One-Eyed Richmond Forum
Football => Richmond Rant => Topic started by: Rampstar on May 06, 2013, 08:55:48 AM
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IMHO and it saddens me to say it but I believe this latest rebuild is on the verge of failure. I say this because a rebuild is supposed to be the basis for a club achieving the ultimate and in AFL Footy that is a premiership. In the game against geelong we only had 3 or 4 players who had played under 50 games of footy Geelong had 9 or 10. Collingwoods stocks of younger players also show more. Essendon for all the question marks have flown past us again. Port seems to have found plenty of young players who seem to find the balls to fight out of a problem. For all the redevelopment we have a bunch of panic merchants in our team, some who have been their for years, we have others who have specialised in turning over the football game in game out for years, our supposed stars never lift when the team is in trouble. We are on the verge of another failed rebuild and its sad for all of us because the only positive that our club has ever had over 30 years is the supporters and the members who year in year out do their bit by buying memberships and supporting the clubs fundraising plans but now we have to ask the key question- Can RFC make the 8 in 2013?
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:-\.......Wouldn't say we are on the verge of failure just yet. The Cats and Pies have many experienced GF players around the youth, so the youth appear to be better than ours because they have more support. Our youth such as Vlastuin, Conca, Martin and the like don't have that experience around them, they have to fight to show what they are made of.
The Cats and the Pies, the players, have been together a long time a lot longer than ours and we have turned over many more players than them in the past few years. If we are in the same boat next year I will be concerned but until then it's not all doom and gloom going forward. A couple of experienced KPP's could mean the world of difference.
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lol the hysteria
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lol the hysteria
My original post is very close to the mark of being true and if we lose against Port this season will be over for us.
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lol the hysteria
My original post is very close to the mark of being true and if we lose against Port this season will be over for us.
True....True...IYO, not in the clubs or mine...so how is it true?????
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lol the hysteria
My original post is very close to the mark of being true and if we lose against Port this season will be over for us.
True....True...IYO, not in the clubs or mine...so how is it true?????
so you reckon that even if we lose to Port next week which will be 4 losses in a row that we can make the finals? Not a slow flakes chance with our team and the lack of fight they show under adversity.
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:'(
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:'(
Sorry Al but someone had to say it. I cant continue sitting by watching every other club develop youngsters who can respond under adversity and watch our club never being able to do the same. We are not a young club anymore, our players for the most part are senior experienced players. They just arent good enough. Thats all.
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Melodramatic.
I think we're still in the process of rebuilding. Need some of our young talls to come on. They will with time.
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We won't lose to Poort
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(http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj489/dwwaino/baby.gif)
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Can't agree with you Ramps.
Yes I was angry on Saturday night with HOW we lost, it was pathetic to collapse the way we did (again)
Yes I am still frustrated about it because the usual suspects let us down
But when I look at where we've come from to where we are now we have improved. Yes we still have gaps in our list but less than we did before.
IMHO our bigest problem isn't the list gaps but our leadership. This has been a big bear of mine for ages and it was again the lack of leadership over the last 2 weeks that was the biggest let down for mine. We needed someone to stand up and drag us over the line against Freo and we had no one. They needed to stand up on Saturday and say "we maybe going down tonight but we'll be going down bloody well fighting". That's the biggest area of concern for me. Kids take time, we've been patient for the last 3 years with our kids coming through and we should continue to be IMV. But leadership wise, we need to fix it and fix it fast
You say:
IMHO and it saddens me to say it but I believe this latest rebuild is on the verge of failure.
and then add:
My original post is very close to the mark of being true and if we lose against Port this season will be over for us.
These are your opinions and you are entitled to voice them. But you appear to be saying that only your view is right and those of us disagree are wrong. I think you make fair points but I don't agree with the "verge of failure" part, I think that is being melodramatic to 3 losses that most people if they were truely honest about were expecting before the season started.
Can we make finals if lose this week? Yep we can but we make it bloody hard. Next 3 weeks will tell us alot about our leaders, our team and our Club.
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Ramps is a good poster who sees it as it is and makes a call on it. Hard not to agree with him, although i agree with WP, young kids need time to develop. I cant understand the angst toward griffiths, i mean if Macca can play his role in the F50 so can Griffiths. Give him a game FFS, its not as if our forward line is working wonders at the minute.
WP good clubs find a way to win without their leaders having a impact. Watson GWS, Swan vrs Saints. etc etc
Leaders stepping up had nothing to do with Hackson getting gifted games and watching Grigg get selected week after week after producing that rubbish he did on saturday night. Does anyone in their right mind think he is anything but a good depth player? I ask this question because id like to know if anyone does and if so what does he provide.
Lids not running hard enough at the contest. Same mistakes against freo in the last minute.
This is basic stuff that our players are not smart enough to comprehend. Against weak opposition like the dees in a few weeks for sure but not against quality.
Comibination of poor coaching, bad management and lack of leadership.
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When we win the next 3 everyone will be singing the praises. Everyone is down at the moment, but a week is a long time in football. Let's see how they go against Port. ;)
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If we win against Port then yes we will be on track again. I just have big fears about what happens if we lose to Port and how the players will respond to 4 straight losses.
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lol the hysteria
My original post is very close to the mark of being true and if we lose against Port this season will be over for us.
True....True...IYO, not in the clubs or mine...so how is it true?????
so you reckon that even if we lose to Port next week which will be 4 losses in a row that we can make the finals? Not a slow flakes chance with our team and the lack of fight they show under adversity.
Ramps I was replying to you regarding the "rebuild on the verge of failure" thread, not on the ramifications of a loss to Port and finals!!!!
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lol, id be more concerned about how some posters would respond to 4 straight losses. lock up the sharp implements!
as for the comparisons to other clubs and their rebuilds, none have had to come from as back as us.(When Hardwick took over he was calling the players in every 5-10 minutes at training just to try to get the basics right.) even as they wallow near the bottom they still have a core of players who know what its about. It's why other clubs seem to develop their youngsters quicker or better than us ( currently im talking about here, not in the past where we stuffed everything up). The kids just slot into a well drilled machine. they learn and get carried by the older experienced players.
a luxury we dont have as we still havent built that core of players. in fact we are expecting our youngsters to fast track to make this core.
Hardwick has done what he was employed to do to this stage and has done a good a job as reasonable could be expected.
Whether he is the bloke to take us on the next step of the journey is another matter. But if he is replaced in the near future the rebuild wont have collapsed. A new coach would have something to work with and build on rather having to rebuild again.
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lol, id be more concerned about how some posters would respond to 4 straight losses. lock up the sharp implements!
as for the comparisons to other clubs and their rebuilds, none have had to come from as back as us.(When Hardwick took over he was calling the players in every 5-10 minutes at training just to try to get the basics right.) even as they wallow near the bottom they still have a core of players who know what its about. It's why other clubs seem to develop their youngsters quicker or better than us ( currently im talking about here, not in the past where we stuffed everything up). The kids just slot into a well drilled machine. they learn and get carried by the older experienced players.
a luxury we dont have as we still havent built that core of players. in fact we are expecting our youngsters to fast track to make this core.
Hardwick has done what he was employed to do to this stage and has done a good a job as reasonable could be expected.
Whether he is the bloke to take us on the next step of the journey is another matter. But if he is replaced in the near future the rebuild wont have collapsed. A new coach would have something to work with and build on rather having to rebuild again.
Agree with this bloke.
Don't think Dimma is the man though and if he can't scrape us into finals this year it should be adios mofo and hook up with Choco or Roos
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We should still be playing the kids just quietly. :whistle
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We should still be playing the kids just quietly. :whistle
This is the problem.
Its looking very Wallace like. The current situation.
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Ramps is a good poster who sees it as it is and makes a call on it. Hard not to agree with him, although i agree with WP, young kids need time to develop. I cant understand the angst toward griffiths, i mean if Macca can play his role in the F50 so can Griffiths. Give him a game FFS, its not as if our forward line is working wonders at the minute.
WP good clubs find a way to win without their leaders having a impact. Watson GWS, Swan vrs Saints. etc etc
Leaders stepping up had nothing to do with Hackson getting gifted games and watching Grigg get selected week after week after producing that rubbish he did on saturday night. Does anyone in their right mind think he is anything but a good depth player? I ask this question because id like to know if anyone does and if so what does he provide.
Lids not running hard enough at the contest. Same mistakes against freo in the last minute.
This is basic stuff that our players are not smart enough to comprehend. Against weak opposition like the dees in a few weeks for sure but not against quality.
Comibination of poor coaching, bad management and lack of leadership.
Agreed. :thumbsup
Top post.
And spot on WP, our leaders have let us down terribly in the last two weeks.
The fact that the club has been banging on during the preseason comp how they've trained for icing a close game but we still see the same mistakes. It light of this what happened against freo is much much worse than anything that happened last year.
Against Geelong once again we see easy goals kicked during red time when its paramount that we hold possession, slow the game down and close out the quarter with a good lead.
Our leaders have let us down.
Our players are dumb.
The coaching staff are lying to us.
Things need to turn around and turn around quickly.
The time is now. We have to make finals they've told us over and over.
Stop talking BS and start showing us some fight.
The leaders must take responsibility & Lead the rest to follow.
Our time us now not next year. Fight for a place in finals and don't take any prisoners.
....And Play Griff forward FFS!!!!
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I would only be saying it is a failure if Cotch, Jack, Deledio and Martin were all 30+ years old and we hadn't made finals at all while they have been at the club.
All our guns are still very young, we've got kids running around in the VFL showing promise, I think we'll be ok.
