Author Topic: Recruiting  (Read 6607 times)

Offline torch

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2014, 04:55:26 PM »
Any person at Richmond who seriously believed that recruiting Grigg & co would take Richmond to a Premiership has no place at our club IMHO. Seriously our club is a mess, the whole philosophy of the joint is up the creek. We are a powerhouse club with fantastic facilities and no debt and instead of going out and getting A graders in we go for Monkeyball and recruiting rejects from other clubs its just a sick joke on behalf of the club against the members and supporters of the club who put in their hard earned every year to pay for the salaries of the administrators and players its a stuffen joke.

Here, here!

Grigg, Petterd, S.Edwards must be dropped ASAP!

dwaino

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2014, 05:05:06 PM »
It's easy to be critical, to sit back and pot the club at every opportunity. The past seven years the premierships have been shared and dominated by only 4 clubs, so anyone else from any other club could have sat back and trash talked their own side and eventually they would have been correct and start up the peeing contest how in their omniscient footy brains called it from the start. It takes bigger nurries to put them on the line and back the club in and publicly state so. To do so is just an invite to be ridiculed. At the time I thought getting blokes like Houli and Grigg was pretty shrewd since the best of the draft had already been skimmed by GCS, then later by GWS, and there was no way we were going to get competitive by shoving a pick 60 and 80 from a compromised draft into the side. What I don't like though is that these players should have been upgraded on. But really, what with? We haven't had access to the players we should have been able to in the draft, and nobody wants our duds when we put them on the trade table. Adams should have been a Tiger, but when it came down to it we didn't have anything of value. Shaw was better than anything we could afford to lose and they didn't even want Martin in the end. I don't really give a stuff about being wrong about anything and I can pretty easily admit it. I was a fan of our strategy a few years back and now I think it stinks. So I put my hand up there being wrong quite willingly.

I was talking to a Carlton workmate today and we were both feeling sorry for ourselves (not our clubs, they can get stuffed) and wondered if these new clubs didn't come in to skim the draft if Geelong, Hawthorn and to an extent Sydney and Collingwood would have been able to dominate to the extent that they have. They were strong before the new clubs came and already had deep lists. 4-5 years on clubs like Richmond and Carlton (and you could argue some others) were denied access to some of the best players. Given their depth they were then still able to trade and are still today a preferred target for players wanting to leave their clubs. Take the players in the 19-22 year old group running around for these two clubs now spread them around the other clubs who would have had access to them. Last year instead of finishing 2 points from 4th with Grigg, Chaplin and Houli we may have finished comfortably top 4 after a few years of solid development into guys like e.g Treloar and Mckenzie (just picked two I don't mind almost at complete random) instead of some of the others we have picked up. Give some of those players to North and Carlton and the 3 of us may have even bought down the Hawks and Cats a peg by now.

tony_montana

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2014, 05:43:59 PM »
good post dwaino, last 4 years have been the best time to be "in the premiership window" and the worst to rebuild, has cost teams like us talent to try and close the gap on the top sides. Like you I also thought we did really well getting houli, grigg, maric etc back then, think that was the right thing to do and it helped us build a competitive culture a lot quicker at a time when our drafting and development record was diabolically bad.. Problem has been the aftermath, they are still getting games and young guys are not being given a chance to take their spots, so natural progression or improvement has just stagnated as those mature recruits have peaked and aren't improving.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2014, 05:45:58 PM »
What about freo dwayne

Or wce with a fit 22

Or port


dwaino

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2014, 05:54:15 PM »
West Coast took a dive just before GCS came in and bolstered their list. Freo still might not win anything but shows what a good new coach can do to a side. Port I have no explanation for under my theory (more of just a whim that I was talking about with a workmate rather than a theory I strongly hold) other than that's what happens when you get the right people in. Then again they completely bottomed out and managed to get access to blokes like Wingard and Wines in the years following the boy band teams raided the drafts.

tony_montana

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2014, 05:55:07 PM »
All those clubs had a much better list base to work with, simple as that

Offline RollsRoyce

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2014, 07:05:53 PM »
I know exactly how accurate I am with that comment. That's the concerning thing.  :whistle

