IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]

[mightytiges]

i actually believe that our needs are quite pointed in terms of a dynamic FF..we are winning plenty of footy for little reward...imagine if we had roughead at FF...there's a few that look as they might be struggling at the level with questions looming over polo but rance will take him over...Tanking will cost us millions in falling gate receipts and memberships..Not sure I see any advantages in taking us to the brink    then again spose we could work our way to 5 picks in top 20 once again to really set ourselves up like we did in 2005, that worked ???

We are 1-7 anyway so it's not much of stretch to be 4-18 on current form  . Memberships are already in the kitty this year and with a fresh start with a new coach and a new crop of top draftees our supporters should stick by the club as they have for the past 3 decades. Our membership did go up after each of our past two spoons.

The philosophy was right having 5 picks in the top 20. We didn't have the recruiting personnel and resources at the time to make the most of it. We also this time around have a young U23 core already in place to add to and build around. We won't be starting from scratch as we did in 2004 needing to clean out the whole list. I agree bj that we lack big key forwards to straighten us up to get reward for our forward line entries. Roughead was pick 2 remember. We also still need another quality midfielder or two but the major deficiency in the side is the lack of big key forwards.

[Smokey]

.... so fighting out the rest of the season would be counter productive IMHO.

I disagree Stripes.  That only breeds and reinforces the same losing culture that got us here in the first place.  Would much rather they spent the rest of the season learning (as St Kilda have with the same losing culture list they have had for a few years) that attack, pressure and teamwork produce the goods.  Learn that skill for the rest of the season, win as many games as they can, and come back in 2010 much richer in the knowledge of what it actually takes to succeed.  Tanking for lower draft picks is only a placebo to satisfy the emotional demands of supporters.

[Tigermonk]

.... so fighting out the rest of the season would be counter productive IMHO.

I disagree Stripes.  That only breeds and reinforces the same losing culture that got us here in the first place.  Would much rather they spent the rest of the season learning (as St Kilda have with the same losing culture list they have had for a few years) that attack, pressure and teamwork produce the goods.  Learn that skill for the rest of the season, win as many games as they can, and come back in 2010 much richer in the knowledge of what it actually takes to succeed.  Tanking for lower draft picks is only a placebo to satisfy the emotional demands of supporters.

wise old man Smokey   

[Stripes]

.... so fighting out the rest of the season would be counter productive IMHO.

I disagree Stripes.  That only breeds and reinforces the same losing culture that got us here in the first place.  Would much rather they spent the rest of the season learning (as St Kilda have with the same losing culture list they have had for a few years) that attack, pressure and teamwork produce the goods.  Learn that skill for the rest of the season, win as many games as they can, and come back in 2010 much richer in the knowledge of what it actually takes to succeed.  Tanking for lower draft picks is only a placebo to satisfy the emotional demands of supporters.

Hasn't hurt Carlton this year.....

[Smokey]

.... so fighting out the rest of the season would be counter productive IMHO.

I disagree Stripes.  That only breeds and reinforces the same losing culture that got us here in the first place.  Would much rather they spent the rest of the season learning (as St Kilda have with the same losing culture list they have had for a few years) that attack, pressure and teamwork produce the goods.  Learn that skill for the rest of the season, win as many games as they can, and come back in 2010 much richer in the knowledge of what it actually takes to succeed.  Tanking for lower draft picks is only a placebo to satisfy the emotional demands of supporters.

Hasn't hurt Carlton this year.....

They were already going to be much improved, regardless of the year they tanked.  Their improvement has come from the years at the bottom, mainly because of their salary cap cheating - they weren't tanking then - only the one year of Pagan's sacking - that got them Kruezer and he hasn't been the difference.

[Stripes]

They were already going to be much improved, regardless of the year they tanked.  Their improvement has come from the years at the bottom, mainly because of their salary cap cheating - they weren't tanking then - only the one year of Pagan's sacking - that got them Kruezer and he hasn't been the difference.

Actually that got them Kruezer and Judd and he is a big part of their on field improvement. Murphy and Gibbs were handy too plus the other high picks they recieved from finishing low.

If we bottom out again we can fill any void left by our senior players with quality youth to top up much like what the Hawks did with Franklin, Roughhead and Sewell.

Bottoming out hasn't hurt the Hawks chances of a premiership either...

Stripes

[Smokey]

Actually that got them Kruezer and Judd and he is a big part of their on field improvement.

Tanking only got them 1 extra pick - they were already going to finish low - so it didn't get them both Kruezer and Judd.

 Murphy and Gibbs were handy too plus the other high picks they recieved from finishing low.

If we bottom out again we can fill any void left by our senior players with quality youth to top up much like what the Hawks did with Franklin, Roughhead and Sewell.

Bottoming out hasn't hurt the Hawks chances of a premiership either...