After the Freo game I was livid, we missed a good opportunity and I think we lost the game instead of them winning it.
The Geelong game, while unhappy about the fade out, they were just too good, too experienced and they punish any little mistake.
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Leaders stepping up had nothing to do with Hackson getting gifted games and watching Grigg get selected week after week after producing that rubbish he did on saturday night. Does anyone in their right mind think he is anything but a good depth player? I ask this question because id like to know if anyone does and if so what does he provide.
Lids not running hard enough at the contest. Same mistakes against freo in the last minute.
This is basic stuff that our players are not smart enough to comprehend. Against weak opposition like the dees in a few weeks for sure but not against quality.
daniel, I've been one of the biggest critics of Grigg since he came to the Club, especially his apparent refusal to go in for hard ball on the odd ocassion it is required of him. But I had people tell me last year that I was being harsh because going in for a hardball wasn't his job, his role was to be hard outside runner. And while I accept that, it is fair to say he isn't running at the moment either, he is jogging along (actually it's more like floating along) = not good enough
As for Jackson I given up being interested in his performances and getting "angry" because quite simply he isn't going to be dropped because the coaches love him for reasons that I have never understood. So whether it is right or wrong (and it's wrong BTW) it is the way it is so there is no point in raising it.
But back on leadership, although I agree with your comment about good sides not relying on leaders to find ways to win; I'd preface it by saying the key words are "good sides" do that. And we aren't there yet so IMV our reliance on our leaders to show the way is far more important.
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part of the reason why good sides are good is leadership. the more players that display leadership qualities, the better off you are.
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Our junior recruitment has been very poor. But where we had no mid-age players in the past, we have a plethora to choose from now.
This team has good depth, and while many of these players aren't superstars and have limitations, they all have strengths.
The problem that has been exposed in the last three weeks is that this dud coach likes to play to our lists weaknesses and not our strengths.
Where we have had dominance in games, freo first quarter, geelong first half, and were highly competitive, collingwood first half, our weaknesses were exposed by poor coaching.
Collingwood game. Obrien loose for the first half but totally free in the third quarter when we went form one on one footy to a loose man. Collingwood played keepings off that quarter and lesson the football community took from that match was that we were a poor tackling side. Overlapping free players and uncontested possession was the problem, you can't tackle someone 10 feet away. Thus we fought it out in the last quarter when it was man on man but Collingwood were too difficult an opponent to overrun once you have given them the game.
Freo was the same, loose man, uncontested footy killed us in the second and third quarters after we had fought so hard one on one to gain dominance in the first. The defensive footy didn't end until the last quarter when we finally realised the only chance we had of winning was to attack and not chip chip over possess and constantly turn the ball over.
Against Geelong, it was the skill errors from the chip chip defensive game plan that finished off a promising first half and then the player frustration that boiled over seeing they were going to lose another game that they should be winning. Frustration that despite their best efforts, Hardwick had replaced Deledio with Edwards, Cotchin was struggling, the massive dud Vickery went off, Maric could barely walk and Tuck was in the reserves. They just didn't have anything left in the tank. Doesn't matter how good your list is, if you don't convert, if you gift goals to the opposition, eventually you get disheartened and run out of energy to go again for another negative result.
Is the rebuild on the verge of failure. If we can't develop some young talent, then its going to be challenging. If we don't get rid of Hardwick, his favourtism, his chip chip defensive game plan that doesn't suit our playing list, his desire to play a loose man to support that game plan when we don't have anyone who can play that role effectively, then it will fail. If we keep using our best players, Riewoldt, Deledio etc as decoys, then surely we will fail.
But with an attacking game plan where they don't overuse the ball and move it quickly to our forwards, and our defenders aren't constantly having to pin point chip passes but their mistakes are from 50m kicks to contests, and our midfielders and forwards can attack the ball and not have to worry about whatever stupidity Hardwick inflicts upon them this week, then this side is strong enough to compete with any club in the afl and its been built from very little and their is a passion to succeed born from years of frustration. There is potential for failure but equally there is potential for success. What the club needs is a coach that can get the most out of this playing list on match day.
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PACK OF LOSERS 8)
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Depth. We are starting to gain list depth but we need more on field depth.
Are we on the verge of rebuild failure - not in my opinion, not yet anyway. We are still developing players to fill roles and push for selection.
The on field depth issue is where we are exposed by quality teams. Shut Jack, Lids and Cotchin out of the game and we fail. We fail because 1) we have no players close to their talents to replace them but also 2)we are over reliant on them and don't look for other options.
If Jack is swamped bu defenders we keep kicking it to him. If Cotch is not winning the ball out of the middle we don't have another player who steps up to take on his role to anywhere near the same result. If Lids is tagged out of the game we still look for his run rather than look to other players to give us the meters gained that he does.
We need to keep giving our other forwards more responsibility. We need players such as Foley, Conca and Tigger to step up when Cotch can not perform. The gap between him and them are too large at present. Martin needs to take up Lids roll when Lids is blanketed.
I do agree with WP regarding our leadership. Our leaders are too inexperienced to direct play on the field at the moment.
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When blokes like Jackson, White, Grigg in the 22 when we have kids that need the game time for development. When the same blokes fail time and time again for two regimes and still get a game ahead of kids like Elton, Dea, Griff, Batch then that hurts.
I can cop losing with kids and losing showing some fight and spirit with kids but when the same old failures keep on failing that is what hurts.
Where are our leaders. Even Cotch has caught the poison it seems.
The rebuild has not failed yet but selecting blokes on a list who have failed before ain't helping the rebuild either.
Reminds me of 1997 to 2001. Middle of the road with kids languishing in the ressies while Ben Moore, Ben Harrison, Lionel Proctor, Craig Biddiscombe, Adam Houlihan were getting games gifted.
No point lauding your depth if you are not going to use it.
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I agree Tucker but at the same time imo we shouldn't be gifted kids games only to dash their confidence. I wouldn't give players such as McIntosh, McDonough, Elton or Williams a gig yet. McBean is probably in a similar boat even though he has been performing against big bodied players in the VFL so far this season.
Other players like Arnot, Astbury, Griffiths and even Darrou and Verrier probably do need more chances but only on the back of consistent form.
Our depth players now currently include Tuck, Foley, A.Edwards, the Big O, Lonegan and Nahas. Each and every one of them can fill a void. Not to the same level as the player they would be replacing (with the exception of Foley and Tuck imo) but bringing them in would not cause a dramatic slide in overall team performance. If on the other hand we bring in an untried youth, the short term drop is almost always noticeable.
Collingwood, Geelong etc only ever bring in a player when they are ready. We need to do the same. Our improvement needs to come not only from the development of our recruits to get them up to AFL standard but probably even more importantly, improve the regular players in the side to be performing at consistent finals-like standard.
Our culture is still not good enough. We need a player driven, non-negotiable drive to succeed.
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Stripes agreed however a kid like Dea who played footy last year or Batch should play week in week out.
Batch was critically good against Carlton but had a bad one against St Kilda and paid for it immediately. Now as an example if a kid like Batch, Dea, Griff, Elton fail to produce one game and the coach pulls out the old chestnut needs to go back to Coburg because he didn't do this and Jako for example kicks across his body across goals and out on the full preceded by a million Auslick underground dinky kicks and handballs and the coach lauds him as our best player so far this year and still he does not get dropped then we are not looking at depth and midfield.
Depth works if everyone on the list is susceptible to ressies footy not just half a dozen or so revolving types yoyo footballers up and down all the time between ressies and seniors who in the end it's detrimental for them also as they can't get any continuity at the top level so that kills the rebuild anyway. Therefore having everyone susceptible with all posies up for grabs enables you to find the best 22 with continuity and helps you to play.
What I don't get is a bloke gets dropped gets 40 for Coburg comes back to us struggles and the sequence continues and the kid or kids getting in the bests every week at Coburg misses out to Nahas, White and players of these ilk and guess what they fail.
It's not so much we can't develop them it's unless we get mass injuries they play.
Scenario 2001 Coughlan plays the entire year at Richmond and lots of game time and maybe just maybe we may have had 2 or 3 more wins but we are too scared as a club to make a decision like that instead we mix and match the tried and failed types and a generation of kids go to waste.
Play the kids please Dimma.
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IMHO and it saddens me to say it but I believe this latest rebuild is on the verge of failure. I say this because a rebuild is supposed to be the basis for a club achieving the ultimate and in AFL Footy that is a premiership. In the game against geelong we only had 3 or 4 players who had played under 50 games of footy Geelong had 9 or 10. Collingwoods stocks of younger players also show more. Essendon for all the question marks have flown past us again. Port seems to have found plenty of young players who seem to find the balls to fight out of a problem. For all the redevelopment we have a bunch of panic merchants in our team, some who have been their for years, we have others who have specialised in turning over the football game in game out for years, our supposed stars never lift when the team is in trouble. We are on the verge of another failed rebuild and its sad for all of us because the only positive that our club has ever had over 30 years is the supporters and the members who year in year out do their bit by buying memberships and supporting the clubs fundraising plans.
Totally agree
Lose this weekend, season over.
Signs arent good
Especially when the coach comes out after 5 rounds and says your best player was Daniel Jackson year to date
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Stripes agreed however a kid like Dea who played footy last year or Batch should play week in wee out.
Yes forgot to mention Dea and Batchelor. I can't see what a player like Petterd offer us that Batchelor doesn't :huh Batchelor is a far better kick and seem more poised too. Dea also deserves a game and is killing it for Coburg consistently so he meets all the parameters I mentioned.
