.  as we all agree hes taken a decent player in the first rnd.
elton - 50/50. another development player who can say what he will become or even if he will make it.
arnot -  50/50 a small mid who has managed 4 senior games. he may or he may not make it. its what we say about 90% of development players.
2012
vlastuin - pass. see ellis.
mcintosh - 50/50 likely development player.
mcbean - 50/50. some will say pass he looks  a likely type.
mcdonough - 50/50again looks likely but hes yet to play a game. how do we judge these kids .
2013
lennon 50/50 hes yet to play game and we dont know what we have at afl level. of all our last 5 first rounders i have most concern over him.

so i will ask again just how do we rate jacksons last 3 or 4 drafts.


Offline Chuck17

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 Iirc Donuts played one game

the claw

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Nobody is blaming Jackson for "the failure of the club to develop  a significant number of top picks".
Posters correctly blame him for poor RECRUITING, particularly in "the first few years of his tenure".

And if you don't see the important connection between the 2 then the conversation becomes quite moot.
i think the argument is just maybe the recruiting has not taken enough players who can be developed hence we fail so badly.
i have to say tall development in particular,  under all parties including hardwick has been terrible.
but the question to ask is. is it development, recruitment or a combination of both.
think about it.  the only talls that have started as kids and really come thru are  riewoldt, rance. imo we have taken too few with too little. what i really fail to see is where development has,  as people keep on telling me improved so much.
it still seems to me the early more well rounded picks who dont need a lot of development are making it but those who need some work 2nd 3rd 4th rookie picks continue to fail.

the way i see it is. we have improved on the back of 1st rounders and mature recruits. there is very little in between.

the claw

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Iirc Donuts played one game
well done sir. hardly relevant to what is being said but well done.

Offline Stripes

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Has there been any other clubs 2013 whose discards were picked up by other clubs to the same degree as ours were?

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Lol @ some- say mcbean is a pass

Closer to a pass than a fail at this stage

What expectations did you have of a man if vis dimensions in year #1?

the claw

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Lol @ some- say mcbean is a pass

Closer to a pass than a fail at this stage

What expectations did you have of a man if vis dimensions in year #1?
yes he hasnt even played a game and has yrs of work to do on his size. where did i place him judge. thats right 50/50.  hes certainly no pass and hes certainly no failed pick either. ive got no idea how he will turn out and no one else does either.
are we going to give pass marks based on nothing but potential before they have even played a game. may as well just pass em all then eh.
i have most of our picks from 2010 onwards in the 50/50 category or development category if you like.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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60/40

Offline Bengal

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the change has come from the philosophy of who we recruit, we have changed the mentality on who we recruit, we're not picking the talented, damaged players, like Taylor for example (could have been anything this kid, sadly). As the article states and is the root of the improvement. We pick guys who arent the most talented but are the most reliable, 200 gamers, Even Dusty! Solid guys who are loyal (ignoring stupid managers).

Its this change in the recruiting that has pushed us into the finals..  We have a team that genuinely likes to play together and we dont have the clique the likes of Nathan brown bought to the club. 

Its this bond that wins games, its having guys around the club that may not have the talent but gel a team together like Jake King.  Think of the past of what happened when we lost barrot and co, it destroyed the side on an emotional level..

Its what Hungry was doing, alas never to see the fruit of his work.

Whats happening with the players they are getting, is they're adding to a team, not adding ego's.

As is the old adage, a champion team will always win against a team of champions..

Claw you can have your team of champions, im happy with my champion team thats getting built..

If you want to go into what makes great teams and how to put a great team together, the psychology of matching the personalities is as important if not more important than your goddam age, height, weight, experience and stupid list management crap that you really have no clue about as you live in WA and hardly see a game of TAC, VFL or even RICHMOND and yet still profess to say you know who the greatest juniors are..  (from watching tapes eh..  lol)

Give me a spell   :sleep  im done

the claw

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with where we are at and the way the season is unfolding  and comments made in other recent threads about hartley and jackson i thought this thread worth revisiting
if we are to improve the club must revisit these areas and find a way to do better.

Offline tigs2011

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with where we are at and the way the season is unfolding  and comments made in other recent threads about hartley and jackson i thought this thread worth revisiting
if we are to improve the club must revisit these areas and find a way to do better.

1. We went way too far.

We needed mature players. We got some on the cheap. But then went and got way too many of them. Firstly they eat salary space. Secondly it stopped us picking youth when I think the recruiters had figured what type of players to recruit on the rookie list. Small forwards, KPD's, rucks IMO. 2011 that was what we mainly drafted. Then all of a sudden 2012 = the recycled dud path.  ::)

2. We didn't try upgrade the guys we got

We settled on what we had rather than trying to upgrade the upgrades like Grigg, Houli etc.

3. Holding back development

With so many retreads, who may be slightly ahead on form, we haven't been able to blood more youth.

The idea is solid but not every pick. And the idea was as back-up not first team. Why that went out the window I don't know.

the claw

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agree with all of that 2011.
unlike most who are now reacting like the situation now  its a bolt out of the blue i believe we had to
1/  take some mature players and  must continue to take mature recruits along with the right quota of juniors. when we take mature players ensure we go thru a good process and ensure those we take tick enough boxes. i think in a big way we have moved away from this.

