IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]

[Gracie]

You don't teach a kid anything by not trying to win.

Not only that how do you get a player like Cuz to tank.  Probably the only way is not to play him which would go down real well.

But you can send him for surgery on a broken hand mayb.........

[Smokey]

The winning culture argument doesn't cut it with me. Players will always try to win.

Stripes

I'm not advocating the need to seek a winning 'culture' as such - that will come naturally through sustained success.  I am advocating the importance of 'learning to win successfully'.  We have talent, we are young but we have no idea of what it takes to win and win and win.  We won games late last year without seeing or learning the need to bring a hard, attacking, pressuring attitude to every game - we basically won on sheer talent alone.  This year, when pressured, that has been shown to be not enough.  Tanking by only playing kids, out of position etc etc does not teach or reinforce this learning, nor does it teach kids that a position in the 22 is very hard to earn and when earnt is even harder to keep - it should be cherished.  Dropping and promoting players willy nilly to chase the pot of gold at the end of the draft rainbow will only prove one thing - that the pot is filled with fool's gold.

[Stripes]

 Dropping and promoting players willy nilly to chase the pot of gold at the end of the draft rainbow will only prove one thing - that the pot is filled with fool's gold.

I'll bow to your superior poetic skills smokey and agree to disagree. I want success as much as you do but I just think that a few wins here and there will make little difference either way this year where finishing down the bottom of the ladder may reap us many rewards at the end of rainbow in the future 

Stripes

[Smokey]

 Dropping and promoting players willy nilly to chase the pot of gold at the end of the draft rainbow will only prove one thing - that the pot is filled with fool's gold.

I'll bow to your superior poetic skills smokey and agree to disagree.

   I don't actually know where I plucked that one from.   

[blaisee]

its not really tanking is it, its just good management for the future.


Simmons Brown Johnson Bowden, should all be played at coburg and only elevated on superb form.
Simmonds should be dropped and Bowdens effort on Tredrea was just terrible last week, he should go too.

Richo whould be put on ice for next year.

The problem at full forward should be solved in the following way


Gourdis, Vickery, Post, Hughes, Putt should all get a shot at playing the position, they will probably lose most contests but it will fastrack their development

Browne should come in for Simmons

Connors Edwards Hislop Thompson should be blooded

Just play the kids and retire the veterans, or send injured players into surgery straight away. The fact that Moore has not been replaced by Thirsty is just Baffling, as he is clearly injured, and cannot perform at senior level.

If we win with the kids in great, if we lose and they show something ( IE Nahas Cotch and Collins against Port ) even better, plus we get the benefit of players of the like of Rance, Ward, Polo coming through our club come draft time.

The worst thing that could happen this year is we win a few meaningless games and finish 10th. Its pointless

[DallasCrane]

its not really tanking is it, its just good management for the future.

Spot on Blaisee. It's not what you do, it's how you say you are doing it.

I have to agree with everything in Blaisee's post. There is no use persisting with 30+yo's. There is no use finishing 10th, and we would be lucky if we did that. Yes there is pain, and there is a need to breed a winning culture at the club, but it can't be worse than the pain of this earlier this year. And I'd like to see a 'good footy' culture, or as Smokey puts it, a 'sustained success' culture at a long term perspective, rather than scrounge the odd win this year. We really need the extra cream that comes in the top 2 of a draft. (not to mention wiser lower order picks)

Time for some 'good management' of the club this year I say.

[Judge Roughneck]

its not really tanking is it, its just good management for the future.


Simmons Brown Johnson Bowden, should all be played at coburg and only elevated on superb form.
Simmonds should be dropped and Bowdens effort on Tredrea was just terrible last week, he should go too.

Richo whould be put on ice for next year.

The problem at full forward should be solved in the following way


Gourdis, Vickery, Post, Hughes, Putt should all get a shot at playing the position, they will probably lose most contests but it will fastrack their development

Browne should come in for Simmons

Connors Edwards Hislop Thompson should be blooded

Just play the kids and retire the veterans, or send injured players into surgery straight away. The fact that Moore has not been replaced by Thirsty is just Baffling, as he is clearly injured, and cannot perform at senior level.