What you stated about all players being susceptible to ressies football rings loud and clear to me. I agree completely. Tuck and Nahas obviously fell under that criteria so I hope Jackson and Vickery are judged in the smae manner if they continue to disappoint.
Play the kids yes but only when they deserve it. Don't hurry players in to prove a point but when they legitimately deserve a opportunity like Batch, Dea and A.Edwards, give them a chance over a few weeks. :thumbsup
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:-\.......Wouldn't say we are on the verge of failure just yet. The Cats and Pies have many experienced GF players around the youth, so the youth appear to be better than ours because they have more support. Our youth such as Vlastuin, Conca, Martin and the like don't have that experience around them, they have to fight to show what they are made of.
The Cats and the Pies, the players, have been together a long time a lot longer than ours and we have turned over many more players than them in the past few years. If we are in the same boat next year I will be concerned but until then it's not all doom and gloom going forward. A couple of experienced KPP's could mean the world of difference.
Fair call.
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It's not leadership, it's confidence.
We have some of the most talented players in the competition - Cotchin, Deledio, Martin, Riewoldt, Maric, Vickery - and they're all playing below standard.
Look at the other clubs. It's not leadership it's confidence.
Collingwood's kids play well not because of their on-field leaders but because of the belief they have instilled in them.
Part of that comes from on-field leaders and the way they treat the kids but mainly it comes from the attitude of the club and most particularly the coaching staff.
same with Port.
Same with Hawthorn.
Same with Geelong.
Same with Essendon.
Same with Sydney.
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When blokes like Jackson, White, Grigg in the 22 when we have kids that need the game time for development. When the same blokes fail time and time again for two regimes and still get a game ahead of kids like Elton, Dea, Griff, Batch then that hurts.
I can cop losing with kids and losing showing some fight and spirit with kids but when the same old failures keep on failing that is what hurts.
Where are our leaders. Even Cotch has caught the poison it seems.
The rebuild has not failed yet but selecting blokes on a list who have failed before ain't helping the rebuild either.
Reminds me of 1997 to 2001. Middle of the road with kids languishing in the ressies while Ben Moore, Ben Harrison, Lionel Proctor, Craig Biddiscombe, Adam Houlihan were getting games gifted.
No point lauding your depth if you are not going to use it.
Wise words
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Stripes agreed however a kid like Dea who played footy last year or Batch should play week in wee out.
Yes forgot to mention Dea and Batchelor. I can't see what a player like Petterd offer us that Batchelor doesn't :huh Batchelor is a far better kick and seem more poised too. Dea also deserves a game and is killing it for Coburg consistently so he meets all the parameters I mentioned.
What you stated about all players being susceptible to ressies football rings loud and clear to me. I agree completely. Tuck and Nahas obviously fell under that criteria so I hope Jackson and Vickery are judged in the smae manner if they continue to disappoint.
Play the kids yes but only when they deserve it. Don't hurry players in to prove a point but when they legitimately deserve a opportunity like Batch, Dea and A.Edwards, give them a chance over a few weeks. :thumbsup
Both of you are spot on
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Even before the season had starting Hardwicks fetish for playing Pettard over Bachelor and/or Dea is odd and troubling.
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Pettard is a forward. Hardwicks fetish for playing him in defense is the real concern. Up and under kicks are fine for shots at goal, not for kicking the ball at half back. Hardwick likes to free him up to float along half back for his marking ability. Really doesn't hurt opposition sides in that role.
Batchelor and Dea need to show more. They strike me as lazy players. They need to earn their spots. They need to provide clean skills, run and carry and I can't say I saw that from either of them in the reserves on the weekend.
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Rebuilds should always be evolving, should never be happy with the status quo.
From what was handed over to Gale and co, I reckon we have come a fair way but much more needs to be done and the club is always stating this.
Hell we were level pegging with Melbourne when both clubs started, I think at least we have got some structures right at the RFC, thank god we aren't doing a rebuild on top of rebuild as MFC claim to be doing.
Need to start shaking the tree at GWS and GCFC to see what youngsters they can't accommodate, considering they have cherry picked the last few years.
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We are fixated in recruiting players on football ability alone - no wise heads, no natural leaders apart from Cotch who has it all.
Who is the Nick Maxwell of the back line or the Sam Mitchell of the mids at Richmond?
Where is the support cast to back the leaders on field?
Hartley needs to move beyond the single dimension of statistics nd start measuring leadership and on field initiative - particularly in his free agency choices.
Goddard should have been a lock at Tigerland.
If anyone tries to tell me it's due to salary cap pressure I will pop a cap in their backside!
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Think one of the reasons they went so hard for Chaplin was for his leadership
Ditto Maric
But agree with your point yelloweandblack
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We are fixated in recruiting players on football ability alone - no wise heads, no natural leaders apart from Cotch who has it all.
Who is the Nick Maxwell of the back line or the Sam Mitchell of the mids at Richmond?
Where is the support cast to back the leaders on field?
Hartley needs to move beyond the single dimension of statistics nd start measuring leadership and on field initiative - particularly in his free agency choices.
Goddard should have been a lock at Tigerland.
If anyone tries to tell me it's due to salary cap pressure I will pop a cap in their backside!
Think you will find leadership was a big part in the drafting of conca and vlastuin. (just dont expect it to show through in their first or second year). not sure about ellis on this front.
I take it from the goddard comment that you dont agree when hardwick said that experience in other sports that have free agencey has shown that when you pinch a high profile player it ultimately leads to the loss of a number of lesser players?
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We are fixated in recruiting players on football ability alone - no wise heads, no natural leaders apart from Cotch who has it all.
Who is the Nick Maxwell of the back line or the Sam Mitchell of the mids at Richmond?
Where is the support cast to back the leaders on field?
Hartley needs to move beyond the single dimension of statistics nd start measuring leadership and on field initiative - particularly in his free agency choices.
Goddard should have been a lock at Tigerland.
If anyone tries to tell me it's due to salary cap pressure I will pop a cap in their backside!
Think you will find leadership was a big part in the drafting of conca and vlastuin. (just dont expect it to show through in their first or second year). not sure about ellis on this front.
I take it from the goddard comment that you dont agree when hardwick said that experience in other sports that have free agencey has shown that when you pinch a high profile player it ultimately leads to the loss of a number of lesser players?
Yep Ellis too, they feel with his dad battling cancer from when he was 16 (iirc), he's had to grow up and mature pretty quickly.
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As much as I really hate to say it, I feel Hardwick isn't the man that will lead us to a premiership. As I have said before, I respect him a lot and what he has done for the club, he has turned things around, into the right direction for us. But I feel him as a coach doesn't have the capabilities of leading us to the Flag.
The names of Roos and Choko however are exciting. I am willing to give Hardwick every chance though, but we just need a better, more experienced coach and a flipping hardass one at that, that wont gift players games.
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99% of coaches won't take their clubs to a premiership. Hardwick hasn't shown anything yet to convince me he'll win us a flag any time soon, but he's the best we've had in a long time and will at worst set us up for the future. That's unlike previous coaches who left us worse than when they started.
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What many have missed saying is that Hardwick is a relatively inexperienced coach too. You cannot compare him to Williams or Roos. Both those guys also had far better lists to play with and could build for a flag. Hardwick inherited a terrible list followed by 2 heavily compromised drafts and an a mildly compromised draft. He has done ok. We as supporters are now expecting to win even against teams like Geelong. This wasn't the case 4 years ago.
What our players definitely need is an injection of self belief. That was what was really missing on Saturday. I was very interested in what Corey Enright had to say at the end of the game. He said that it was a tough game and it took them until we'll into the third quarter to "break us". In other words, they broke us mentally! We need to believe that we can stay in games against anybody. As long as we believe, we mentally can motivate ourselves to keep competing. If you continue to compete you are always a chance!
As for blooding players, I still feel that we need to keep playing youth. Vlastuin seems to make good decisions and has skill and courage. Ellis is improving. I still feel we are one tall player down. We should play a Griffiths or an Elton or even a McBean. These guys need to be played for a block of games. The coaches need to show they have faith in them. It's the only way they can truly step up.
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I understand why we want to play griff and Elton etc,for they promise so much..However if you guys went and watched both these guys at Coburg the past few weeks they have offered nada....They cant even get near the pill.so how does a coaching panel promote them?......look I may have this all wrong ,but surely good or at the very least reasonable form earns promotion
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Well, we might only have a window of 2-3 more years before the likes of Gold Coast and GWS go soaring past us and every other club. It might be impossible to win a flag then for every other team. Maybe that's the thinking by the club, and after this, maybe we will have to go to the well once more and bottom out when the draft concessions are pretty much over.
It could take a generation to rebuild. Consider our gun youngsters now playing the mentoring role when they are in their late 20s.
Bahhhhh who gives a poo. It's nothing we haven't survived before
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I understand why we want to play griff and Elton etc,for they promise so much..However if you guys went and watched both these guys at Coburg the past few weeks they have offered nada....They cant even get near the pill.so how does a coaching panel promote them?......look I may have this all wrong ,but surely good or at the very least reasonable form earns promotion
I understand that. The problem is there are players that are also giving nada in the seniors but are still getting games. You may as well drop them. Why reward them or mediocrity. You might find that by elevating a guy like Griffiths and playing him in a Vickery like role, he might lift with better players around him. Even if he fails, you have at least given him a chance. Franklin played poorly when he played for Box Hill but was still elevated. He was even thrashed by Polo from memory. Some guys can't play well when surrounded by turkeys. Give them a chance at the big league. Not one game and drop them. Four games and see what they can do!