2/ i cant agree more. there was good cause for us to take grigg houli etc when we did there is nothing wrong with value adding and addressing short comings. our trouble is we ignored the weaknesses of these recruits and stopped looking for better more well rounded players. we also failed to adequately recruit enough juniors for positions these mature players had thus we are now back where we started from no kids coming thru and needing to look to a mature upgrade.
i would have thought one of the biggest reasons you take a mature player is to allow you time to develop what is hopefully a very good junior in that position.you cant do that if you dont have the same type even on your list.

3/ i agree again.  but i think it goes further. it not only has stifled the desire to play kids it has affected recruitment as well. what is alarming and  i can in all honesty ask in a lot of cases what kids.

just to finish. finals in my opinion is now a pipe dream in fact i have thought them an improbability since rnd 1 and a tough thing to achieve even  before the yr started.
we now have to find out what the following have to offer so we can make a proper decision on them.
arnot, banfield, darrou, dea, elton, gordon, griffiths, grimes, helbig, knights, lloyd, mcbean, mcdonough, mcintosh, miles, ohanlon , and williams. but we have to do it in a way where we can at least remain competetive beltings wont do any good to anyone  and we need an environment where these blokes have some sort of chance of showing what they have.

Offline tdy

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Why do you think the club got ahead of itself again and over rated this list?  Are the people n the club under such inordinate pressure t they can't admit the true standard of the list? Is it just collective wishful thinking? Is Not Just this lot that have done it, we have done it under Frawley too.

Are we too collegiate with players we know in order to avoid the spitefulness of the past

the claw

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Why do you think the club got ahead of itself again and over rated this list?  Are the people n the club under such inordinate pressure t they can't admit the true standard of the list? Is it just collective wishful thinking? Is Not Just this lot that have done it, we have done it under Frawley too.

Are we too collegiate with players we know in order to avoid the spitefulness of the past
just the way we went about the off season tidyman and the list itself.
its simple i rate players on some pretty simple criteria. strengths weakness and performance are the keys for me. even in making the finals we had far too many players who were what i call glass half fulls.  the list was also shallow lacking depth and quality in far too many areas.
for me we were still very much in rebuild mode yet we ignored youth and went down an over the top top up path. it was often stated that making finals last yr would just paper over the very obvious cracks that were there.it was stated even in winning 15 games far too much was too often left to too few. it was also stated that a lot of players would revert to type because of their performance history and weaknesses in their games.
as it is most of it has come home to roost it wasnt hard to see it coming.

i still think to get better and improve enough to become a real contender,  we must first and foremost  get the horse in front of the cart and address our recruiting and list managment issues,  because if we dont it will just be a mute point useing nd picks if we get most of them wrong. hence i bought this thread back up.
i strongly question both jackson and hartley and the job they have done.

Offline tigs2011

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agree with all of that 2011.
unlike most who are now reacting like the situation now  its a bolt out of the blue i believe we had to
1/  take some mature players and  must continue to take mature recruits along with the right quota of juniors. when we take mature players ensure we go thru a good process and ensure those we take tick enough boxes. i think in a big way we have moved away from this.

2/ i cant agree more. there was good cause for us to take grigg houli etc when we did there is nothing wrong with value adding and addressing short comings. our trouble is we ignored the weaknesses of these recruits and stopped looking for better more well rounded players. we also failed to adequately recruit enough juniors for positions these mature players had thus we are now back where we started from no kids coming thru and needing to look to a mature upgrade.
i would have thought one of the biggest reasons you take a mature player is to allow you time to develop what is hopefully a very good junior in that position.you cant do that if you dont have the same type even on your list.

3/ i agree again.  but i think it goes further. it not only has stifled the desire to play kids it has affected recruitment as well. what is alarming and  i can in all honesty ask in a lot of cases what kids.

just to finish. finals in my opinion is now a pipe dream in fact i have thought them an improbability since rnd 1 and a tough thing to achieve even  before the yr started.
we now have to find out what the following have to offer so we can make a proper decision on them.
arnot, banfield, darrou, dea, elton, gordon, griffiths, grimes, helbig, knights, lloyd, mcbean, mcdonough, mcintosh, miles, ohanlon , and williams. but we have to do it in a way where we can at least remain competetive beltings wont do any good to anyone  and we need an environment where these blokes have some sort of chance of showing what they have.
Well said. Just to add to 1. I think we need to target state league mature's who haven't been tried rather than tried and failed guys on the rookie list. Or at least young delisted guys like Miles. Guys who have a chance to become something better than they've shown.

There are some decent 19/20 yo blokes running around who would offer us some potential upgrades on what we have.

Darcy Cameron (future ruck)
Shannon Taylor (upgrade on well...no one)
Isaiah Miller (potential upgrade on Houli - personally think he is better than Langdon who goes alright)

There will be other young guys from the new teams that shake free like Miles did too. No more 27-30 year old hacks.

Wouldn't mind forking out the cash for a Mundy type who is a hard worker and could help shape the culture for a few years.