If we win with the kids in great, if we lose and they show something ( IE Nahas Cotch and Collins against Port ) even better, plus we get the benefit of players of the like of Rance, Ward, Polo coming through our club come draft time.

The worst thing that could happen this year is we win a few meaningless games and finish 10th. Its pointless

amen 

[Smokey]

You are right it did get them an extra pick. But actually tanking did get them Krezer and Judd. If they had not of tanked to finish 2nd lst they would have lost the extra pick at the top of the draft and they would have lost the opportunity to get Kruezer because their pick would have been lower than 1 or 3.

One more thing with the Kruezer/Judd deal Gracie.  Carlton also lost a #4 pick KPP in that deal so in tanking all they really managed to do was replace Kennedy with Kruezer.  They might look back and say we got it right but it is a very, very risky strategy if you ask me and certainly not worth the effort of tanking.  The real winners in the Carlton tanking were West Coast.

[Francois Jackson]

You are right it did get them an extra pick. But actually tanking did get them Krezer and Judd. If they had not of tanked to finish 2nd lst they would have lost the extra pick at the top of the draft and they would have lost the opportunity to get Kruezer because their pick would have been lower than 1 or 3.

One more thing with the Kruezer/Judd deal Gracie.  Carlton also lost a #4 pick KPP in that deal so in tanking all they really managed to do was replace Kennedy with Kruezer.  They might look back and say we got it right but it is a very, very risky strategy if you ask me and certainly not worth the effort of tanking.  The real winners in the Carlton tanking were West Coast.

Kruzer is the next Dean Cox.

The eagles did better out of that deal.  No worries!!

They needed a ruckman and they got one. Kennedy is nothing compared to Kruzer

[Judge Roughneck]

You are right it did get them an extra pick. But actually tanking did get them Krezer and Judd.   If they had not of tanked to finish 2nd lst they would have lost the extra pick at the top of the draft and they would have lost the opportunity to get Kruezer because their pick would have been lower than 1 or 3.

They would have got either of Judd or Kruezer without tanking.  They were already going to finish in the bottom 3 which was always going to get them 2 picks in the top 20.  That was always going to get them Judd at the least.  He was always going to Carlton regardless of what posturing the Eagles were doing re: trading picks.  Tanking only got them 1 extra player and if you think that Kruezer has made any significant difference to that side and it's current position then I strongly disagree.

And yes in the same vein pick 6 might work out better than pick 2 but finishing the season at 16th or 15th position with less than 16.5 points will see an extra pick in the top 20 without having to trade.

Picks 2 18 and 20 will work out better on average than picks 6 and 22
 

Again, I disagree.  The exact science that drafting isn't will always be swayed by a hundred different factors, not the least being plain old luck.  Learning how to win with a high pressure, positive attacking attitude is a given, a known, a no risk no brainer.  Just ask any Geelong or Hawthorn or St Kilda supporter.  Pinning our hopes on 1 more high draft pick is to repeat the messiah folly we have done so in such spectacularly unsuccessful fashion for the past 27 years.

Reiwoldt, Kosi, Goddard, Ball

good players?

[wayne again]

I listen to the Tigers on the Radio against Port with a mate, he started to hang a bite of S$!t at the end of the game, but i must admit it did bother me about the lost, I was comfortably Numb!! ( More suited theme song for the Tigers i think for this year by the way).

So i agree blaisee it is time to play the kids if we loose with them so be it ,but if we start winning with them i think everyone will get more of a buzz out of it somthing for our next coach to work with, and be excited by.
If Terry stays strictly play our kids or get a care taking coach who will.

[Smokey]

Reiwoldt, Kosi, Goddard, Ball

good players?