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ok..roll the dice and lets see how they go
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Well the whole rebuild is hinging on this weeks game is it, can someone tell the RFC that because it will be like a GF
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Well the whole rebuild is hinging on this weeks game is it, can someone tell the RFC that because it will be like a GF
I know you said that tongue in cheek. I don't believe it does. I think that there will be ups and downs (we've already had them) but the main thing is we see an overall upward improvement.
Still think we need to blood more youth. I mean KPP youth.
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Well the whole rebuild is hinging on this weeks game is it, can someone tell the RFC that because it will be like a GF
I know you said that tongue in cheek. I don't believe it does. I think that there will be ups and downs (we've already had them) but the main thing is we see an overall upward improvement.
Still think we need to blood more youth. I mean KPP youth.
Yeh agree some are just melodramatic
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of course we will fail
we r richmond
we need to exhume greame richmond, get his dna and clone him
thats our only hope
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I understand why we want to play griff and Elton etc,for they promise so much..However if you guys went and watched both these guys at Coburg the past few weeks they have offered nada....They cant even get near the pill.so how does a coaching panel promote them?......look I may have this all wrong ,but surely good or at the very least reasonable form earns promotion
I understand that. The problem is there are players that are also giving nada in the seniors but are still getting games. You may as well drop them. Why reward them or mediocrity. You might find that by elevating a guy like Griffiths and playing him in a Vickery like role, he might lift with better players around him. Even if he fails, you have at least given him a chance. Franklin played poorly when he played for Box Hill but was still elevated. He was even thrashed by Polo from memory. Some guys can't play well when surrounded by turkeys. Give them a chance at the big league. Not one game and drop them. Four games and see what they can do!
Tom Hawkins played a lot of games in the senior team didnt do much early in his career but he's a finals machine now.
I agree totally Y & B. sometimes you need to give them a shot and back them in.
Development can come in a lot of different forms.
Geelong has Blicavs in the team and he's doing a good job at 22 and he's only just started playing AFL footy.
Maybe just need to give Griff a go in the forward line and let him show everyone once and for all if he's worth persisting with.
For some reason they want him to be a defender, maybe they know something we don't know.
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they must know things about jackson rance white etc that i dont know cos they keep getting selected
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I understand why we want to play griff and Elton etc,for they promise so much..However if you guys went and watched both these guys at Coburg the past few weeks they have offered nada....They cant even get near the pill.so how does a coaching panel promote them?......look I may have this all wrong ,but surely good or at the very least reasonable form earns promotion
I understand that. The problem is there are players that are also giving nada in the seniors but are still getting games. You may as well drop them. Why reward them or mediocrity. You might find that by elevating a guy like Griffiths and playing him in a Vickery like role, he might lift with better players around him. Even if he fails, you have at least given him a chance. Franklin played poorly when he played for Box Hill but was still elevated. He was even thrashed by Polo from memory. Some guys can't play well when surrounded by turkeys. Give them a chance at the big league. Not one game and drop them. Four games and see what they can do!
Tom Hawkins played a lot of games in the senior team didnt do much early in his career but he's a finals machine now.
I agree totally Y & B. sometimes you need to give them a shot and back them in.
Development can come in a lot of different forms.
Geelong has Blicavs in the team and he's doing a good job at 22 and he's only just started playing AFL footy.
Maybe just need to give Griff a go in the forward line and let him show everyone once and for all if he's worth persisting with.
For some reason they want him to be a defender, maybe they know something we don't know.
He was a gun at junior level.
Would have been top ten draft pick if not for athletics.
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What many have missed saying is that Hardwick is a relatively inexperienced coach too. You cannot compare him to Williams or Roos. Both those guys also had far better lists to play with and could build for a flag. Hardwick inherited a terrible list followed by 2 heavily compromised drafts and an a mildly compromised draft. He has done ok. We as supporters are now expecting to win even against teams like Geelong. This wasn't the case 4 years ago.
What our players definitely need is an injection of self belief. That was what was really missing on Saturday. I was very interested in what Corey Enright had to say at the end of the game. He said that it was a tough game and it took them until we'll into the third quarter to "break us". In other words, they broke us mentally! We need to believe that we can stay in games against anybody. As long as we believe, we mentally can motivate ourselves to keep competing. If you continue to compete you are always a chance!
:clapping Agree 100% YBB great post
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What many have missed saying is that Hardwick is a relatively inexperienced coach too. You cannot compare him to Williams or Roos. Both those guys also had far better lists to play with and could build for a flag. Hardwick inherited a terrible list followed by 2 heavily compromised drafts and an a mildly compromised draft. He has done ok. We as supporters are now expecting to win even against teams like Geelong. This wasn't the case 4 years ago.
What our players definitely need is an injection of self belief. That was what was really missing on Saturday. I was very interested in what Corey Enright had to say at the end of the game. He said that it was a tough game and it took them until we'll into the third quarter to "break us". In other words, they broke us mentally! We need to believe that we can stay in games against anybody. As long as we believe, we mentally can motivate ourselves to keep competing. If you continue to compete you are always a chance!
As for blooding players, I still feel that we need to keep playing youth. Vlastuin seems to make good decisions and has skill and courage. Ellis is improving. I still feel we are one tall player down. We should play a Griffiths or an Elton or even a McBean. These guys need to be played for a block of games. The coaches need to show they have faith in them. It's the only way they can truly step up.
Refreshing post.
Expectations have lifted. Probably too much after 3-0 but we're still ok AND still developing.
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What many have missed saying is that Hardwick is a relatively inexperienced coach too. You cannot compare him to Williams or Roos. Both those guys also had far better lists to play with and could build for a flag. Hardwick inherited a terrible list followed by 2 heavily compromised drafts and an a mildly compromised draft. He has done ok. We as supporters are now expecting to win even against teams like Geelong. This wasn't the case 4 years ago.
What our players definitely need is an injection of self belief. That was what was really missing on Saturday. I was very interested in what Corey Enright had to say at the end of the game. He said that it was a tough game and it took them until we'll into the third quarter to "break us". In other words, they broke us mentally! We need to believe that we can stay in games against anybody. As long as we believe, we mentally can motivate ourselves to keep competing. If you continue to compete you are always a chance!
As for blooding players, I still feel that we need to keep playing youth. Vlastuin seems to make good decisions and has skill and courage. Ellis is improving. I still feel we are one tall player down. We should play a Griffiths or an Elton or even a McBean. These guys need to be played for a block of games. The coaches need to show they have faith in them. It's the only way they can truly step up.
Great post, sensible and concise.
Some around these parts like to melodramatic.
3-3 and claiming the season over if we lose to PA.
It's a long season.
I remember correctly Stiffy did state at family day to enjoy the ride, I think he might be right.
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another half century thread in posts for the Rampstar. a loss next week and the century will be a given. A triple century could be on the cards :lol
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What many have missed saying is that Hardwick is a relatively inexperienced coach too. You cannot compare him to Williams or Roos. Both those guys also had far better lists to play with and could build for a flag. Hardwick inherited a terrible list followed by 2 heavily compromised drafts and an a mildly compromised draft. He has done ok. We as supporters are now expecting to win even against teams like Geelong. This wasn't the case 4 years ago.
What our players definitely need is an injection of self belief. That was what was really missing on Saturday. I was very interested in what Corey Enright had to say at the end of the game. He said that it was a tough game and it took them until we'll into the third quarter to "break us". In other words, they broke us mentally! We need to believe that we can stay in games against anybody. As long as we believe, we mentally can motivate ourselves to keep competing. If you continue to compete you are always a chance!
As for blooding players, I still feel that we need to keep playing youth. Vlastuin seems to make good decisions and has skill and courage. Ellis is improving. I still feel we are one tall player down. We should play a Griffiths or an Elton or even a McBean. These guys need to be played for a block of games. The coaches need to show they have faith in them. It's the only way they can truly step up.
Good post.
We're not Carlton, Hardwick didn't come in and take over a list that recently played finals and were seen as underperforming like the Blues under Ratten. Malthouse was brought in to win the Blues a flag and soon. Hardwick took over a basketcase and has now got a solid list to work with, but it is still developing and inexperienced. Calls for Hardwick to be sacked or replaced are silly, it's saying to the rest of the competition that we think we have a list that can win a flag, but Hardwick isn't good enough. So we bring in another coach and he's immediately under immense pressure to deliver finals and a flag with a list that still isn't good enough.
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of course we will fail
we r richmond
we need to exhume greame richmond, get his dna and clone him
thats our only hope
:lol Love your work X
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of course we will fail
we r richmond
we need to exhume greame richmond, get his dna and clone him
thats our only hope
Should've had him frozen like Walt Disney
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OK everyone can rest easy and take a deep breath for a week before we start hyper ventilating again
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OK everyone can rest easy and take a deep breath for a week before we start hyper ventilating again
I think its still a very fair question to ask. If the aim of a rebuild is to create the basis of a flag winning team, how do we go past for example
Geelong - who played 10 players with less than 50 games in their side over the last weeks and are on top
GWS - who got given junior superstar after junior superstar from the AFL
Gold Coast - see GWS
Collingwood - who are blooding lots of young kids with some great talent that flogged us afew weeks ago
Essendon - who seem to have gone past us at a rate of knots
If you rebuild a team and they arent capable of winning a flag then how do you describe the rebuild? How do we go past these sides?
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I will leave the deep thinking to you Ramps, I am just going to enjoy this week.