And I too know how accurate you are with it and agree that's the concerning thing

All this wink-wink, aside stuff between you and tigs2011 is tantalising and mystifying WP. I'm assuming that the pair of you are either well placed within coterie groups, or have had some sort of role within the club and are well-versed in the politics and inner machinations of the place. If this is the case, is it possible to enlighten mug punters like myself who don't know much beyond plonking our hard-earned down and screaming our lungs out on a weekly basis on what exactly you are alluding to? Please don't interpret this as me having a go at either of you, I am merely curious. If this stuff is too tricky to be discussing on a public forum I am happy for either of you to PM me.
Cheers,
Rolls

P.S. I'm at a stage now where I have just about had a gutfull of the Tigers constantly smashing my hopes. 

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2014, 09:01:55 PM »
Apologies, shouldn't have posted what I did.

Frustration can make you do silly things  :wallywink
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Offline Tigeritis™©®

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2014, 12:03:43 AM »
Recruiting, not playing kids, game plan etc etc.


It's more than this.

Players get better at other good clubs. Players come to Richmond and we wonder what they could've been.

If the players are willing to work hard, be excellent in their commitment, increase the standards, aim higher, demand more from each other etc etc.

This club has a loser culture that applauds mediocrity. Pats losers on the back of one finals appearance. Gives a coach an extension when it isn't necessary. Persists with the same recruiter that continues to underperform.
Why do youngsters go to Geelong and get better? We all gasp and wonder how anyone missed this kid at pick forty something? 
Because that team will make the kid better more times than not. Everyone's helping that kid to achieve the high standards that club has demanded on everyone.
I don't know how many times I've heard Mooney, Ling & Harley during commentary say things like "well at the cats we just expected a player to do this/that as a norm". It was the standard. No one was "told" to fight for Gary jnr they just did it.
High standards are demanded and kids come in and know what's expected.

At Richmond they just think they are good enough.
They don't even know how to fight for a team mate.
They're happy with close enough. We are the "she"ll be right" club.
They celebrate a finals appearance like its a premiership.

We have a SOFT, loser culture. We are the egg team.
The club that keeps giving.

Offline Francois Jackson

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2014, 08:32:28 AM »
They had a better base judge you say.

Mate look at the Pies

Grundy
Frost
M Williams
Elliott

These guys slot in and are ready made footballers

They don't use the money we give them, instead they line their own pockets with them

Matty White only 10th or 12th fastest at port says it all really


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Offline RedanTiger

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2014, 01:03:50 PM »
FJ is the problem.

I cant see how you can turn over management and still have this hack on the payroll.
FJ's record (since he got some help) would look a lot better if the players he picked were given a chance.

All recruiters have stuff ups.

2009 is looking pretty good. Martin, Griffiths, Astbury. Add Grimes to that because not sure you can blame FJ for his injuries. Dea is better than Morris too if given the same chances. That year he was forced to go tall after the first pick due to the Wallace years of wanting skinny flankers.

2010 is a disgrace. I don't even care about the Conca v Heppell thing. Conca is still a solid player. Batch over Parker was always and will always be a mistake. Parker would be our captain by now.

2011 with Ellis and Elton is fine. Elton will take time. Arnot is looking solid though should have played earlier. Darrou is talented off the rookie list.

2012 we should end up with 3 x 200 gamers possibly 4. (Though I don't trust our development of a project like McIntosh)

2013 has Lennon who will be better than a lot above him. Gordon and Lloyd were perfect for what we need and are showing a bit in a poo team. I was ok with trading our 2nd pick for a back-up ruck in a crap draft until one of my favorites went at that exact pick.  :banghead

There are some issues going on in this regard though and FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking.

FJ had finally worked out the types to recruit as rookie picks. KPD's/Rucks/Small forwards and then some moron decides that we should pick up the offcuts of bottom teams. He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson for that matter. But every new player gets lumped in as his fault.

Dimma needs to get over his penchant for slow, tough players and hatred of players with flair and speed. Maybe FJ should just pick them anyway but then we all know they'd just rot in the 2's because Dimma would play Petterd or Grigg over them.

