Author Topic: Caro thinks Terry is safe  (Read 5080 times)

Offline Tiger Spirit

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2008, 03:23:56 PM »
There's been a common trend at Richmond of a new coach coming in and achieving significant improvement in his first year before the side falls away again in subsequent seasons and then another new coach brought in and the same thing is repeated while the players escape their responsibility for poor performances. We are poor because our senior players aren't up to it and need to be replaced by a new core group. That core group is still too young no matter who the coach is.

Who should take responsibility for that?  The players?  Who’s in charge here?

Nothing ever changes at Richmond coz nothing ever changes.

Think I posted something back in about 2004/2005 that the focus needed to be taken away from the senior players, so that the culture amongst them could change.

Four years later we’re still on about the same things that supporters were harping on way even before then.

The people keep changing at RFC, but nothing else it seems.

When TW came into the footy club he failed to acknowledge the task he had to re-build the list, and what he was dealing with, in terms of the culture, because he continued to play the same group of players (many that most people knew weren’t going to take us anywhere) we had before, and installed senior players as our leaders.

The main reasoning for playing experienced players was because he thought we could create a winning mentality whilst re-building the list.

How did he figure that we were suddenly gonna be world beaters with the same group of players that had failed previously?  Did he have some magic tricks up his sleeve or he knew how to get something different out of those players that no one else had?  History says ‘no’ to all of the above.

I agree, if the young players simply aren’t ready, then don’t play them.  Why then, in 2007, when there’s no alternative, we give the young players a go out of necessity and suddenly they’re ready enough to get a game under those circumstances, ready or not.

When he left the Bulldogs, their supporters lamented that he didn’t bring through the young players.  Why not?  Because all he sees is what is on the surface with players.  If he can literally see the ability a player has, i.e. skill, pace, etc, then that convinces him of a player’s ability and worth to the team.  But if he doesn’t know a player, and can’t see his ability ‘right now’, he ain’t interested.  Potential doesn’t exist, it’s what a player can do now.

Basically, I believe he sees the superficial in a player, and not what he’s actually made of, which you can’t see.

Unless he has those around him with that ability, he can be the best strategist, list manager and whatever else he likes, he ain’t taking us nowhere, no matter how long he’s at the club.

When he, or someone, puts faith in the players, real faith, then I’ll believe he’s worth sticking with.

Until then, I have way more reasons why I have no faith in him as a coach, unless he has a major overhaul.
Everything that is done in this world is done by hope.  --Martin Luther

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2008, 05:48:28 PM »
1. Do you think Grant Thomas can coach
2.if Terry Wallace was to walk away or whatever would you have Grant Thomas coach the Tigers & the reason if yes or no
3. Do you think Thomas could make them play for him seeing he gets close to his players
1.  No.  He can motivate but he can't coach.
2.  No.  See above.  May as well get Northey back if we want a motivator that can't coach.
3.  Yes.  But no more than I believe Wallace has now.  In all the cheers and tears that our last 3 seasons under him has produced I have not seen or heard any evidence or rumours from the players of anything but 100% behind him and his staff.  In fact, during our darkest hours last season there was not one peep of discontent or lack of trust, rather the contrary, and that's one of the main reasons I believe this current football department and playing list will improve rapidly and become successful in the next few years.

There was discontent within the group, with the senior group questioning the amount of "" meetings "" which has been adjusted this season, along with the amount of time that Wallet spends on the track, this has been adjusted as well.
Players were extremely frustrated at years end

Offline Smokey

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2008, 08:21:14 PM »
There was discontent within the group, with the senior group questioning the amount of "" meetings "" which has been adjusted this season, along with the amount of time that Wallet spends on the track, this has been adjusted as well.
Players were extremely frustrated at years end
How fantastic that the playing group felt confident in it's place to raise the issues and the football department were mature and professional enough to listen and make changes where they saw fit.  I'm willing to bet that the significant part of the players frustration was based around the knowledge that they weren't as bad as the results and perceptions indicated.  But I could be wrong - I don't have an independent observer feeding me info - just maturity and experience.

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2008, 08:36:35 PM »
There was discontent within the group, with the senior group questioning the amount of "" meetings "" which has been adjusted this season, along with the amount of time that Wallet spends on the track, this has been adjusted as well.
Players were extremely frustrated at years end
How fantastic that the playing group felt confident in it's place to raise the issues and the football department were mature and professional enough to listen and make changes where they saw fit.  I'm willing to bet that the significant part of the players frustration was based around the knowledge that they weren't as bad as the results and perceptions indicated.  But I could be wrong - I don't have an independent observer feeding me info - just maturity and experience.