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I will leave the deep thinking to you Ramps, I am just going to enjoy this week.
Rubbish. I demand you moan >:(
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I will leave the deep thinking to you Ramps, I am just going to enjoy this week.
Rubbish. I demand you moan >:(
Well I was disappointed we didn't boost our percentage by more, I thought a 10-15 goal win would have been nice
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I will leave the deep thinking to you Ramps, I am just going to enjoy this week.
Rubbish. I demand you moan >:(
Well I was disappointed we didn't boost our percentage by more, I thought a 10-15 goal win would have been nice
Exactly. Wheels are falling off :banghead
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I will leave the deep thinking to you Ramps, I am just going to enjoy this week.
Rubbish. I demand you moan >:(
Well I was disappointed we didn't boost our percentage by more, I thought a 10-15 goal win would have been nice
Exactly. Wheels are falling off :banghead
Sack Hardwick :banghead :banghead :banghead :banghead
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IMHO and it saddens me to say it but I believe this latest rebuild is on the verge of failure. I say this because a rebuild is supposed to be the basis for a club achieving the ultimate and in AFL Footy that is a premiership. In the game against geelong we only had 3 or 4 players who had played under 50 games of footy Geelong had 9 or 10. Collingwoods stocks of younger players also show more. Essendon for all the question marks have flown past us again. Port seems to have found plenty of young players who seem to find the balls to fight out of a problem. For all the redevelopment we have a bunch of panic merchants in our team, some who have been their for years, we have others who have specialised in turning over the football game in game out for years, our supposed stars never lift when the team is in trouble. We are on the verge of another failed rebuild and its sad for all of us because the only positive that our club has ever had over 30 years is the supporters and the members who year in year out do their bit by buying memberships and supporting the clubs fundraising plans.
If the reason for doing a rebuild is to get the basis to winning a flag then sadly I reckon this one is done and dusted. Sadly I think the last 2 years to many mistakes have been made in terms of which players were brought into the club the moneyball philosophy doesnt work in AFL IMHO. This rebuild wont win us a flag. Feel very sad for our supporters, deserve better but its not happening. Two years have been wasted and not enough quality kids have been brought into the club. The likes of Ellis and Conca and Vlastuin are good but its not enough. 1 quality kid a year is not enough. To become a decent club you need 2 years with getting 2 or 3 quality kids out of a draft. We havent done that.
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Ramps
Been saying this for nearly 8 years now
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time for francis "i get first round picks right but thats about it" Jackson to go
of course if i was a betting man that won't happen
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It's the 2nd and 3rd round picks that have killed us Ramps, both pre and post Hardwick.
The first round picks are easy and have mostly picked themselves. It's looking like we have overpaid for Vickery at Pick 8 and I still think we have spent too lavishly on Conca (you can develop those players from lower round, even rookie picks) and I don't need to remind anyone that we are still paying the price for the Tambling pick.
But the critical 2nd and 3rd round picks have either been frittered away on stupid trades or just haven't come on and I think that is where we are hurting. The McLovin/Mitch Morton double hurts the most, Chris Mayne and Jack Steven both went after Morton, closely followed by nothing out of Griffiths/Post or Astbury.
Unfortunately the trend is continuing under Hardwick's watch and it's forcing him to use the likes of McGuane/Jackson/Lonegan/Nahas/Petterd etc to plug the holes.
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IMHO and it saddens me to say it but I believe this latest rebuild is on the verge of failure. I say this because a rebuild is supposed to be the basis for a club achieving the ultimate and in AFL Footy that is a premiership. In the game against geelong we only had 3 or 4 players who had played under 50 games of footy Geelong had 9 or 10. Collingwoods stocks of younger players also show more. Essendon for all the question marks have flown past us again. Port seems to have found plenty of young players who seem to find the balls to fight out of a problem. For all the redevelopment we have a bunch of panic merchants in our team, some who have been their for years, we have others who have specialised in turning over the football game in game out for years, our supposed stars never lift when the team is in trouble. We are on the verge of another failed rebuild and its sad for all of us because the only positive that our club has ever had over 30 years is the supporters and the members who year in year out do their bit by buying memberships and supporting the clubs fundraising plans.
If the reason for doing a rebuild is to get the basis to winning a flag then sadly I reckon this one is done and dusted. Sadly I think the last 2 years to many mistakes have been made in terms of which players were brought into the club the moneyball philosophy doesnt work in AFL IMHO. This rebuild wont win us a flag. Feel very sad for our supporters, deserve better but its not happening. Two years have been wasted and not enough quality kids have been brought into the club. The likes of Ellis and Conca and Vlastuin are good but its not enough. 1 quality kid a year is not enough. To become a decent club you need 2 years with getting 2 or 3 quality kids out of a draft. We havent done that.
Spot on Ramps!
And Hardwick actually doesn't give those 2nd or 3rd round draft picks a shot.
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Just told it how it is. Sadly all this rebuild has done is make us middle of the road, stranded once again in no mans land getting crap draft choices again.
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Just told it how it is. Sadly all this rebuild has done is make us middle of the road, stranded once again in no mans land getting crap draft choices again.
Could it be that we are now at 'middle of the road' because its difficult to get from 'hopeless' to 'premiership contender' straight away?
Maybe we're still developing? Nah, because we've lost to good teams this year we must have arrived at our destination of mediocrity. ::)
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Just told it how it is. Sadly all this rebuild has done is make us middle of the road, stranded once again in no mans land getting crap draft choices again.
Could it be that we are now at 'middle of the road' because its difficult to get from 'hopeless' to 'premiership contender' straight away?
Maybe we're still developing? Nah, because we've lost to good teams this year we must have arrived at our destination of mediocrity. ::)
Last year we were able to convincingly beat both grand finalists with top shelf football. Go figure. The conundrum that is Richmond. :banghead
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Just told it how it is. Sadly all this rebuild has done is make us middle of the road, stranded once again in no mans land getting crap draft choices again.
Could it be that we are now at 'middle of the road' because its difficult to get from 'hopeless' to 'premiership contender' straight away?
Maybe we're still developing? Nah, because we've lost to good teams this year we must have arrived at our destination of mediocrity. ::)
We are playing, list blockers in the 22.
They are not still developing. These types have reached maximum output.
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The bad drafting, the lack of developing juniors, the tired trying to win with duds mentality has not changed since Hardwick joined Richmond.
But where Hardwick has been worse than previous coaches is his Game Plan. We struggled against Port and Melbourne. These clubs are nowhere near us in terms of list development. Miles behind. But our chip chip Robert Walls defensive game plan is biting us big time. We are as impotent as a gummy shark.
While we have a dud coach that is pig headed in his belief that a skilled, defensive game plan is the only way to win a flag, we will continue to fail. Clarkson has Franklin and Roughhead, and still he struggles to win a flag apart from his fluke first year. They struggled against GCS on the weekend. Its a losing game plan that has done nothing to stop the losing culture at Richmond. It requires a ridiculously skilled team to execute and we have not recruited to that effect.
Think about it rationally. You know half the list are average disposers of the ball. Would you.
a) Go for a high skilled chip chip defensive game plan where our best users can be negated and be rendered useless.
or
b) Run with a long kicking attacking game plan, where we move the ball quickly and our forwards get a chance at one on one contests.
Most of our players are long kicks. We should play more like Essendon and Geelong. Take the game on at all costs and get it to Jack and our other talls and let our running midfield mop up the rest.
The difference between a good coach and a bad coach is like night and day. 95 Northey had us in the finals with an average list and a few stars. But those B graders were able to execute his game plan because it was simple and not beyond their abilities. 96-97 Walls led us nowhere with a similar list that he only just began decimating.
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Agree with everything except we bent Port over.
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Just told it how it is. Sadly all this rebuild has done is make us middle of the road, stranded once again in no mans land getting crap draft choices again.
:rollin
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Just told it how it is. Sadly all this rebuild has done is make us middle of the road, stranded once again in no mans land getting crap draft choices again.
Could it be that we are now at 'middle of the road' because its difficult to get from 'hopeless' to 'premiership contender' straight away?
Maybe we're still developing? Nah, because we've lost to good teams this year we must have arrived at our destination of mediocrity. ::)
We are playing, list blockers in the 22.
They are not still developing. These types have reached maximum output.
Very true Willy, but Bents has nailed the response. We don't expect top be world beaters, but most supporters are not idiots either and can see when things are going off the rails. Continually playing the same spuds and bumping players like petterd up through the ranks ahead of 2nd, 3rd and 4th year players after not even half a preseason of training has still got me stuffed..
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just wondering did we play finals under northey in 95..didnt think we did...sheesh my memory is getting bad
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just wondering did we play finals under northey in 95..didnt think we did...sheesh my memory is getting bad
:gobdrop :gobdrop
Yeah we did
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just wondering did we play finals under northey in 95..didnt think we did...sheesh my memory is getting bad
:gobdrop :gobdrop
Yeah we did
Still can't believe he didn't coach us again after 95
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It's the 2nd and 3rd round picks that have killed us Ramps, both pre and post Hardwick.
The first round picks are easy and have mostly picked themselves. It's looking like we have overpaid for Vickery at Pick 8 and I still think we have spent too lavishly on Conca (you can develop those players from lower round, even rookie picks) and I don't need to remind anyone that we are still paying the price for the Tambling pick.
But the critical 2nd and 3rd round picks have either been frittered away on stupid trades or just haven't come on and I think that is where we are hurting. The McLovin/Mitch Morton double hurts the most, Chris Mayne and Jack Steven both went after Morton, closely followed by nothing out of Griffiths/Post or Astbury.