Stripes

But in both examples above they finished low because they were no good - they didn't tank.  They didn't have to risk the downside of tanking - the reinforcement that losing is the way to success.  If we finish on the bottom this year because we are no good then great - we get a high pick.  But I don't believe we are anywhere near as bad as what the results and ladder currently show and that tanking will have a far worse long term negative impact on our list.  Bloody hell, if we come to each game for the rest of the season with the same attacking and pressuring attitude that we did last week then what a platform for next year!  We showed last year that when we believe, we are a good side - we now need to reinforce the learning that ability alone is not enough - you need the attitude to go with it if you want to be really successful.  Tanking destroys everything that is based on and maybe, only maybe, delivers a benefit.  Who is to say our pick #6 won't be a better pick than our pick #2?

[Ramps]

Its not about the early pick- whether its 2 or 6, its about getting the priority at the start of the 2nd round. Last time we had 3 picks inside 20 we got Cotchin and Rance and we had a chance for Selwood or the kid that footscray got- we messed up and traded it for McMahon lol.... we can get 3 very good players if we tank and we need as many as we can get.

[Smokey]

Its not about the early pick- whether its 2 or 6, its about getting the priority at the start of the 2nd round. Last time we had 3 picks inside 20 we got Cotchin and Rance and we had a chance for Selwood or the kid that footscray got- we messed up and traded it for McMahon lol.... we can get 3 very good players if we tank and we need as many as we can get.

We will agree to disagree on this Ramps.  I don't think the risk is worth the return.  You don't teach a kid anything by not trying to win.

[Gracie]

Tanking only got them 1 extra pick - they were already going to finish low - so it didn't get them both Kruezer and Judd.



Who is to say our pick #6 won't be a better pick than our pick #2?

You are right it did get them an extra pick. But actually tanking did get them Krezer and Judd. If they had not of tanked to finish 2nd lst they would have lost the extra pick at the top of the draft and they would have lost the opportunity to get Kruezer because their pick would have been lower than 1 or 3.

And yes in the same vein pick 6 might work out better than pick 2 but finishing the season at 16th or 15th position with less than 16.5 points will see an extra pick in the top 20 without having to trade.

Picks 2 18 and 20 will work out better on average than picks 6 and 22

[Judge Roughneck]

Picks 2 18 and 20 will work out better on average than picks 6 and 22

you dont say ?

[Ox]

lol@ Tanking.

Sh it attitude.

[Chuck17]

You don't teach a kid anything by not trying to win.

Not only that how do you get a player like Cuz to tank.  Probably the only way is not to play him which would go down real well.

[Smokey]

You are right it did get them an extra pick. But actually tanking did get them Krezer and Judd.   If they had not of tanked to finish 2nd lst they would have lost the extra pick at the top of the draft and they would have lost the opportunity to get Kruezer because their pick would have been lower than 1 or 3.

They would have got either of Judd or Kruezer without tanking.  They were already going to finish in the bottom 3 which was always going to get them 2 picks in the top 20.  That was always going to get them Judd at the least.  He was always going to Carlton regardless of what posturing the Eagles were doing re: trading picks.  Tanking only got them 1 extra player and if you think that Kruezer has made any significant difference to that side and it's current position then I strongly disagree.

And yes in the same vein pick 6 might work out better than pick 2 but finishing the season at 16th or 15th position with less than 16.5 points will see an extra pick in the top 20 without having to trade.

Picks 2 18 and 20 will work out better on average than picks 6 and 22
 

Again, I disagree.  The exact science that drafting isn't will always be swayed by a hundred different factors, not the least being plain old luck.  Learning how to win with a high pressure, positive attacking attitude is a given, a known, a no risk no brainer.  Just ask any Geelong or Hawthorn or St Kilda supporter.  Pinning our hopes on 1 more high draft pick is to repeat the messiah folly we have done so in such spectacularly unsuccessful fashion for the past 27 years.

[Stripes]

I don't think you can make a player tank but you can make an administration and a coach tank. If we rested Lids (TT would love this idea), Tuck, Simmonds, Gus, Moore etc and replaced them with youth - ie Gilligan, Vickery, Post, Putt, Browne, Hislop, Thomson, Silvester etc then we will more than likely lose. You won't even have to play them all at once just a few in important positions ie ruck, FB, midfield and FF.

Gaining high draft picks isn't a garrantee to obtaining great players but it sure helps! You get first, second etc pick of all the players but more importantly, you gain more early choices and better choices all the way throught he draft. Therefore you have a number of players that have the potential to develop rather than just a few.

The winning culture argument doesn't cut it with me. Players will always try to win. If they become disheartened for a season they don't reamin so for the rest of their careers especially with a new coach. If we do tank play the youth, then I would expect them to still try and win but I would also expect us to try and secure early picks in the last compromised draft in the next umpteen years.

Last chance to top up and give us a few addition quality players to give us the edge.

Stripes