How will folks react if.....

[WilliamPowell]

Come on WP, you are smarter than that (i hope). You don't say anything of the sort to these kids. You do as Infamy said- you minipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. It's a lot easier to lose games than win them.
So to answer your question- yes i would prefer not to win more than five games and get some nice picks for doing so. As well as give our younger players more experience.
Short term pain for hopefully long term gain, to me it's well worth a try!

BT: If you play the kids and I am sure we are all on the same page here in that we want the kids to play ahead of the senior guys but there is a chance that the kids are going to win you more than the 4 games.

When you have kids wanting to improve, wanting to compete, wanting to impress they are going to want to win. And they will go hell for leather to do that. I don't think it is as easy to manipulate

Believe me I understand your point of view but the question I originally asked still remains how will people react to it? My question wasn't so much about should we or shouldn't we tank it was about what happens if the results dont go the tanking way

It would prove the Board and match committee are dumb because it will show they can't see the big picture. I don't see how having say a 4-8 record instead of a 2-10 record in the remaining 12 weeks will suddenly develop us a winning culture. It would though cost us at draft time. Giving up a freebie early pick for 2 meaningless extra wins makes no sense to me whatsoever. I can however see how having classier players and a stronger list will make us a better and more successful side. We need to get the cattle first. Yes we've got the basis of a young core but we need to add far more class and structure to it and the reality of the draft is the more talented kids are found with early pics. Those say 2 extra wins will be forgotten in 6 months time. However the kid we get with the priority pick (Alex Rance was our last PP) may be with us for the next 10 years. It's all about the big picture WP.

I understand the big picture MT. But as I said above we are talking about kids who just want to win and I don't think stopping the natural instincts of a young group of players is as easy as it sounds especially when you have a coach trying to win a senior gig

Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.

I think you are right there Smokey

[Chuck17]

Believe me I understand your point of view but the question I originally asked still remains how will people react to it? My question wasn't so much about should we or shouldn't we tank it was about what happens if the results dont go the tanking way

Should be interesting games vs West Coast * 2 and Melbourne, it will be like who can tank the most.  We haven't been too good at winning can we do better at tanking and keep in mind Melbourne and West coast have been doing it longer than most.  There will be hacks galore on the ground and a star studded bench.

[mightytiges]

I understand the big picture MT. But as I said above we are talking about kids who just want to win and I don't think stopping the natural instincts of a young group of players is as easy as it sounds especially when you have a coach trying to win a senior gig

They might pinch a win or two (we can 'afford' 2 more wins) but a team of mostly young, inexperienced and undeveloped bodies no matter how keen and eager are unlikely to win too many games. The Dees are having a red hot go but have only one win on the board. As for the West Coast tankers they aren't struggling to lose either.

As for manipulation - if a young player is having a day out then at half-time you move him onto the opposition's star player. I remember when we played the Eagles at their peak Wallace moved Sugar off a well-held Judd and gave a young Lids a quarter to run with the Brownlow medallist to give Brett that experience. In that 3rd quarter Judd had 13 disposals and kicked 3 goals. It can be done and we weren't even tanking that day. Likewise Ratten pulled off Fev, Stevens and Murphy with 15 minutes to go against the Pies and didn't put them back on even as the Pies overran them.

Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.

Unless they've been told they won't be getting the gig and it's just a fill in role. In any case it's not the coach's decision. The direction has to come from higher up the chain = the Board and footy dept. head manager.

[Hellenic Tiger]

West coast is in our hands and will be a light on how the assistant coach and club will go since that will be the gigs first challenge. If they beat us twice then they'll have 5 wins and it stops them from getting a priority pick before the first round.

I think Melbourne won't get to 4 or 5 wins anyway even if they do beat us so they'll get their priority picks anyway.

I think if we give goodbye games to a few of the 30+ lads let it be the Pies in round 20. Home game for us so therefore use the game as a grand final for us and a goodbye to whoever retires and try to
a) Get as many people through the gate
b) If we have 3 or less wins try and win and hopefully wreck the Pies top 4 or top 8 chances whilst not compromising our priority pick come November.

So in summary use the 2 Eagles games to ensure the Eagles get two wins and get to 5 wins for the season to ensure they don't get a priority pick. Simple really.