Unfortunately the trend is continuing under Hardwick's watch and it's forcing him to use the likes of McGuane/Jackson/Lonegan/Nahas/Petterd etc to plug the holes.
yeah but for all of those drafts the 2nd and 3rd rounders are actually 4th and 5th rounders. At least Hardwick hasn't lost the players like Wallace or Walls.
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It's the 2nd and 3rd round picks that have killed us Ramps, both pre and post Hardwick.
The first round picks are easy and have mostly picked themselves. It's looking like we have overpaid for Vickery at Pick 8 and I still think we have spent too lavishly on Conca (you can develop those players from lower round, even rookie picks) and I don't need to remind anyone that we are still paying the price for the Tambling pick.
But the critical 2nd and 3rd round picks have either been frittered away on stupid trades or just haven't come on and I think that is where we are hurting. The McLovin/Mitch Morton double hurts the most, Chris Mayne and Jack Steven both went after Morton, closely followed by nothing out of Griffiths/Post or Astbury.
Unfortunately the trend is continuing under Hardwick's watch and it's forcing him to use the likes of McGuane/Jackson/Lonegan/Nahas/Petterd etc to plug the holes.
yeah but for all of those drafts the 2nd and 3rd rounders are actually 4th and 5th rounders. At least Hardwick hasn't lost the players like Wallace or Walls.
Post, Griffiths and Astbury are second and third round picks..
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Just told it how it is. Sadly all this rebuild has done is make us middle of the road, stranded once again in no mans land getting crap draft choices again.
Could it be that we are now at 'middle of the road' because its difficult to get from 'hopeless' to 'premiership contender' straight away?
Maybe we're still developing? Nah, because we've lost to good teams this year we must have arrived at our destination of mediocrity. ::)
We are playing, list blockers in the 22.
They are not still developing. These types have reached maximum output.
Correct. And we could get the same results playing promising players and actually build towards a flag. Hardwick needs to play some of the 2nd/3rd round picks if he wants them to develop. Astbury/Griff/Helbig/Dea are all rotting at the moment at that poo stain of Coburg.
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just wondering did we play finals under northey in 95..didnt think we did...sheesh my memory is getting bad
:gobdrop :gobdrop
Yeah we did
Still can't believe he didn't coach us again after 95
you can thank mal brown for that.
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How come Stephen Wells and Derek Hine always seem to find quality kids in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of drafts?
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How come Stephen Wells and Derek Hine always seem to find quality kids in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of drafts?
bigger team covers more territory. Coaches who play those picks in the ones. Gives them a chance to succeed.
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How come Stephen Wells and Derek Hine always seem to find quality kids in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of drafts?
I know Derek Hines network is about 50 times the size of ours. He has scouts everywhere. Some dedicate themselves to just following one or two players for several years!
How can we even hope to compete?
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How come Stephen Wells and Derek Hine always seem to find quality kids in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of drafts?
It's becoming increasingly clear that Wells or Geelong are doing something very very very very dodgy. Wouldn't be suprised if there's something in the fruit and veg down in sleepy hollow.
Frank likes to donate lots of fruit and veg to the boys.
10 gamers built like 100 gamers.....Pffft!
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How come Stephen Wells and Derek Hine always seem to find quality kids in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of drafts?
It's becoming increasingly clear that Wells or Geelong are doing something very very very very dodgy. Wouldn't be suprised if there's something in the fruit and veg down in sleepy hollow.
Frank likes to donate lots of fruit and veg to the boys.
10 gamers built like 100 gamers.....Pffft!
Geelong also turf from 8 to 10 players every year almost religiously, even when they win the flag.
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How come Stephen Wells and Derek Hine always seem to find quality kids in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of drafts?
bigger team covers more territory. Coaches who play those picks in the ones. Gives them a chance to succeed.
"Bigger teams cover more territory"- just going back the last three years (couldn't be bothered going back any further) Collingwood and Derek Hine have drafted kids from the TAC Cup in Melbourne, the WAFL and SAFL..
Haven't really done much different than every other club. Credit where credit is due, Derek Hine and Stephen Wells are geniuses! Frances Jackson is a loser.
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I'm still waiting for Nanas to put on some muscle.
He's 70kg.
Poor bastard!
......wait a minute! :huh3
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How come Stephen Wells and Derek Hine always seem to find quality kids in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of drafts?
bigger team covers more territory. Coaches who play those picks in the ones. Gives them a chance to succeed.
"Bigger teams cover more territory"- just going back the last three years (couldn't be bothered going back any further) Collingwood and Derek Hine have drafted kids from the TAC Cup in Melbourne, the WAFL and SAFL..
Haven't really done much different than every other club. Credit where credit is due, Derek Hine and Stephen Wells are geniuses! Frances Jackson is a loser.
Beams from Qld, Witts from NSW. As mentioned above they have heaps of blokes in each of those states. We're lucky to have 1 or 2. The kids they pick also get played. Ours die in the black hole of Coburg.
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Another Century on the board. ;D
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Notice the Blues went and poached Stephen Wells' 2IC the other day.
Derek Hine went and got another brilliant mind to assist him in Rendell.
The club have the coin and have offered to spend it on extending our recruiting network but FJ does not believe in it. He has stated that a smaller network provides better results. FJ does not play well with others. FJ does not want to be exposed as hack. FJ is a stuffing four eyed fruit.
FJ :bow :bow
::)
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How come Stephen Wells and Derek Hine always seem to find quality kids in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of drafts?
bigger team covers more territory. Coaches who play those picks in the ones. Gives them a chance to succeed.
"Bigger teams cover more territory"- just going back the last three years (couldn't be bothered going back any further) Collingwood and Derek Hine have drafted kids from the TAC Cup in Melbourne, the WAFL and SAFL..
Haven't really done much different than every other club. Credit where credit is due, Derek Hine and Stephen Wells are geniuses! Frances Jackson is a loser.
Beams from Qld, Witts from NSW. As mentioned above they have heaps of blokes in each of those states. We're lucky to have 1 or 2. The kids they pick also get played. Ours die in the black hole of Coburg.
Only went back 3 years and it was for 2nd and 3rd round draft picks as I said, Beams was 5 years ago and from the QAFL. Pretty sure all clubs would be looking there too. And Witts represented NSW in the Champs and got best player- not really a hidden gem. It only takes one person to identify talent.
It's more about seeing potential than finding them in some sh!ty league. So IMO and from our time with FJ I still think he is a loser and should lose his job starting today. And I hate him. :scream
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How come Stephen Wells and Derek Hine always seem to find quality kids in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of drafts?
bigger team covers more territory. Coaches who play those picks in the ones. Gives them a chance to succeed.
"Bigger teams cover more territory"- just going back the last three years (couldn't be bothered going back any further) Collingwood and Derek Hine have drafted kids from the TAC Cup in Melbourne, the WAFL and SAFL..
Haven't really done much different than every other club. Credit where credit is due, Derek Hine and Stephen Wells are geniuses! Frances Jackson is a loser.
Beams from Qld, Witts from NSW. As mentioned above they have heaps of blokes in each of those states. We're lucky to have 1 or 2. The kids they pick also get played. Ours die in the black hole of Coburg.
Only went back 3 years and it was for 2nd and 3rd round draft picks as I said, Beams was 5 years ago and from the QAFL. Pretty sure all clubs would be looking there too. And Witts represented NSW in the Champs and got best player- not really a hidden gem. It only takes one person to identify talent.
It's more about seeing potential than finding them in some pooy league. So IMO and from our time with FJ I still think he is a loser and should lose his job starting today. And I hate him. :scream
:clapping I liked the last line. Still think he needs more help. Rendell would have been awesome. FFS I'd do it for free. I would have shoved him off the mic and picked luke Parker over Batchelor. From memory gerkin is right FJ doesn't want more help though. So then you're right we need a new guy in charge.
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FJ is a 1 pick wonder.
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We rarely play kids that we have selected beyond the second round unless we traded that pick for a rusty coke can from the Alcoa plant.
Adam Thompson
Jordan McMahon
Mitch Morton
Mitch Farmer
Come to think of it Ben Nason was the only one I can think of in recent times who was selected beyond a third rounder who played more games than he missed. In Dimma's first year might I add. :help
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Notice the Blues went and poached Stephen Wells' 2IC the other day.
Derek Hine went and got another brilliant mind to assist him in Rendell.
The club have the coin and have offered to spend it on extending our recruiting network but FJ does not believe in it. He has stated that a smaller network provides better results. FJ does not play well with others. FJ does not want to be exposed as hack. FJ is a stuffing four eyed fruit.
FJ :bow :bow
::)
That's disturbing if it's true. A few years back Collingwood had 9 recruiters, 4 permanent I think.
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I would have shoved him off the mic and picked luke Parker over Batchelor.
Another Fine Eyes :facepalm Moment
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The issue is the Club, at least with its public statements, got ahead of itself given where the list is currently at. Those of us here who analysed our list since Hardwick took over were saying the earliest chance we would have of making the finals was possibly 2013 with some luck but we may even have to wait until 2014 (given we won meaningless games in 2009-10 and missed out on valuable top 20 priority draft picks in compromised drafts to accelerate the rebuild). The Club however was talking finals last year when we had no chance (which is how it turned out) and again this year the Club has been talking finals as if it's a given when really it was/is a 50/50 chance (ie. we need/needed things to go our way). Due the Club talking and promising finals, it's raised expectations beyond reality and so as supporters we're talking about us failing when we really are just showing where we are still at and how far away we still are from the top sides.
