How will folks react if.....

[mat073]

Tigermonk

Please correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that Joel wants to retire at the end of 09....

Yes Joel is playing well enough to go around next year BUT dont you think after the disaster that has been 09 its time to under go some short term pain for long term gain.(sorry to talk in cliches).

Joel playing next year might make us a better team in 2010.....I just think we will be better off in 2012/13/14 if he retires at the end of the year.

[big tone]

I agree we need to play kids for the rest of the season, and if we do that we should not win to many games.
We cannot afford to win games!
Sure we have some good kids on our list BUT lets not get all excited and think we are better than what we are. We need to finish bottom two, not win 5 games and get the extra early picks.
I think as a club we are learning from our mistakes, our recruiting is getting better and i think the days of picking up other clubs duds are over with TW gone. We need a young coach with fresh ideas to teach and communicate with our young list. We need to do what Melbourne is doing, lose but lose having a real crack with the kids. As a member i would be more than happy with that as long as i knew which way we were heading.
This season is gone, lets not do what we have done in the past and win meaningless games and end up ninth.
Bite the bullet people and lets work on getting a better list together and that starts at this years draft.

Also i think it's time to move on from blaming past coaches, administrations, draft selections and past players. We have an oppotunity to start fresh with a new YOUNG coach, some early draft picks (and also more resourses to be able to use them properly) and a very young list. They have to learn together, work together and grow together.
We as a club almost need to start from scratch and build a team and a club to go forward and not look back at our last 3 decades, if only to learn from our mistakes.
We as supporters are just as guilty for the culture that has been at our club for 30 years as the club itself, it's time for all of us to change that!  

[Infamy]

the only senior players l said should be in the side are Bowden, Brown & Cousins, next year
Simmonds Johnson Richo are all injured & should retire

so who is good enough to push for Bowden, Brown & Cousins places next year, no-one deserves any of thier places because they aint pushed them out this year

Keep Bowden but retire Richo?
Now I've heard everything
Rance will take Bowden's spot in a heartbeat, in fact he should do so this week or next and keep it for the rest of the year
Brown has already been replaced by Morton & Nahas
Simmo & Johnson gone plus keep Cousins I agree
Using your same logic, who can take Richo's place in the side? Yet you want him gone?
Unbelievable

[mightytiges]

Good post BT.

Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting. We have a young core coming through but we need to add more classy youngsters and in particular a quality spine to it if we want to build and develop a premiership side. Finishing bottom 2 and getting 3 picks in the top 20 if obviously better than pick 8 come November. Three more months folks is hardly a long time to wait. We've already stuffed up the season being 2-8. Let's be pragmatic and patient and not stuff up the draft as well winning meaningless games against bottom sides that are tanking and we'll be competing against come draft time. For us in the situation we find ourselves now November is far more important than June-August.

As I said in Ramps's thread you not only play a younger and inexperienced side but you give more gametime in the midfield to 2nd and 3rd tier younger mids, or younger rucks, or younger KPPs, or you play kids on gun opposition players, or you put senior players carrying niggles in cotton wool for the rest of the season. Whatever you do, it lessens the chances of winning while at the same time giving their youngsters more valuable AFL experience in an effort to accelerate their development for next year and beyond. So even with kids you manipulate team selections and match-ups on the ground to get a "favourable" draft position.

[DallasCrane]

Agree Big Tone.
Lets look at the Priority selections or thereabouts last few years;

2008:
17 PS Sam Blease
18 PS Luke Shuey both untried

2007:
18 PS Alex Rance tick
19 Callan Ward tick, who should've been ours anyway 

2006:
17 PS Shaun Hampson, early days for a ruck but a tick so far
18 PS Leroy Jetta, looks like he will play 100 games, tick


Im a bit like CUB, my heart will always rule over my head on a gameday, but look at the evidence, we need a priority pick, and a bit of extra cream with a top 2 pick would be just nice thanks.

[mightytiges]

Tigermonk

Please correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that Joel wants to retire at the end of 09....