Mate, can only tell you what actually happened

1965

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2008, 08:54:16 PM »
There was discontent within the group, with the senior group questioning the amount of "" meetings "" which has been adjusted this season, along with the amount of time that Wallet spends on the track, this has been adjusted as well.
Players were extremely frustrated at years end
How fantastic that the playing group felt confident in it's place to raise the issues and the football department were mature and professional enough to listen and make changes where they saw fit.  I'm willing to bet that the significant part of the players frustration was based around the knowledge that they weren't as bad as the results and perceptions indicated.  But I could be wrong - I don't have an independent observer feeding me info - just maturity and experience.

Mate, can only tell you what actually happened

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Offline rogerd3

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2008, 12:20:02 AM »
1. Do you think Grant Thomas can coach
2.if Terry Wallace was to walk away or whatever would you have Grant Thomas coach the Tigers & the reason if yes or no
3. Do you think Thomas could make them play for him seeing he gets close to his players
1.  No.  He can motivate but he can't coach.
2.  No.  See above.  May as well get Northey back if we want a motivator that can't coach.
3.  Yes.  But no more than I believe Wallace has now.  In all the cheers and tears that our last 3 seasons under him has produced I have not seen or heard any evidence or rumours from the players of anything but 100% behind him and his staff.  In fact, during our darkest hours last season there was not one peep of discontent or lack of trust, rather the contrary, and that's one of the main reasons I believe this current football department and playing list will improve rapidly and become successful in the next few years.

There was discontent within the group, with the senior group questioning the amount of "" meetings "" which has been adjusted this season, along with the amount of time that Wallet spends on the track, this has been adjusted as well.
Players were extremely frustrated at years end



Seems the club is leaking again Jackstar ;)...and perhaps we could have those names of the senior players.
I would only like to add that your above suggestion is only partially true. :shh, this is stuff that i believe was probably told to you in confidence, perhaps thats as far as it should have gone..dont be fooled for a minute that we are the only club that deals with these situations.
Its amazing how sometimes situations within a sporting club can become distorted by the time it has gone through 3/4 people.
I know for a fact that there are posters on another RFC forum that are actively involved in the club that post and read what is posted, and have a giggle about how tall the stories sometimes become.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2008, 01:11:25 AM »
There's been a common trend at Richmond of a new coach coming in and achieving significant improvement in his first year before the side falls away again in subsequent seasons and then another new coach brought in and the same thing is repeated while the players escape their responsibility for poor performances. We are poor because our senior players aren't up to it and need to be replaced by a new core group. That core group is still too young no matter who the coach is.

Who should take responsibility for that?  The players?  Who’s in charge here?

Nothing ever changes at Richmond coz nothing ever changes.

Think I posted something back in about 2004/2005 that the focus needed to be taken away from the senior players, so that the culture amongst them could change.

Four years later we’re still on about the same things that supporters were harping on way even before then.

The people keep changing at RFC, but nothing else it seems.

When TW came into the footy club he failed to acknowledge the task he had to re-build the list, and what he was dealing with, in terms of the culture, because he continued to play the same group of players (many that most people knew weren’t going to take us anywhere) we had before, and installed senior players as our leaders.

The main reasoning for playing experienced players was because he thought we could create a winning mentality whilst re-building the list.

How did he figure that we were suddenly gonna be world beaters with the same group of players that had failed previously?  Did he have some magic tricks up his sleeve or he knew how to get something different out of those players that no one else had?  History says ‘no’ to all of the above.

I agree, if the young players simply aren’t ready, then don’t play them.  Why then, in 2007, when there’s no alternative, we give the young players a go out of necessity and suddenly they’re ready enough to get a game under those circumstances, ready or not.
I think politics and our dire financial situation at the time had a lot to do with decisions made when Terry first arrived. When you've made a $2m loss, up to $5m in debt and are bleeding dry then the first thing the club had to do was cut back hard on expenditure and sell the club to boost revenue. Also another 2004 disaster in 2005 would have destroyed any chance of stability at board level with Casey still President. I agree though we paid at the 2005 draft table for Browny's superstar form in the first 9 rounds of 2005. In any case I think people still underestimate the basket case state our list was in at the end of 2004. 27 2004-Tigers gone since then and more still to go. We've had to totally start again with our list.   

