Age Poll: Will Terry Wallace be coaching Richmond in 2010?

[mat073]

In my opinion TW is trying to build a team that will win us a premiership not finish 6th to 8th every year.
This takes time.
Remember the basketcase we were at the end of 2004 when we lost the last 14 games of the year.He took over a very very ordinary list.
He has been abit unlucky too.We could of snuck into the 8 in 2005 had it not been for nathan brown  breaking his leg.How close last year...how we lost the st kilda game and drew with the bulldogs is beyond me.....And those teams finished 3rd & 4th.
We have a tough start to the year.Could be 0-3. It may take time for cuz & cogs to gel with the team.However I predict a massive winning streak  midway through the year.Tigers will finish top 4
Terry will be there in 2010 and beyond

[Mr Magic]

TW has had 5 years yes but he has completely striped the list in that time and started again with youth. Other coaches have come into clubs and had players of quality to work with from the start but our cupboard was almost bare. How many other coaches have had to do the cleanout TW needed to? If you even look at the best of the players that he has kept only one of them is irreplacable (Richo) and the rest will be struggling to make the 22 this year.

Striper.
Let me start by saying I hope Wallace goes on to be a raging success. I would honestly love him to keep his job this year and for the next 5.
BUT..
At some point the proof has to be in the pudding and that is 2009, the end of Terry's very generous 5 year contract.

You talk of rebuilding.
For starters, what was Mark Graham in year 1? Promises of finals for senior players?
What was Kent Kingsley? Patrick Bowden? Julian McMahon? Even Ben Cousins? What was only 3 draft picks in 2005?
I really wanted Terry to rebuild but he's also brought his share of stopgap measures to the club as well, a few who've now moved on.
I truly believe he overestimated his abilities and the list in the first two years and only made truly tough decisions after the disastrous early rounds of 2007.

You talk of injuries possibly curbing 2009.
In 2008 we really did have a blessed run with the injury gods. In reality probably the best we have had since Terrence took over as coach, yet still with virtually all hands on deck the best we could manage was still only 9th and we beat top 8 sides 1.5 out of 11 times up or some such nonsense. Yes the team we beat in round 20 was the eventual premiers but how much can you really read into that when a team is well entrenched in the finals?

The only year you can judge him is this year because this is the first year he has a team?
You have got to be kidding me. His first 4 years indicate that he is an average game day coach who's poor at building lists and I for one do not believe that others could not have done better. We have been mediocre to poor over that period, pure and simple and Terry is as much a part of that as anyone.

I am extremely happy that Gary March has called a spade a spade and kept Wallace away from recruiting and criticised our performances as a team to date. They simply have not been good enough and if they don't improve substantially this year Terry can go back to the media where he is so comfortable.

The proof is in the pudding. No more excuses.

[Francois Jackson]

TW has had 5 years yes but he has completely striped the list in that time and started again with youth. Other coaches have come into clubs and had players of quality to work with from the start but our cupboard was almost bare. How many other coaches have had to do the cleanout TW needed to? If you even look at the best of the players that he has kept only one of them is irreplacable (Richo) and the rest will be struggling to make the 22 this year.

Striper.
Let me start by saying I hope Wallace goes on to be a raging success. I would honestly love him to keep his job this year and for the next 5.
BUT..
At some point the proof has to be in the pudding and that is 2009, the end of Terry's very generous 5 year contract.

You talk of rebuilding.
For starters, what was Mark Graham in year 1? Promises of finals for senior players?
What was Kent Kingsley? Patrick Bowden? Julian McMahon? Even Ben Cousins? What was only 3 draft picks in 2005?
I really wanted Terry to rebuild but he's also brought his share of stopgap measures to the club as well, a few who've now moved on.
I truly believe he overestimated his abilities and the list in the first two years and only made truly tough decisions after the disastrous early rounds of 2007.

You talk of injuries possibly curbing 2009.
In 2008 we really did have a blessed run with the injury gods. In reality probably the best we have had since Terrence took over as coach, yet still with virtually all hands on deck the best we could manage was still only 9th and we beat top 8 sides 1.5 out of 11 times up or some such nonsense. Yes the team we beat in round 20 was the eventual premiers but how much can you really read into that when a team is well entrenched in the finals?