The list is still immature IMO and still lacking about a half-a-dozen AFL standard footballers including a couple more A-graders. That can be achieved over the next couple of drafts, trade and free agency periods. So I wouldn't say yet the rebuild is on the verge of failure; it's just still incomplete. There's finally a decent core to build around but there's more to do. Unfortunately the Club doesn't help itself by still talking too much before it can walk :P.
To make the finals this year we needed the following to happen:
(i) Our A-graders to continue to be our best and most consistent players moving towards the elite category.
So that's Cotch, Lids and Jack. Despite not reaching the dizzy heights I still think in the main across the season they have delivered (albeit minus a couple of games). The problem is they can't and shouldn't be made to carry the side. For the A-graders to shine over 4 quarters you need the supporting cast to share the workload. So we move onto point (ii).
(ii) Those B-graders that stepped up and had good/breakout years in 2012, needed to back it up this year.
This IMV has not happened and the most disappointing aspect. Ivan and Grigg who had terrific years last year are well down on their 2012 output. Ivan's form is the biggest concern as there's no reliable back-up and it's affecting the whole side's output especially our midfield.
(iii) Our young blokes coming into their 3rd-4th years needed to step up and have breakout years.
Mixed news. Conca and Ellis have stepped up (sadly both injured now) while Vlastuin isn't a 3rd-4th year player but he plays like one. Dusty still needs to build up his tank but IMO he's had a good year and obviously better than in 2012. On the other hand however, Our younger talls haven't stepped up and hence we've still had to rely on the likes of McGuane and now A.Edwards.
(iii) Our new mature recruits needed to be best-22ers in our side.
Mixed news again. Chaplin's been a good addition and Knights was starting to be as well before the season-ending injury. So thumbs up to free agency. Petterd was okay before also getting injured. On the other hand, the mature rookie "back-up for injuries" idea has been a flop so far. No doubt Big O would be in the side if the coaching staff felt they could rely on him to relieve Maric whereas Lonergan was useless against his old side in filling in for the injured Tucky. Now this week we're going to try Az Edwards who has come in for the omitted McGuane.
(iv) A bit luck injury-wise.
Unlike this time last year when we had pretty much a dream run during the first 9-10 rounds, we've been hit regularly with injuries this year and ones that are keeping best-22ers out for month(s). As a result, we are chopping and changing the side on a weekly basis. Further to that the injuries have hit our 2nd tier types - Tuck, Conca, Ellis, Knights, Grimes and Petterd. This has resulted in our bottom six needing to now step up and be our middle six which they clearly can't against any decent team. We saw in the 2nd half of last year how much we fell away in terms of quality footy played compared to the first half of 2012. So depth or lack of it is still major issue for us as it is for all the middle-of-the-ladder sides vying to scrape into the top 8. Cop half-a-dozen injuries and as a side you reach your breaking point and you drop away from looking quite a decent side to playing ugly crap! Hopefully (touchwood) we don't cop any more serious injuries and start getting back most of the above (Knights gone for good sadly) for the second half of the year.
(v) Beat the sides around and below us (ie. no more bad losses to the likes of Port & Suns in 2012)
So far it's a tick as we are winning the games we're expected to. However, our current form line in terms of the quality of footy we're producing is more the concern than the results. Apart from the Bulldogs game, I haven't seen us play more than a half of decent footy yet this season. We've got away with it against the sides below us but as expected not against the sides above us. That for mine stems from points (ii) and (iv). IMO our season along with this point (v) will be decided in the Adelaide and North games coming up after the bye. It will mean the difference between being 9-5 and having a genuine shot at making the finals or being 7-7 and missing out by a few wins again. Right now on form we are facing the latter :-\ but 3-4 inclusions replacing the absolute fill-in duds after the bye can still see us turn it around.
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I would have shoved him off the mic and picked luke Parker over Batchelor.
Another Fine Eyes :facepalm Moment
:banghead :banghead :banghead
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Just on a side note can someone tell me why Luke Parker isnt wearing a Tigers jumper. In 2010 Me and many others were calling for him to be called out by us but instead we took Batchelor. Seriously how can a decision like that be made. Also just looked at the 2010 draft again ... Conca is ok but others wanted Heppell and further down the list we took Tom Derrickx and a few selections later Hawthorn took Paul Puopolo. Now I dont mind mistakes being made and maybe Conca/Heppell is 50/50 but Parker was always a better prospect than Batchelor. Good recruiters find the likes of Puopolo and not Derrickx.
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conca /heppelll aint 50/50 .Heppell is a star conca aint(yet)
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conca /heppelll aint 50/50 .Heppell is a star conca aint(yet)
Ive tried to be generous and give the benefit of the doubt. I have to say though that I agree with you.
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(iii) Our young blokes coming into their 3rd-4th years needed to step up and have breakout years.
Mixed news. Conca and Ellis have stepped up (sadly both injured now) while Vlastuin isn't a 3rd-4th year player but he plays like one. Dusty still needs to build up his tank but IMO he's had a good year and obviously better than in 2012. On the other hand however, Our younger talls haven't stepped up and hence we've still had to rely on the likes of McGuane and now A.Edwards.
(iii) Our new mature recruits needed to be best-22ers in our side.
Mixed news again. Chaplin's been a good addition and Knights was starting to be as well before the season-ending injury. So thumbs up to free agency. Petterd was okay before also getting injured. On the other hand, the mature rookie "back-up for injuries" idea has been a flop so far. No doubt Big O would be in the side if the coaching staff felt they could rely on him to relieve Maric whereas Lonergan was useless against his old side in filling in for the injured Tucky. Now this week we're going to try Az Edwards who has come in for the omitted McGuane.
I really like reading your posts MT.
When Hardwick took over we were at our lowest and had a hard task ahead of him. I was saying at the time I'd expect to see finals by 2014.
What I like to look for in a coach is an uncompromising stance on excellence. It's important for all clubs but so much more important for us considering our history in the last 30 years.
As I've said before unless you eradicate mediocrity it's stain will one day rear its ugly head.
Hardwick said all the right things in his first two years. "You won't play in this jumper if you can't win your own ball", "We want great kicks". etc etc.
Unfortunately we are all clearly seeing the same pattern of quick fix as we've seen in the past.
A player like Griffiths is a prime example of the problems the club finds itself in at the minute and some questions need to be seriously asked;
a) Why isn't he playing?
In light of the long term view that 2014 was a realistic time frame in which to expect finals.
b) Why isn't he playing?
If he is young and a developing KPP already in the system for 4 years
c) Why isn't he playing?
If your going to either fast track his development or find out if he's worth persisting with.
d) Why isn't he playing?
Keep playing a Miller; understandably with the idea that griff wasn't ready at the time and we needed onfield leadership but in light of this then why play Mcguane ahead of him and now play a 29 y/o VFL standard washed up hack in "lockup" that's still as immature as my 18 year old son?
e) Why isn't he playing?
What does this say about our recruiting of him if by now he hasn't come on, he's not getting selected & we seriously need to find a future KPF or another ruck option.
f) Why isn't he playing?
If we aren't playing him then what does this say about Francis recruiting him ahead of some seriously quality players that look miles ahead of him in development and are getting regular games.
It's a bloody disgrace.
And as supporters we should demand answers on this. It's either a bad choice at draft, pee poor deplorable development or now they are going for quick fixes to get short term success.
The same questions could be asked on Arnott and the fact they choose to go down the Lonergan path.
It's just mind boggling and head scratching stuff.
I hope this doesn't go down the toilet because the way it's looking its headed in the same direction we've seen time and time again.
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He isn't playing cause dimma doesn't care about the future.
Short term goals.
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Either that or he has played like a breakable mannequin when given the chance and shown less at Coburg
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And yet mcgaune started in seniors regardless of proven rubbish.
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Doesn't matter what thread I click on, I keep reading the same thing (http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj489/dwwaino/baby.gif)
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1. Just on a side note can someone tell me why Luke Parker isnt wearing a Tigers jumper. In 2010 Me and many others were calling for him to be called out by us but instead we took Batchelor.
2. Conca is ok but others wanted Heppell
3. Tom Derrickx and a few selections later Hawthorn took Paul Puopolo.
1. Hindsight. Batch looked good but this year his playing KPD and not to badly except for one game IMO for someone who shouldn't be there
2. We don't need more half back flankers :banghead
3. We needed a ruckman and still do. Imagine Claw if we didn't have Derrickx :o
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1. Just on a side note can someone tell me why Luke Parker isnt wearing a Tigers jumper. In 2010 Me and many others were calling for him to be called out by us but instead we took Batchelor.
2. Conca is ok but others wanted Heppell
3. Tom Derrickx and a few selections later Hawthorn took Paul Puopolo.
1. Hindsight. Batch looked good but this year his playing KPD and not to badly except for one game IMO for someone who shouldn't be there
2. We don't need more half back flankers :banghead
3. We needed a ruckman and still do. Imagine Claw if we didn't have Derrickx :o
Heppell plays in the middle this year. He is the one with the messy hair.
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1. Just on a side note can someone tell me why Luke Parker isnt wearing a Tigers jumper. In 2010 Me and many others were calling for him to be called out by us but instead we took Batchelor.
2. Conca is ok but others wanted Heppell
3. Tom Derrickx and a few selections later Hawthorn took Paul Puopolo.
1. Hindsight. Batch looked good but this year his playing KPD and not to badly except for one game IMO for someone who shouldn't be there
2. We don't need more half back flankers :banghead
3. We needed a ruckman and still do. Imagine Claw if we didn't have Derrickx :o
Heppell plays in the middle this year. He is the one with the messy hair.