32: Campbell
31: D.Kellaway, Rogers
30: Stafford
29: Richo, A.Kellaway
28: Gaspar, Marsh
-------------------------
27: Blumfield, Chaffey
26: J.Bowden, Brown, Johnson, Fleming, Fletcher, Houlihan
25: Tivendale, Hilton
24: Hall, Morrison, Nicholls, Ottens
23: Tuck, Fiora, Dragga#
22: Coughlan, Hyde, Newman, Pettifer, Weller, Zantuck
-------------------------
21: Krakouer, Rodan
20: Moore#
19: Foley#, Schulz, Hartigan, Roach
18: Raines, Jackson, Archibald, Gilmour

When he left the Bulldogs, their supporters lamented that he didn’t bring through the young players.  Why not?  Because all he sees is what is on the surface with players.  If he can literally see the ability a player has, i.e. skill, pace, etc, then that convinces him of a player’s ability and worth to the team.  But if he doesn’t know a player, and can’t see his ability ‘right now’, he ain’t interested.  Potential doesn’t exist, it’s what a player can do now.
They lamented more the lack of KPPs rather than young players. They also didn't like Wallace "walking-out". Plough would argue he left because the dogs cut back footy department resources.

Pre-Wallace dogs still playing AFL:
Johnson
West

Wallace doggie draftees still playing AFL: (drafts 1997-2001. Wallace left at the end of 2002)
Boyd            (rookie, 2001)
Cross           (pick 56, 2000)
Eagleton       (trade, 1999)
Giansiracusa (pick 32, 1999)
Gilbee          (pick 43, 1999)
Hahn           (pick 37, 1999)
Hargrave     (pick 66, 1999)
Harris-Lake  (pick 71, 2001)
Murphy       (pick 13, 1999)
Skipper       (pick 70, 2000)

Birss           (pick 26, 2000)
McMahon     (pick 10, 2000)

Basically, I believe he sees the superficial in a player, and not what he’s actually made of, which you can’t see.

Unless he has those around him with that ability, he can be the best strategist, list manager and whatever else he likes, he ain’t taking us nowhere, no matter how long he’s at the club.

When he, or someone, puts faith in the players, real faith, then I’ll believe he’s worth sticking with.

Until then, I have way more reasons why I have no faith in him as a coach, unless he has a major overhaul.

I see that as something the club will judge in 2009. Given that 80% of the list would have been turned over (taking into account more changes at the end of this year) the question that will be asked is - is Plough the coach to take this young group forward and up the ladder beyond 2009.
All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be - Pink Floyd

Offline tigerfan1961

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2008, 02:44:11 PM »
the rfc is that stupid that maybe she is right and terry and greg are safe.

u can talk about rebuilding all you like, the fact remains he has changed nothing since he arrived.
if he was after youth, what the hell are these old duds like tivers still on the list and why did he pick up jordy and not a 18 year old. i hate repeating the same old lines but when the spin doctor is concerned, what choice do i have.
Miller and wallace have brough this club to its worst position on the field since the 80's, thats a fact
Come on mate- no changes?????????? Have a real good look at the list circa 2003 and compare it to now. Rather have Hilton, Houlihan, Fleming , Dragisevic etc etc?? We have also changed the recruiting staff, as well as many other off field positions. You can say what you like but the list turnover has been huge and before you say it, yes some of the recruiting both in type of player and ability has been debatable but you cannot say he has changed nothing. Also, you still have a lot of very young players on the list yet to mature.

Tivendale always gets singled out but I tell you one thing, he was more than worthy of a spot in our best 22 last year, and probably still is. He had a good year and deserved at least another.

Little Jackie

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2008, 04:17:14 PM »
1. Do you think Grant Thomas can coach
2.if Terry Wallace was to walk away or whatever would you have Grant Thomas coach the Tigers & the reason if yes or no
3. Do you think Thomas could make them play for him seeing he gets close to his players
1.  No.  He can motivate but he can't coach.
2.  No.  See above.  May as well get Northey back if we want a motivator that can't coach.
3.  Yes.  But no more than I believe Wallace has now.  In all the cheers and tears that our last 3 seasons under him has produced I have not seen or heard any evidence or rumours from the players of anything but 100% behind him and his staff.  In fact, during our darkest hours last season there was not one peep of discontent or lack of trust, rather the contrary, and that's one of the main reasons I believe this current football department and playing list will improve rapidly and become successful in the next few years.

There was discontent within the group, with the senior group questioning the amount of "" meetings "" which has been adjusted this season, along with the amount of time that Wallet spends on the track, this has been adjusted as well.
Players were extremely frustrated at years end



Seems the club is leaking again Jackstar ;)...and perhaps we could have those names of the senior players.
I would only like to add that your above suggestion is only partially true. :shh, this is stuff that i believe was probably told to you in confidence, perhaps thats as far as it should have gone..dont be fooled for a minute that we are the only club that deals with these situations.
Its amazing how sometimes situations within a sporting club can become distorted by the time it has gone through 3/4 people.
I know for a fact that there are posters on another RFC forum that are actively involved in the club that post and read what is posted, and have a giggle about how tall the stories sometimes become.