[mightytiges]

Should be interesting games vs West Coast * 2 and Melbourne, it will be like who can tank the most.  We haven't been too good at winning can we do better at tanking and keep in mind Melbourne and West coast have been doing it longer than most.  There will be hacks galore on the ground and a star studded bench.

LOL it's a joke of a draft system isn't it. It's sad when our best interests are to especially lose these 3 specific games. Us losing both times to the Eagles eliminates their chance of a priority pick (so their PP as well as ours is in our hands) and losing to Melbourne again could see us with a top 2 pick.

[yellowandback]

Should be interesting games vs West Coast * 2 and Melbourne, it will be like who can tank the most.  We haven't been too good at winning can we do better at tanking and keep in mind Melbourne and West coast have been doing it longer than most.  There will be hacks galore on the ground and a star studded bench.

LOL it's a joke of a draft system isn't it. It's sad when our best interests are to especially lose these 3 specific games. Us losing both times to the Eagles eliminates their chance of a priority pick (so their PP as well as ours is in our hands) and losing to Melbourne again could see us with a top 2 pick.

Reality is that this is the last year of proper tanking for a number of years for all clubs. I say tank like you have never tanked and from next year - whether we are in the bottom or not - play every game like winning is the only thing (thanks Cuz). Because we MUST stop the systematic losing for our own good as a club and because the benefits of tanking will be significantly diluted tanks (sic) to the new clubs coming into the comp.

[Smokey]

Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.

Unless they've been told they won't be getting the gig and it's just a fill in role. In any case it's not the coach's decision. The direction has to come from higher up the chain = the Board and footy dept. head manager.

Yep, all comes down to whether we have senior aspirants in our assistant ranks - my stab in the dark would be 3 out of 4 are.  And if you had senior ambitions and was offered a caretaker role under the strict direction to tank and with no guarantee of a senior job next year would you take it?  I can't think of any aspiring coach in their right mind that would.

[mightytiges]

Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.

Unless they've been told they won't be getting the gig and it's just a fill in role. In any case it's not the coach's decision. The direction has to come from higher up the chain = the Board and footy dept. head manager.

Yep, all comes down to whether we have senior aspirants in our assistant ranks - my stab in the dark would be 3 out of 4 are.  And if you had senior ambitions and was offered a caretaker role under the strict direction to tank and with no guarantee of a senior job next year would you take it?  I can't think of any aspiring coach in their right mind that would.

Rawlings - as Coburg/development coach will he still be around next year in either of those roles? If we were to tank then Coburg wins the VFL flag does that hurt his future coaching chances?

McRae - development coach. Too early to be considered for a senior position. May head elsewhere for an assistant coaching role (GC?).

Campbell - assistant coach who does have ambitions to be coach. Yeah won't touch it unless it came with a guarantee he's got the gig next year.

King - assistant coach who most likely won't be around next year. I don't feel we'll consider him for the senior gig.

Royal - not being considered and gone at the end of the year.

Out of our existing coaches I think we only have our eye on Cambo knowing the RFC. His competition for the senior job next year you'd expect will come from outsiders.

[Tigermonk]

Tigermonk

Please correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that Joel wants to retire at the end of 09....

Yes Joel is playing well enough to go around next year BUT dont you think after the disaster that has been 09 its time to under go some short term pain for long term gain.(sorry to talk in cliches).

Joel playing next year might make us a better team in 2010.....I just think we will be better off in 2012/13/14 if he retires at the end of the year.

Yep Joel and Sugar are retiring at the end of the season.

The Club needs to focus on 2012-14 not 2010.

who said Joel Bowden is retiring at the end of this year, has Joel came out & said his retiring

[Tigermonk]

I understand your a big fan of these players as am I, it kills me to see Bowden and Richo be in there twilights and be robbed of ultimate success and see someone like Cam Mooney the worlds worst every forward walk in 2 premierships with his pants down and could have been 3 and will play in his 4th this year. It genuinely kills me.

l like Mooney he has flair which we lack, players think twice when playing on the loose canon

I think the reality is that In looking at the list you have to assess each one individually. (And I will get to your question in a sec)

1 sec up 

Kane Johnson = Injured since Geez has been born, gone. retired end of season gone

Troy Simmonds = Has lost pace dramatically and his strength isn't the same of 2 years ago and his leap is non existent. retired end of season gone