But they didn't get them tanking.  That's my point.  They were a crap team that was going to finish on the bottom with only a couple of wins anyway.  My comments are all based on the merits of tanking - I don't believe it is justified.

[mightytiges]

Reiwoldt, Kosi, Goddard, Ball

good players?

But they didn't get them tanking.  That's my point.  They were a crap team that was going to finish on the bottom with only a couple of wins anyway.  My comments are all based on the merits of tanking - I don't believe it is justified.

Whether they were crap or tanked is irrelevent though. They benefitted from having all those top 3 picks. So you're better off finishing last than 9-11th. Our two best youngsters are Cotch and Lids. No coincidence that they were top 2 picks.

As blaisee said tanking doesn't mean get the players to throw games. It means managing your side each week to give the youngsters more of a go to the benefit of the team in the future ahead of playing more senior players now who may win you a meaningless game here and there this year but aren't part of the future. Not only do you gain long term putting games into our current kids but you also are rewarded with the best chance of getting the best kids in the draft with 3 picks in the top 20. Trade a player away for a mid 20 pick and that gives up 5 picks in the top 35 or so. That makes a nice change to finishing 9th, trading picks away, and picking up just 2 kids in the National draft  .

[Smokey]

Whether they were crap or tanked is irrelevent though.

Again, that's my point MT.  I disagree 100%.  Tanking is an attitude that reflects the culture of your team and your club and if you do that and accept that then you have a much harder climb back to gaining credibility and respect - the 2 things our club has publicly craved and was supposed to be resolved in the current 5 year plan.  Tank this year (many would argue 'again') and you are just reinforcing the acceptance of failure and hopelessness of the situation in the playing group and among the supporters - the 2 biggest single influence groups in the club structure.

They benefitted from having all those top 3 picks. So you're better off finishing last than 9-11th. Our two best youngsters are Cotch and Lids. No coincidence that they were top 2 picks.

Yes but tanking didn't get them 3 picks - it got them 1.  And as anyone in football knows - any single pick in the draft will always have an element of luck as to the eventual success or failure.  Learning to win correctly will never ever fail.
 

As blaisee said tanking doesn't mean get the players to throw games. It means managing your side each week to give the youngsters more of a go to the benefit of the team in the future ahead of playing more senior players now who may win you a meaningless game here and there this year but aren't part of the future. Not only do you gain long term putting games into our current kids but you also are rewarded with the best chance of getting the best kids in the draft with 3 picks in the top 20. Trade a player away for a mid 20 pick and that gives up 5 picks in the top 35 or so. That makes a nice change to finishing 9th, trading picks away, and picking up just 2 kids in the National draft  .

You can manage the kids just as well without tanking.  Here's a novel idea - play every player on their merits and form alone.  Don't give players - senior or junior - games they don't deserve.  Teach, learn and reinforce that to succeed at this club you must play to the best of your ability with the right attitude week in, week out.  That type of experience is worth 50 games played under no pressure or consequence of failure.  Anyone advocating tanking is guilty of doing the very thing we despise seeing in our team on gameday - no will to succeed, no fear of failure.  And tanking by the stealth of 'sound management' is still just tanking - it fools no-one and breeds a losing culture just the same.  People talk of the current 'embarrassment' of supporting Richmond.  It is the players who should have such a fear of this personal and team embarrassment that it drives them to win - ain't gonna get that tanking.  Sorry, I can't see any benefit in tanking worth the downside and risk but I guess I'm talking in the minority here so I'll close my contribution to this topic as I have pretty much covered my opinion.

[Chuck17]

Sorry, I can't see any benefit in tanking worth the downside and risk but I guess I'm talking in the minority here so I'll close my contribution to this topic as I have pretty much covered my opinion.

And a good balanced debate it has been on both sides and interesting reading. 

I must say being the fence sitter I am I dont have a strong view either way,  I would like the excitement that gaining a top draft pick like Lids and Cotch would bring but I do worry about the underlying effect on our club during the "tanking/management" period and what it may breed into our developing players.