It was actually quoted in the Herald Sun during October inregards to RFC review of year.  The senior players wanted less meetings and more of Wallet on the track. You will find this has been rectified :shh

Offline Infamy

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2008, 06:37:58 PM »
i really dont think the players play for wallace. we need someone tough like a mckenna. someone from that malthouse, worsfold mentality
McKenna has been passed over for pretty much every single senior coaching role for the past 2-3 years, doesn't that make you think that picking up a coach no one else wanted may not be such a good idea?

Offline Infamy

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2008, 06:41:44 PM »
It was actually quoted in the Herald Sun during October inregards to RFC review of year.  The senior players wanted less meetings and more of Wallet on the track. You will find this has been rectified :shh
You've taken a bit of artistic license with what was written. It wasn't that Wallace wasn't spending time on the track, he was there for every session. They just requested more hands-on time from him personally rather than delegating out sessions and drills with the assistant coaches.

Little Jackie

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2008, 06:54:54 PM »
It was actually quoted in the Herald Sun during October inregards to RFC review of year.  The senior players wanted less meetings and more of Wallet on the track. You will find this has been rectified :shh
You've taken a bit of artistic license with what was written. It wasn't that Wallace wasn't spending time on the track, he was there for every session. They just requested more hands-on time from him personally rather than delegating out sessions and drills with the assistant coaches.

Sorry, more of Wallet taking the drills, is that better ::)

Online Francois Jackson

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2008, 07:07:22 PM »
the rfc is that stupid that maybe she is right and terry and greg are safe.

u can talk about rebuilding all you like, the fact remains he has changed nothing since he arrived.
if he was after youth, what the hell are these old duds like tivers still on the list and why did he pick up jordy and not a 18 year old. i hate repeating the same old lines but when the spin doctor is concerned, what choice do i have.
Miller and wallace have brough this club to its worst position on the field since the 80's, thats a fact
Come on mate- no changes?????????? Have a real good look at the list circa 2003 and compare it to now. Rather have Hilton, Houlihan, Fleming , Dragisevic etc etc?? We have also changed the recruiting staff, as well as many other off field positions. You can say what you like but the list turnover has been huge and before you say it, yes some of the recruiting both in type of player and ability has been debatable but you cannot say he has changed nothing. Also, you still have a lot of very young players on the list yet to mature.

Tivendale always gets singled out but I tell you one thing, he was more than worthy of a spot in our best 22 last year, and probably still is. He had a good year and deserved at least another.

well thats the mentality that will keep us at the bottom for years to come.
tivers is not in our best 22. nice guy if wallace was so focused on our future guys like him and hyde should have been long gone.
and no wallace has not changed anything. we have still have no ticker and no skills so you tell me whats changed??
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Offline Infamy

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2008, 07:21:39 PM »
It was actually quoted in the Herald Sun during October inregards to RFC review of year.  The senior players wanted less meetings and more of Wallet on the track. You will find this has been rectified :shh
You've taken a bit of artistic license with what was written. It wasn't that Wallace wasn't spending time on the track, he was there for every session. They just requested more hands-on time from him personally rather than delegating out sessions and drills with the assistant coaches.

Sorry, more of Wallet taking the drills, is that better ::)
Well I fail to see how that's such a big deal. You say the players don't want to play for Wallace, yet they want him more involved at training. Clearly they have respect for him if they want him to spend more time coaching them day to day.

Little Jackie

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Re: Caro thinks Terry is safe
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2008, 07:30:09 PM »
It was actually quoted in the Herald Sun during October inregards to RFC review of year.  The senior players wanted less meetings and more of Wallet on the track. You will find this has been rectified :shh
You've taken a bit of artistic license with what was written. It wasn't that Wallace wasn't spending time on the track, he was there for every session. They just requested more hands-on time from him personally rather than delegating out sessions and drills with the assistant coaches.

Sorry, more of Wallet taking the drills, is that better ::)
Well I fail to see how that's such a big deal. You say the players don't want to play for Wallace, yet they want him more involved at training. Clearly they have respect for him if they want him to spend more time coaching them day to day.

Put it this way, you dont have to be a genius to know that the players have problems understanding Wallets game plan, then again who wouldnt  ::)