Nathan Brown = Has he kicked more than 4 goals a game since his broken leg? His body just keeps breaking down and can't string more than 4 games together and I don't think he's played 2 certainly not 3 good games in a row. can play another year but would need a good last half to the season

Joel Bowden = Honestly is notorious for bad starts to the season and would in teh bracket between 16th and 22nd picked in the squad. Think his body woudl hold up but I woudl like his responisbiility in teh backline to be transfered to McGuane or Moore. Wallace said he would play him forward but injuries & players unable to do the task  he was sent back again. Richmond drafts have cost us bigtime in the backline, mid size backmen have fallen apart like Newman, Joel is playing better football than Newman & l agree he starts poor & if a new coach told him to retire or move on l would except that decision

Matthew Richardson = Would be devastated if he wasn't resigned. I think it will come down to his body and he may be saved with not being properly fit around the time f the decision being made and will get given a lifeline. Whetehr he plays or not will depend on whether he can get 100% fit. This l agree he takes it year by year & gee l love the big fella but l dont think his body will let him go on. We need a sharp shooter in the forward-line but who is going to replace his workrate. Players need to lift a level & Hughes was his replacement but injuries to him busted the plans at RFC

Ben Cousins = Can still play and if fully fit woudl possibly be in our best 3-5 players. His issues whether they are still around or whether he keeps doing stupid things in front of the camera and in the public may hurt him. Champion which will still be playing another 2 years

To answer your question:

If we take Freo's team and drop Brown I would very much like to see if Gourdis can ignite something at AFL level, or possibly one from left field by putting in Alroy Gilligan. Just try something, even if you don't agree about the delisting surely you can see the positives by putting Brown in the rack and saving him for next year and see what the kids can do?

Both these players spend more time in the Coburg Reserves & maybe damaged goods

Bowden I think Post and/or Rance should be given games this year, with the backline at the moment that doesn't include Raines I think Joel woudl be the first to make way. Thursfield is on sketchy ground but shoudl be given a few games in a row to see how he's travelling.

l forgot to add Rance in my list as cemented players & has taken the spot of Raines who is one of the worst footballers l ever seen. Trade him to another club. Thursfield has been injured in the past & is very slow recovering form. l would just play him rest of the year he will return to form or breakdown

And I'd keep Cousins.

So:
Brown - Gourdis, Gilligan - even a Rance up forward in Browns position could show us something differet

Bowden - Post, Rance

Bowden should be the hitter up the ground, as stated above on Rance.

I don't enjoy saying it but it's for the best.

nice spelling mate but l understood what you trying to say 

[Tigermonk]

the only senior players l said should be in the side are Bowden, Brown & Cousins, next year
Simmonds Johnson Richo are all injured & should retire

so who is good enough to push for Bowden, Brown & Cousins places next year, no-one deserves any of thier places because they aint pushed them out this year

Keep Bowden but retire Richo?
Now I've heard everything
Rance will take Bowden's spot in a heartbeat, in fact he should do so this week or next and keep it for the rest of the year
Brown has already been replaced by Morton & Nahas
Simmo & Johnson gone plus keep Cousins I agree
Using your same logic, who can take Richo's place in the side? Yet you want him gone?
Unbelievable

l knew you were about at the time Imfamy & you are the biggest Bowden snapper on this board. you bite the fingers off Chris Lewis the finger biter himself
when you use the term players have already taken the spots of other players  then why is Brown & Bowden still playing
Richo your right l baited you nicely with that one  l love big Richo he puts himself before the team by playing injured & thats one thing l dont like.
Hope he does play 1 more year as he deserves his team-mates to carry him but he must kick the goals or retire & take something for his crowd anxiety before the game. Replacement l cant find anyone at the club who would go close. will leave a huge hole as you cannot replace a champion with champion, you will never find another huge man like Richo
Rance has taken Raines spot not Bowden spot. Would you keep Raines  seriously answer this

[Smokey]

Rawlings - as Coburg/development coach will he still be around next year in either of those roles? If we were to tank then Coburg wins the VFL flag does that hurt his future coaching chances?  Yes it will, especially if we are true to our word and engage a third party to find the next coach - Slade I believe it is?  He is already largely linked to the failure of this group to 'come on' and tanking will just top his chances off nicely - not.  And honestly, can you see Coburg winning the flag?