The only year you can judge him is this year because this is the first year he has a team?
You have got to be kidding me. His first 4 years indicate that he is an average game day coach who's poor at building lists and I for one do not believe that others could not have done better. We have been mediocre to poor over that period, pure and simple and Terry is as much a part of that as anyone.

I am extremely happy that Gary March has called a spade a spade and kept Wallace away from recruiting and criticised our performances as a team to date. They simply have not been good enough and if they don't improve substantially this year Terry can go back to the media where he is so comfortable.

The proof is in the pudding. No more excuses.

Fantastic post.

100% correct

[Stripes]

Mr Magic - I completely agree with you regarding our 2009 performance and TW contract. I think everyone on this forum does.

What I don't agree is with the whole Graham, Kingsley, etc argument. You need experience to lead young players and we had none. Graham recruitment was a success - he was brought in for one year to help educate the young backmen and support our structure. Kingsley was a punt, the upside was huge if he played well and we got him for nothing (a bit like Cousins btw  ) but injuries stopped his progress. Regardless he was helped our young developing forwards when they played at Coburg. Patty Bowden was good as a roving backman but when Polak was brought in his age and attitude was his downfall.

So in regards to our recruitment I think you are way off the mark. If we were not rebuilding then why have we got so may players on our list who are 23 or under? And going one step further, why have we given so many of our under 23 players so much game time more than almost every other club?

One of TW greatest strengths is his game day coaching. He is very adaptable, innovative and motivating but once again you need to have the cattle to execute some strategies and to truly compete with the stronger sides. When every other team struggled, we beat Hawthorn last year because TW figured out how to break through the zone. When Adelaide was executing a mass flood that made them one of the best teams a couple of years back TW figured out a game plan to beat it. Tucky and Foley both owe their careers to TW. After over a decade of frustration and a multitude of coaches it was TW who moved Richo to the win and reinvigorated his career and gave our young forwards a chance to develop.

TW is a good coach. I just hope he can prove it in 2009.

Stripes

[mat073]

Stripes ....I agree with you 100%

TW also had the courage to pull the pin on the careers of Gasper & Andrew Kellaway.I remember there being an out cry at the time but look at our back line now.
2007 .....the year we had to have.Note our percentage that year for 3 1/2 wins was 77%.Compare to West Coast last year..4 wins 66%

There is so much upside to Richmond in 2009.If Cousins and Cogs get back to their best ..TW would of created a super team that no one saw comming.

[Ox]

Stripes ....I agree with you 100%

TW also had the courage to pull the pin on the careers of Gasper & Andrew Kellaway.I remember there being an out cry at the time but look at our back line now.

Great point and one some,no,many forget.

Gaspar in particular was a selfish sob that held our club to ransom and set a stuffen disgraceful example both on the field and even when he left by refusing to play magoos.

To think a percentage of our supporters base actually were blind to his self centered ways is frightening.

Kelleway was just hopeless and in the modern game was the second of two wacko brothers.
HTF did he last ???

Well done Terry
You get another year for having the balls to do what that suckars coach we had didn't.

[Mr Magic]

Mr Magic - I completely agree with you regarding our 2009 performance and TW contract. I think everyone on this forum does.

TW is a good coach. I just hope he can prove it in 2009.

Some salient points striper. I am not blind, Terry has made some inroads but for every good example you have put up I can think of games where he has been soundly out coached and made some baffling positional match ups but it's fruitless posting them all here.

However all the spin both for and against aside as you say we fundamentally agree.

This is Wallace's year, it's now or never and I certainly hope that you are indeed correct in your appraisal because I am far more interested in the success of the RFC than anything else.

[mat073]

Its scary to think that if Gasper and Kellaway had played in 2007 we might of won a couple more games and missed out on getting Cotch.

This is just proof that sometimes you need to take a step backwards in order to go forward.

[Gracie]

Mr Magic - I completely agree with you regarding our 2009 performance and TW contract. I think everyone on this forum does.