Sometimes and never does anything while there :lol
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Doesn't matter what thread I click on, I keep reading the same thing (http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj489/dwwaino/baby.gif)
Not true. I went in the Griff thread and it was about Batch. This one is about Griff. :whistle
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Doesn't matter what thread I click on, I keep reading the same thing (http://i1264.photobucket.com/albums/jj489/dwwaino/baby.gif)
Not true. I went in the Griff thread and it was about Batch. This one is about Griff. :whistle
:lol
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conca /heppelll aint 50/50 .Heppell is a star conca aint(yet)
Ive tried to be generous and give the benefit of the doubt. I have to say though that I agree with you.
:rollin
Quasi experts firing shots from the cheap seats :bow
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LMAO at the ejaculation over the buffalo girl.
If shortsteppel had been drafted by us he would be bagged shirtless for being a seagull.
Oh, but he looks so pretty streaming outside with those flowing locks. It must cause a rare stirring in the groin of the grumpy old men.
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Oh, but he looks so pretty streaming outside with those flowing locks. It must cause a rare stirring in the groin of the grumpy old men.
Not this one.
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perhaps you're not grumpy enough?
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perhaps you're not grumpy enough?
I have many witnesses that will attest otherwise.
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conca /heppelll aint 50/50 .Heppell is a star conca aint(yet)
Ive tried to be generous and give the benefit of the doubt. I have to say though that I agree with you.
:rollin
Quasi experts firing shots from the cheap seats :bow
Stop being a dill! Thats what we do on OER! And by the way when those imbeciles at the club start getting some success and providing the supporters with Premiership Cups then we'll shut up. We pay those mugs to do a job its about time they did it properly and got Richmond some success. NO MORE EXCUSES! NO MORE rubbish!
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Conca doesn't look as good as Heppell. Doesn't mean he is not though. No one took any notice of Ellis until his numbers surprized them recently. Conca not a match winner but will do all the hard 1% all day. He will win you the ball and feed it out to your better ball users, he will attack the ball regardless of the consequences, he will frantically chase and tackle, find space in front of goal and he will remain disciplined under pressure.
It's the same problem we have had for years with our better players, he has to do what older players should be doing for him. Heppell looks great because he is feed on the outside of stoppages. Conca will overtake him in the next year or two because he will become more influential in games but Heppell will always have a better highlight reel.
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Pls close thread until next loss when we can get all hysterical again
Thanks
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Keep thread open until we finish top4
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Keep thread open until we finish top4
Keep thread open until Griffith gets a game
Waahhhh Waaaahhh
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As long as mcgaune not there
Houli still a squib
Grigg meh
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Early notice : looks like this thread will be closed for at least another fortnight.
Pls don't post in here until required to
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This thread will not close until the 11th Premiership Cup has been won by the club. When the club gets the 11th flag then OER can close this thread. Theres still at leat 500 posts in this thread anyway.
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Sorry guys this thread is still having technical issues will be back up and running soon
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there is no technical issues at all. you idiots arent using this thread when you should all be using it and pumping up the number of posts in this thread, so instead of using the other thread which is nuffin more than a suck up job you guys should be using this one. Can RFC win the flag in 2013 and prove Ramps wrong?
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Sorry guys this thread is still having technical issues will be back up and running soon
:lol.....bringing up the old chestnuts tonight Chucky.. :thumbsup
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there is no technical issues at all. you idiots arent using this thread when you should all be using it and pumping up the number of posts in this thread, so instead of using the other thread which is nuffin more than a suck up job you guys should be using this one. Can RFC win the flag in 2013 and prove Ramps wrong?
Of course we can.
If Jack, Lids, Chimp, Dusty all go @ 100% we can beat anyone.
Chances are they will not be flying at the same time. Would be awesome thou
* we beat both GF sides last season remember
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there is no technical issues at all. you idiots arent using this thread when you should all be using it and pumping up the number of posts in this thread, so instead of using the other thread which is nuffin more than a suck up job you guys should be using this one. Can RFC win the flag in 2013 and prove Ramps wrong?
So is a rebuild on the verge of failure until you win a flag?
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there is no technical issues at all. you idiots arent using this thread when you should all be using it and pumping up the number of posts in this thread, so instead of using the other thread which is nuffin more than a suck up job you guys should be using this one. Can RFC win the flag in 2013 and prove Ramps wrong?
So is a rebuild on the verge of failure until you win a flag?
that is spot on correct 100%
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I reckon that's 100% wrong
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I reckon that's 100% wrong
But on the verge of being right. ;D
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Doubtful but certainly a possibility, good enough to match it with the best just have to do it at the business end!
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Doubtful but certainly a possibility, good enough to match it with the best just have to do it at the business end!
havent shown at any stage this yr that they can match it with the best. they have plenty of opportunities in the run home though. we could play 4 of the 5 top sides in ess, syd, freo, and hawthorn. lose all 4 and theres no guarantee we will make finals.
you dont gain credability beating up on weak sides or injury riddled sides you gain it by beating the best. we aint looked like it so far this yr.
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Are we better than last year when we beat the grand finalists? I think so and that's what I base it on :huh
See soon I suppose
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Reckon we look better than the side that lost most 50/50 games last year. Teams we've beat up on this year were teams we were near level with last year but because we beat them by a fair margin we suddenly aren't any better
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We are better than last year.
Some sides have gone down some have gone up a few rungs
St Kilda is well below where they were last year same with Adelaide
Yet Freo are better and we lost thanks to umpiring clanger.
Nought is not as good as last year when comparing to win loss but more often than not seem to beat us, yet Gold Coast is heaps better this year.
For me if we can win our next two given where we have come from we are certainly better.
Good enough to win the flag. IMHO 2015.
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Can RFC win 2013 Flag.
Nup
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Wouldn't have thought so unless we finish top 4.
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Not 2013 but none of the coaches considered us as potentially having the best list by 2016. Some voted for Adelaide and North Melbourne though :huh.
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-07-03/who-has-the-best-list-in-2016
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if we make.top 4 and in.finals produce footy like we played v the swans and hawks last year, during the 2013 finals there is no reason why we cannot win it
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Can't win it this year IMO. Need a power forward.
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Can't win it this year IMO. Need a power forward.
are u kidding!
go back go bed
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:lol
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As if
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Greece won Euro 2004 in the greatest upset in European Football History the Tigers can do the same. Four weeks of total commitment to the cause during finals time is what we need. We can do it. Cotchin needs to lift, Deledio, Riewoldt and Martin at their best and the rest of the guys pumped up and firing. I can see the 11th tin mug in the trophy cabinet at Punt Road. ;D
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Greece won Euro 2004 in the greatest upset in European Football History the Tigers can do the same. Four weeks of total commitment to the cause during finals time is what we need. We can do it. Cotchin needs to lift, Deledio, Riewoldt and Martin at their best and the rest of the guys pumped up and firing. I can see the 11th tin mug in the trophy cabinet at Punt Road. ;D
i know a few greeks who made some good money on a small bet in that tournament
from memory odds were close to 100/1
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We're equal 5th at $11 with the Bombers in the premiership odds for what it's worth.
https://www.tab.com.au/#!/nsw/sports/betting/standard/AFL/AFL-Futures/2013-AFL-Premiership/Winner
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lol at the bookies still taking money for the bummers to win the premiership
are they taking bets for them to get the spoon?
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lol at the bookies still taking money for the bummers to win the premiership
are they taking bets for them to get the spoon?
Top 4 and Top 8 betting has been suspended due to the likelihood Essendon will be stripped of premiership points.
Sportsbet only has odds for GWS and Melbourne to 'win' the spoon.
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Greece won Euro 2004 in the greatest upset in European Football History the Tigers can do the same. Four weeks of total commitment to the cause during finals time is what we need. We can do it. Cotchin needs to lift, Deledio, Riewoldt and Martin at their best and the rest of the guys pumped up and firing. I can see the 11th tin mug in the trophy cabinet at Punt Road. ;D
i know a few greeks who made some good money on a small bet in that tournament
from memory odds were close to 100/1
Yep odds at TAB were 80/1 at the time. :thumbsup
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If we lose against the Suns we may well finish ......drumroll .......
stuffing
NINTH
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yep
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Looks like we might fall out and the Roos might take our spot.
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If we lose against the Suns we may well finish ......drumroll .......
stuffING
NINTH
Essendon will lose 2013-14 points
9th=8th :cheers
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Greece won Euro 2004 in the greatest upset in European Football History the Tigers can do the same. Four weeks of total commitment to the cause during finals time is what we need. We can do it. Cotchin needs to lift, Deledio, Riewoldt and Martin at their best and the rest of the guys pumped up and firing. I can see the 11th tin mug in the trophy cabinet at Punt Road. ;D
i know a few greeks who made some good money on a small bet in that tournament
from memory odds were close to 100/1
Yep odds at TAB were 80/1 at the time. :thumbsup
Well played. Anyone can win on the big stage if the favourites aren't in their game.
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If we lose against the Suns we may well finish ......drumroll .......
stuffING
NINTH
GC our most important game of the year.
Let's see if they have balls or just a pack of whimps like every other year.
I'm tipping a loss.
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Looks like we might fall out and the Roos might take our spot.
Abit over dramatic Tigs given they still have to play Hawthorn Collingwood and Geelong and are three games behind us currently.
We'll finish 7th which in reality will be a 6th given what will happen with Peptidedon.