I will add he also needs to get over himself and bring some more sets of eyes in. Isn't that what we pay the FTF for?

Interesting that you have outed yourself as one of the posters who pushed Claw off another forum. You seem to be continuing your attitude here with the above half truths.

Any recruiter must be judged on results, not excuses about his resources aside from which FJ himself has chosen to limit his team to what he calls a manageable number.
He was first employed in 2005 as a part time recruiter. I have already posted on here that even as a part time recruiter he should have taken Hurn and Swallow given their records from independent judges (ie SANFL coaches, AIS selectors, State selectors and AA selectors).

The FULL list of his picks (NOT starting at 09 as you have done) show that for the period 2005 - 2009 (when Blair joined Richmond) Riewoldt, Edwards, King, Cotchin, Rance, Vickery, Martin, Griffith, Astbury, Dea and Grimes remain. 
Gone are Oakley-Nichols, Hughes, Casserley, White, Graham, Humm, Howat, P Bowden, Connors, Peterson, Collins, Kingsley, Clingan, Polak, Putt, Gourdis, Collard, Sylvester, Cartledge, Howat, McMahon, Morton, Post, Hislop, Thomson, Cousins, Nahas, Gourdis (Rookied), Browne, Gilligan, Taylor, Webberley, Nason, Farmer, Hicks, Contin, Roberts, Westoff, Polak (Rookied).

Of the players still on the list, 7 of the 11 were first or second round picks.

"FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking"
Of those picks above - all before Blair came on board after the 2009 draft - 13 of the 38 were on other clubs lists prior. Only if you ignore FJ's full record, as you have done, can a case be made that Blair is forcing FJ to pick mature players over kids.

"He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson"
I'm interested as to how you know this. I am sure that FJ has not come out publicly and bagged players we chose so therefore you must be a close friend who he talks to off-the-record about his personal/different opinions on recruiting. Or maybe you are FJ. Or maybe it's just a lie.

Offline WA Tiger

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2014, 02:46:10 PM »
Apologies, shouldn't have posted what I did.

Frustration can make you do silly things  :wallywink

How many warnings is that.. ;D
DIMMA - You will be held ACCOUNTABLE...

“We are really excited about what we have brought in. We have got great depth of players that can take us where we need to go. We are just putting some cream on the top at the moment,” he said.

"Rucks:
Shaun Hampson is the No.1 man"

Offline tigs2011

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2014, 03:30:27 PM »
FJ is the problem.

I cant see how you can turn over management and still have this hack on the payroll.
FJ's record (since he got some help) would look a lot better if the players he picked were given a chance.

All recruiters have stuff ups.

2009 is looking pretty good. Martin, Griffiths, Astbury. Add Grimes to that because not sure you can blame FJ for his injuries. Dea is better than Morris too if given the same chances. That year he was forced to go tall after the first pick due to the Wallace years of wanting skinny flankers.

2010 is a disgrace. I don't even care about the Conca v Heppell thing. Conca is still a solid player. Batch over Parker was always and will always be a mistake. Parker would be our captain by now.

2011 with Ellis and Elton is fine. Elton will take time. Arnot is looking solid though should have played earlier. Darrou is talented off the rookie list.

2012 we should end up with 3 x 200 gamers possibly 4. (Though I don't trust our development of a project like McIntosh)

2013 has Lennon who will be better than a lot above him. Gordon and Lloyd were perfect for what we need and are showing a bit in a poo team. I was ok with trading our 2nd pick for a back-up ruck in a crap draft until one of my favorites went at that exact pick.  :banghead

There are some issues going on in this regard though and FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking.

FJ had finally worked out the types to recruit as rookie picks. KPD's/Rucks/Small forwards and then some moron decides that we should pick up the offcuts of bottom teams. He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson for that matter. But every new player gets lumped in as his fault.

Dimma needs to get over his penchant for slow, tough players and hatred of players with flair and speed. Maybe FJ should just pick them anyway but then we all know they'd just rot in the 2's because Dimma would play Petterd or Grigg over them.

I will add he also needs to get over himself and bring some more sets of eyes in. Isn't that what we pay the FTF for?