TW is a good coach. I just hope he can prove it in 2009.

Some salient points striper. I am not blind, Terry has made some inroads but for every good example you have put up I can think of games where he has been soundly out coached and made some baffling positional match ups but it's fruitless posting them all here.

However all the spin both for and against aside as you say we fundamentally agree.

This is Wallace's year, it's now or never and I certainly hope that you are indeed correct in your appraisal because I am far more interested in the success of the RFC than anything else.

In 2004 the list was a shambles. The club gave Wallace 5 years to fix the list with the view to having a side that could be built into consistent finals performer. I cannot remember any suggestion in 2004 that there was a condition of Wallace's contract that he must play finals in those 5years rather the key performance indicators would be the development of the players individually and as a group.

I am a little surprised at the emphasis/concentration on the "must play finals in 2009 to get a contract extension" line. What the Board should be considering first and foremost is whether Wallace has the skills to complete the development of the squad into a consistent finals performer. If he doesn't have the skills then this is his last year regardless of ladder position. If we do consider he has the skills then the question is - is he the best available to further develop the squad from other available options? Only if he is the very best option then we give him another contract and we then base the performance reviews on ladder positions

[Francois Jackson]

Mr Magic - I completely agree with you regarding our 2009 performance and TW contract. I think everyone on this forum does.

What I don't agree is with the whole Graham, Kingsley, etc argument. You need experience to lead young players and we had none. Graham recruitment was a success - he was brought in for one year to help educate the young backmen and support our structure. Kingsley was a punt, the upside was huge if he played well and we got him for nothing (a bit like Cousins btw  ) but injuries stopped his progress. Regardless he was helped our young developing forwards when they played at Coburg. Patty Bowden was good as a roving backman but when Polak was brought in his age and attitude was his downfall.

So in regards to our recruitment I think you are way off the mark. If we were not rebuilding then why have we got so may players on our list who are 23 or under? And going one step further, why have we given so many of our under 23 players so much game time more than almost every other club?

One of TW greatest strengths is his game day coaching. He is very adaptable, innovative and motivating but once again you need to have the cattle to execute some strategies and to truly compete with the stronger sides. When every other team struggled, we beat Hawthorn last year because TW figured out how to break through the zone. When Adelaide was executing a mass flood that made them one of the best teams a couple of years back TW figured out a game plan to beat it. Tucky and Foley both owe their careers to TW. After over a decade of frustration and a multitude of coaches it was TW who moved Richo to the win and reinvigorated his career and gave our young forwards a chance to develop.

TW is a good coach. I just hope he can prove it in 2009.

Stripes

How can you defend duds like Graham, Bowden and kingsley.
What YOU fail to understand is that Kingsley was punted on because TW misread our list.
i really believe he thought the list was better than it was and thought he would get us into the finasls.

Believe what u want but i think its best we lock this thread till round 22 but then again you will prob seak a 3 year ext even if we dont make the finals.

[Stripes]

At the risk of being shot down here daniel, if it was up to me and list does continue to improve yet we don't make the finals I would give TW another contract. 

I think he has rebuilt our list and deserves to have a real crack over the next couple of years proving that. If we get another coach now they will be just reaping the rewards of TW hard work.

If the players don't perform at 23+ then TW has failed and should be removed but the list is only just now starting to get the majority of our players close to that premiership age so I still don't think 2009 is a proper judgement.

The only reason the whole 2009 and finals or bust senerio has come about is because it is Tw last year on his current contract otherwise we wouldn't be applying the same pressure.

Ok, fire away....

Stripes

[Mr Magic]

At the risk of being shot down here daniel, if it was up to me and list does continue to improve yet we don't make the finals I would give TW another contract. 

Wallace thank goodness is now being kept well away from 'building our list'.

I am excited about a few of our kids coming through but I do not credit Terry for much of that.

Deledio - The result of which was a wooden spoon(Frawley 2004).

Cotchin - The same(Wallace 2007)

Moore, Tuck, Foley, McGuane, White & Thursfield have all progressed/developed well and that's a positive but I still think there are a heap of young players with question marks over how they have progressed under Wallace's eye.