Yes Joel is playing well enough to go around next year BUT dont you think after the disaster that has been 09 its time to under go some short term pain for long term gain.(sorry to talk in cliches).

Joel playing next year might make us a better team in 2010.....I just think we will be better off in 2012/13/14 if he retires at the end of the year.

Yep Joel and Sugar are retiring at the end of the season.

The Club needs to focus on 2012-14 not 2010.

[WilliamPowell]

I agree we need to play kids for the rest of the season, and if we do that we should not win to many games.
We cannot afford to win games!

But how do you stop it? It could happen with blood and a new mindset

Good post BT.

Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting. 

How can you say the club is being dumb recruiting wise if we play the kids and we get a few wins?

I think we all agree that we should play the kids.

But it appears to me you (BT & MT) are assumng that we wont win anymore than 4 games with the kids or alternatively you don't want us to win anymore than 4 games full stop.

I still come back to the same question what happens if we do?

Are people going to jump up and down and be critical because on the back of the youngsters we win games?

No matter how slim it may seem there is a possibility that we will win games and more than 4. Personally if it happens I don't see it as a bad thing

Do we say to these kids - sorry guys we don't want you to win, we don't want you start developing a winning culture, please tank for us but we will give you plenty of game time in the process? 

[big tone]

I agree we need to play kids for the rest of the season, and if we do that we should not win to many games.
We cannot afford to win games!

But how do you stop it? It could happen with blood and a new mindset

Good post BT.

Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting. 

How can you say the club is being dumb recruiting wise if we play the kids and we get a few wins?

I think we all agree that we should play the kids.

But it appears to me you (BT & MT) are assumng that we wont win anymore than 4 games with the kids or alternatively you don't want us to win anymore than 4 games full stop.

I still come back to the same question what happens if we do?

Are people going to jump up and down and be critical because on the back of the youngsters we win games?

No matter how slim it may seem there is a possibility that we will win games and more than 4. Personally if it happens I don't see it as a bad thing

Do we say to these kids - sorry guys we don't want you to win, we don't want you start developing a winning culture, please tank for us but we will give you plenty of game time in the process? 

Come on WP, you are smarter than that (i hope). You don't say anything of the sort to these kids. You do as Infamy said- you minipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. It's a lot easier to lose games than win them.
So to answer your question- yes i would prefer not to win more than five games and get some nice picks for doing so. As well as give our younger players more experience.
Short term pain for hopefully long term gain, to me it's well worth a try!

[Judge Roughneck]

I agree we need to play kids for the rest of the season, and if we do that we should not win to many games.
We cannot afford to win games!

But how do you stop it? It could happen with blood and a new mindset

Good post BT.

Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting. 

How can you say the club is being dumb recruiting wise if we play the kids and we get a few wins?

I think we all agree that we should play the kids.

But it appears to me you (BT & MT) are assumng that we wont win anymore than 4 games with the kids or alternatively you don't want us to win anymore than 4 games full stop.

I still come back to the same question what happens if we do?

Are people going to jump up and down and be critical because on the back of the youngsters we win games?

No matter how slim it may seem there is a possibility that we will win games and more than 4. Personally if it happens I don't see it as a bad thing

Do we say to these kids - sorry guys we don't want you to win, we don't want you start developing a winning culture, please tank for us but we will give you plenty of game time in the process? 

We agree Bowden, Simmonds, Pettifer, King.. are not kids

yes?

[camboon]

Good post BT.

Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting. We have a young core coming through but we need to add more classy youngsters and in particular a quality spine to it if we want to build and develop a premiership side. Finishing bottom 2 and getting 3 picks in the top 20 if obviously better than pick 8 come November. Three more months folks is hardly a long time to wait. We've already stuffed up the season being 2-8. Let's be pragmatic and patient and not stuff up the draft as well winning meaningless games against bottom sides that are tanking and we'll be competing against come draft time. For us in the situation we find ourselves now November is far more important than June-August.