Interesting that you have outed yourself as one of the posters who pushed Claw off another forum. You seem to be continuing your attitude here with the above half truths.

Any recruiter must be judged on results, not excuses about his resources aside from which FJ himself has chosen to limit his team to what he calls a manageable number.
He was first employed in 2005 as a part time recruiter. I have already posted on here that even as a part time recruiter he should have taken Hurn and Swallow given their records from independent judges (ie SANFL coaches, AIS selectors, State selectors and AA selectors).

The FULL list of his picks (NOT starting at 09 as you have done) show that for the period 2005 - 2009 (when Blair joined Richmond) Riewoldt, Edwards, King, Cotchin, Rance, Vickery, Martin, Griffith, Astbury, Dea and Grimes remain. 
Gone are Oakley-Nichols, Hughes, Casserley, White, Graham, Humm, Howat, P Bowden, Connors, Peterson, Collins, Kingsley, Clingan, Polak, Putt, Gourdis, Collard, Sylvester, Cartledge, Howat, McMahon, Morton, Post, Hislop, Thomson, Cousins, Nahas, Gourdis (Rookied), Browne, Gilligan, Taylor, Webberley, Nason, Farmer, Hicks, Contin, Roberts, Westoff, Polak (Rookied).

Of the players still on the list, 7 of the 11 were first or second round picks.

"FJ needs to stand up for himself and tell Blair that these kids are better than the duds we are picking"
Of those picks above - all before Blair came on board after the 2009 draft - 13 of the 38 were on other clubs lists prior. Only if you ignore FJ's full record, as you have done, can a case be made that Blair is forcing FJ to pick mature players over kids.

"He didn't rate Banfield or Thomas or Hampson"
I'm interested as to how you know this. I am sure that FJ has not come out publicly and bagged players we chose so therefore you must be a close friend who he talks to off-the-record about his personal/different opinions on recruiting. Or maybe you are FJ. Or maybe it's just a lie.
lol I forced claw off another forum? How laughable. I've agreed with claw plenty of times and the times I don't I'm sure he couldn't care less.

I've acknowledged that FJ needs to get over himself and bring more staff in. He's added a grand total of 1. Whoopy doo but better than nothing.

From what I had been told FJ was merely a scout and had a full time job in 2005. I'll concede to your greater knowledge on who made the picks. What a disgrace that we relied on a scout to take picks anyway but that's another story.

2006 by himself he's pulled in one of the best in the draft with his first pick and picked up skinny flankers with the rest. They all were talented. None suit the modern game.

2007 Cotch/Rance and would have been Scott selwood. Again all by himself.

2008 looks bad but he only took 2 of them and some dimwit traded the pick he was going to take sloane with for Adam Thomson.

2009 looks good

2010 a look at BF would have been better.

2011/12 looks solid and to me he seems to be identifying the right types. Whether they develop into footballers or develop Mr.Tigras famous tigeritis remains to be seen.

Not sure why you've added guys that he didn't choose on the guys who have left or how you can blame him for White bailing etc.

Blair is the one who rates each AFL player and FJ and helpers rate the juniors. New guy rates the vfl guys. I've noticed some problems with that, which are pretty obvious, such as how 3 guys aren't going to rate exactly the same way. I think FJ marks too harshly from what I can gather and Blair marks too easy. How Hampson can come up with the same score as kids like Robertson at Brisbane is beyond my comprehension when as an 18yo Robertson is a far superior player.

FJ isn't perfect and has made some massive blunders, namely 2010 and his refusal to add more help in. I also think the system we are using to rate players is flawed. I think they should rotate the 3 appraisals of the AFL guys between each of Blair, FJ and maybe the new guy?

Offline Diocletian

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2014, 03:44:47 PM »
tigs killed santa...FJ saw the whole thing.....he was hiding behind a tree....
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Offline tigs2011

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Re: Recruiting
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2014, 04:27:06 PM »
tigs killed santa...FJ saw the whole thing.....he was hiding behind a tree....
damn it. They're on to me. 


As long as they don't know about the incident with the Easter bunny I should be sweet.