McRae - development coach. Too early to be considered for a senior position. May head elsewhere for an assistant coaching role (GC?).  Still has aspirations.  Won't want the caretaker role if he has to tank without a guarantee.

Campbell - assistant coach who does have ambitions to be coach. Yeah won't touch it unless it came with a guarantee he's got the gig next year.  Correct.
........

There's my 3 as I said.  And I stand by my point - none of them will want the role and accept being directed to tank if it doesn't come with some sort of guarantee, and we can't guarantee anyone anything if we are publicly hanging our hat on due process and the use of an external agency.

Out of our existing coaches I think we only have our eye on Cambo knowing the RFC. His competition for the senior job next year you'd expect will come from outsiders.

I agree.  I think he is the only one they are considering for next year from the current group but if he is as hard and smart as we are told then he will be way too smart to accept the caretaker role with tanking without an ironclad guarantee.

[big tone]

Come on WP, you are smarter than that (i hope). You don't say anything of the sort to these kids. You do as Infamy said- you minipulate where and who these kids play on and what positions they play and the amount of game time they play and the amount our more senior players play. It's a lot easier to lose games than win them.
So to answer your question- yes i would prefer not to win more than five games and get some nice picks for doing so. As well as give our younger players more experience.
Short term pain for hopefully long term gain, to me it's well worth a try!

BT: If you play the kids and I am sure we are all on the same page here in that we want the kids to play ahead of the senior guys but there is a chance that the kids are going to win you more than the 4 games.

When you have kids wanting to improve, wanting to compete, wanting to impress they are going to want to win. And they will go hell for leather to do that. I don't think it is as easy to manipulate

Believe me I understand your point of view but the question I originally asked still remains how will people react to it? My question wasn't so much about should we or shouldn't we tank it was about what happens if the results dont go the tanking way

It would prove the Board and match committee are dumb because it will show they can't see the big picture. I don't see how having say a 4-8 record instead of a 2-10 record in the remaining 12 weeks will suddenly develop us a winning culture. It would though cost us at draft time. Giving up a freebie early pick for 2 meaningless extra wins makes no sense to me whatsoever. I can however see how having classier players and a stronger list will make us a better and more successful side. We need to get the cattle first. Yes we've got the basis of a young core but we need to add far more class and structure to it and the reality of the draft is the more talented kids are found with early pics. Those say 2 extra wins will be forgotten in 6 months time. However the kid we get with the priority pick (Alex Rance was our last PP) may be with us for the next 10 years. It's all about the big picture WP.

I understand the big picture MT. But as I said above we are talking about kids who just want to win and I don't think stopping the natural instincts of a young group of players is as easy as it sounds especially when you have a coach trying to win a senior gig

Clubs who appoint a caretaker coach with aspirations (but no guarantee) of the senior job next year don't tank.

I think you are right there Smokey

WP,
Do you think we could win any game with a side like this? (slight exaggeration)

Polo  Silvester  Thursfield
Rance  Post  Tambling
Collins  Cotchin  Edwards
Conners  Putt  Riewolt
Nahas  Vickory  Gourdis

On Ballers- Graham  Thomson  Deledio 

Bench- Browne  Hislop   Jackson  Pattison   

Other players like Cousins, Foley, McGuane, Moore, Morton, Newman, and Tuck to play some weeks especially the really young ones to get games into them but whenever we even look like winning take them off for a well earnt rest!

(side made up of players that should be still on our list next year or untried players that might be)

Get the picture!!!! 

[Judge Roughneck]

Tigermonk

Please correct me if Im wrong but I was under the impression that Joel wants to retire at the end of 09....

Yes Joel is playing well enough to go around next year BUT dont you think after the disaster that has been 09 its time to under go some short term pain for long term gain.(sorry to talk in cliches).

Joel playing next year might make us a better team in 2010.....I just think we will be better off in 2012/13/14 if he retires at the end of the year.

Yep Joel and Sugar are retiring at the end of the season.

The Club needs to focus on 2012-14 not 2010.

who said Joel Bowden is retiring at the end of this year, has Joel came out & said his retiring

lets hope so

[camboon]

Lets not forget that we could send players off to have required opps so they recover and are cherry ripe for next year.