As I said in Ramps's thread you not only play a younger and inexperienced side but you give more gametime in the midfield to 2nd and 3rd tier younger mids, or younger rucks, or younger KPPs, or you play kids on gun opposition players, or you put senior players carrying niggles in cotton wool for the rest of the season. Whatever you do, it lessens the chances of winning while at the same time giving their youngsters more valuable AFL experience in an effort to accelerate their development for next year and beyond. So even with kids you manipulate team selections and match-ups on the ground to get a "favourable" draft position.

Amen, to MT and BT plus I'm sure Stripes,Ramps and others would all agree that short term pain will be in our best long term interest. Just hope they give the interim coach the same instructions they gave Ratten.

[mightytiges]

Good post BT.

Winning more than 2 games from here on would prove the club and its footy dept is still acting in a dumb shortsighted manner and has no long-term plan when it comes to recruiting. 

How can you say the club is being dumb recruiting wise if we play the kids and we get a few wins?

I think we all agree that we should play the kids.

But it appears to me you (BT & MT) are assumng that we wont win anymore than 4 games with the kids or alternatively you don't want us to win anymore than 4 games full stop.

I still come back to the same question what happens if we do?

Are people going to jump up and down and be critical because on the back of the youngsters we win games?

No matter how slim it may seem there is a possibility that we will win games and more than 4. Personally if it happens I don't see it as a bad thing

Do we say to these kids - sorry guys we don't want you to win, we don't want you start developing a winning culture, please tank for us but we will give you plenty of game time in the process? 

It would prove the Board and match committee are dumb because it will show they can't see the big picture. I don't see how having say a 4-8 record instead of a 2-10 record in the remaining 12 weeks will suddenly develop us a winning culture. It would though cost us at draft time. Giving up a freebie early pick for 2 meaningless extra wins makes no sense to me whatsoever. I can however see how having classier players and a stronger list will make us a better and more successful side. We need to get the cattle first. Yes we've got the basis of a young core but we need to add far more class and structure to it and the reality of the draft is the more talented kids are found with early pics. Those say 2 extra wins will be forgotten in 6 months time. However the kid we get with the priority pick (Alex Rance was our last PP) may be with us for the next 10 years. It's all about the big picture WP.

As for the kids - Yes we all agree to play them however as BT said you don't say anything to the players about tanking because players don't tank. Clubs and coaches (Worsfold is the latest) do tank. You manipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. You try to remain competitive for 3 to 3.5 quarters but you don't win.

[Smokey]

Amen, to MT and BT plus I'm sure Stripes,Ramps and others would all agree that short term pain will be in our best long term interest. Just hope they give the interim coach the same instructions they gave Ratten.

They could only give Ratten those instructions because he had already been promised the senior gig.  Do you think that we are going to do the same and if so, are you happy to have Rawlings, Campbell or King as our next senior coach without considering any other potential candidates?  You can bet London to a brick that if they can't promise the caretaker the job next year then he will go hell for leather to win if he has designs on next year's job.

[the_boy_jake]

Agree with playing the kids.

To address your question directly WP, here is my order of preference:

Best case scenario: Play the kids, tell em to have a red hot go but go down fighting each week, they gain confidence that they will be future AFL players, we get the picks.
Scenario #2: Play the kids and the kids do alright and start playing well, getting over the line a few times and showing the footy dept and potential coaches we have a decent list to work with. Gain even more confidence at the expense of priority pick.
Scenario #3: Play the kids tell them to win and they get thumped week in week out. Confidence lost and early doubts in their minds about themselves and their teammates ability to make it.
Scenario #4: Play the kids and tell them the result is not important as we really want the draft picks. The kids don't become disciplined and don't become hardwired with a winning mentality.

[Smokey]

Clubs and coaches (Worsfold is the latest) do tank. You manipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. You try to remain competitive for 3 to 3.5 quarters but you don't win.
 

Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.

[Francois Jackson]

Flogging a dead horse people.

All fingers are pointing in the Campbell direction.

As if they would choose one of King, McCrae even Rawlings for that matter when you have the former club champion standing their waiting for the gig.