Those being Tambling, Polo, Meyer, Schulz, Hughes, Rodan, Pattison, JoN, Casserly, Edwards, Connors, Raines all who are struggling still at various levels, unproven or gone.

We still have 6 players over 30 who are still integral to our team as witnessed by 5 of them finishing in our top ten in the B&F count last year. Who will step up when they go in the near future?

I'll admit I am impressed with how Wallace has redeveloped our defence by moving on the likes of Kellaway, Chaffey & Gaspar and bringing in McGuane, Moore & Thursfield. That seems to be working well although we still haven't unearthed a reliable small defender.

I am not so impressed with how the rebuild of our forward line is progressing, nor our ruck division. Although at least Cameron has looked to finally rectify Wallace's fixation with small running players by bringing on Vickery and Post last year. These guys will take time.

Wallace barely gets a pass mark with what little he has achieved over the past 4 years.
I think most people could have 'rebuilt the list' at least as well, it's not all that impressive at all IMO.
I am still nowhere near as confident as some that our future is in great shape because of what Terry Wallace has brought to Tigerland.

[Hellenic Tiger]

Mr Magic and Stripes I love reading both of your posts.

Excellent arguments by both and obviously both very learned football viewpoints when it comes to the Tiges but I agree with MM when it comes to defending the likes of recruiting Graham??? We could have plyed another kid there possibly Thursfield from the start of the year rather than blooding him in rd 14 against the Swans.

Bowden Kingsley?? Again a stopgap measure to fill a hole in the dam wall that was ready to burst as it did in 2007.

Terry is on his last chance. He knows it and it is football's worst kept secret. No finals in 2009 means no job in 2010 and the fruits of his "labours" in his first 3 seasons at the club will come home to roost should we finish below 8th come round 22.

In my opinion he has had his chance and it will be time to move on. If it is the good fortune of an incumbent coach beyond 2009 to profit from our rebuild post 2007 then so be it. I want to see the the Tigers successful and I don't care who is coach. It's not personal against Terry or anybody else. Success for RFC is what I want to experience.

[Stripes]

I always think of the journey Mark Thompson took as mimicing TW coaching voyage through no accident of course. I'm sure everyone is well versed on the history of the rebuilding Geelong took during the 7 years Thompson had and how close he came to being sacked over the journey but most notably the year before they won the flag. Now why I'm under no illusions that we will win the GF within the next 2 years, the rebirth process of the club has definite parrallels because, of course, TW used the Geelong process as a model to first claim the Tiger coaching position and then attempt to reform the list.

No to say that TW is being 'kept away from building our list' would be a bit of a stretch and even a tad niave IMHO. TW did not have as big of a say, I'll grant you, during last draft but all senior coaches have a big imput into recruitment. Whatever happens from this point on TW has been intricial to the development of the list and will take some of the glory and all of the blame depending on the outcome.

Sorry I'm going to have to cut my argument off a bit short. I'll finish it off later this evening.

Regardless TW should not be evaluated on teams win/loss ratio over the last 4 years givn the state of the list. What he should be marked on is this year and beyond when the first group he recruited are now 'at age' otherwise you are just marking the deficencies of our past coaches and recruitment.

Stripes

[big tone]

Mr Majic, congratulations on your last couple of posts and i agree 1000% with you.

As for you Stripes, maybe it's you that is a "tad niave!" Your really poor excuses for his drafting of the players mentioned are not only ridiculous but totally lame! I respect your passion for what TW has done but to try and justify some of his drafting is completely (imo) not on!

As for your comment on the evaluation of TW i totally disagree again, he has the worst win/loss ratio (39%) over the last 4 years than any current AFL coach. (not including Dean Bailey, but i think we should give him a little more time to judge him) I know you said stuff about lists and age groups but please TRY and take off those rose coloured glasses just for a minute and see "If it looks like a pig, sounds like a pig, acts like pig, don’t be mistaking, it is a pig!."

Terry Wallace -oink oink!!