Your R1 Team to Meet the Blooz

[Smokey]

based purely on a strengths and weakness basis the majority of our existing  tall defenders would not have been touched with a barge pole in this yrs draft.  some deficiencies canot be fixed.

The only deficiency I believe can't be fixed is the natural ability to kick, mark and handball.  It can certainly be worked on and improved but it needs to be done to a certain level to be satisfactory for senior AFL standard and if you don't have a good enough starting base then it's never going to happen.  The rest of the complex skill set of the modern day footballer are all based around attitude, discipline and fitness - all very teachable, learnable and achievable over time.

I don't see any critical deficiencies in McGuane's, Moore's or Thursfield's games that can't 'potentially' be corrected or improved.  The thing McGuane and Thursfield have on their side is much more time, most importantly 'young time', when they have much more capacity to improve and succeed.  And they are also now rid of the non-developmental Wallace era, something that wouldn't have helped in their growth so far.

I disagree totally that any of these 3 wouldn't have been touched with a barge pole - Moore and Thursfield would have been seriously considered by some clubs, McGuane would definitely have had multiple suitors and been taken.

mcguane is no longer  young either.

WTF?  Turned 23 last week - 4 years in the system, 54 games to his name including all 22 last year.  He is exactly at the point when we should start to see him produce consistent good football.  If he was offered up for trade at this age and stage of his career other clubs would jump at the chance - he is young enough and good enough.

  yr 6  and at the end of yr 6 i bet my bottom dollar mcguane still has exactly the same deficiencies at the end of it..

What are his deficiencies exactly as you see them?

[MADTIGER2010]

What are his deficiencies exactly as you see them?

Apparently a 192cm, 90kg, 23 year and 4 day old good stopping, athletic, penetrating kicking key position/running defender can't get any bigger or better according to claw  . We all know that is complete CRAP 

[the claw]

stats scmackts  who gives a poo.

The coaches and football department - the ones who are charged with delivering our next premiership.  Thought a football sage such as yourself would know that.

firstly i dont proclaim to be a sage.  i have enough common sense to treat stats with the cynisism they deserve. i really do hope those in charge think the same and trust more in what they actually see.

Aaaahhh, you cut Moore slack after delivering for 1 season out of his 6 so far because he is very injury prone yet McGuane who has shown significant improvement in each of his 4 so far gets none.  Interesting.  What was that comment about defending dogged under performers?

geez  what  a comment. there is only really one legit excuse for players underperforming. and thats injury.pretty hard to play anywhere near your best when constantly injured.
being constantly injured raises another debate. do you persevere with someone who is constantly injured or do you at some stage say hey we arent getting enough out of you and the injuries look like they will continue to happen.

imo moore  has legit reasons for non performance mcguane does not. anyone who says injuries are not a pretty convincing reason for not performing is a fool.

He's 2cm taller than Moore so he is no more 'equipped' to be a KPP than Moore is.  Horses for courses and in all facets McGuane is a better proposition off half back than Moore with more time and upside to his game and career.  Simple really.

what are you on about i havent advocated moore play kp not because of height but size.
its exactly one of the reasons why i dont think mcguane should play kp along with a few other reasons why he should not play at all. nothing is ever simple.

look if you think mcguane a better propisition of hb than moore good for you but he does not have the tools to play as a running back. moore has it all over him in this area.

at the start of this footy season moore will be 26. mcguane 23, moore will be in his 7th season on the list proper and  mcguane in his 6th. they have both played a similar amount of games moore has not played so many because of injury, and both are a very similar size. the difference is when fully fit moore has shown he can play at a high level and has most of the tools an afl footballer needs. mcguane well hes a battler  whos done well with the tools he has to work with but for sure and certain he is not the answer moving forward it may well pan out that moore is not either.but if moore can stay fit i like his chances much better.
 
all i have said is mcguane is or was currently our chb hardwick in his infinite wisdom is now playing a better equipped player there .a player who hant done anything yet but one who hopefully will develop into the cornerstone of our defence. this is rebuilding, i hope he sticks with post.

where does this leave mcguane. imo struggling to get a game.
 if hardwick is silly enough to play mcguane at fb or as a running defender  it will prove he has no idea. mcguane just does not have the tools to play  either role. he chronically lacks size and pace to play fb and does not have the skills and smarts to run of.
he may play as a third dour negating tall,  but you want blokes who can run of in this role be genuinely quick have genuine footy smarts  and use the ball really well. they need to be attacking weapons. besides if your 2 kpds  are good enough the need for a third defensive tall is negated to a degree.

mcguane is what 191cm and somewhere between 86 and 90kg. how the hell is he going to play fb. he regularly gets out bodied in one on ones now, and thats up the ground where it doesnt matter so much. makes really dumb decisions and has brain fades that  are unforgivable.  his decision making and uncertainty with ball in hand is just plain ordinary  and his footskills are to be kind average.  so you want to see him delivering the ball of hb. im sorry its users like mcguane  coming of hb that has killed us in the past and you want to give him this role. the idea is to actually improve our systems and structures not remain wallowed in mediocrity.

the sooner the big bodied dea shows he can play and get a game the better.after all we are looking to upgrade in most positions we are coming of a spoon and attempting to upgrade is what rebuilding is about.
if we are not looking to upgrade on such average players like mcguane we will never go anywhere.sticking with the same old same old  will leave us mired at the bottom of the ladder.

anyway we are poles apart on this bloke and it seems we will remain so.

[Penelope]

To totally discount stats is as foolish as it is to totally rely on them. Stats play an important role in making judgments, as long as they are used in context.

To say that you should make an assessment based solely on what you see is truly flawed, because as you have said yourself claw, sometime we only see what we want to see. There has been much research done into the unreliability of eyewitness accounts, showing just how much memory, pre conceptions and suggestibility can affect peoples' accounts of events.

You only have to have a look around at the various forums and see the differing opinions on the same players to get an inkling on just how unreliable it is to pass judgment on a player based solely on ones perceived observations. Then there is there is the unwillingness of people to even consider their judgment may be clouded,regardless of the evidence presented before them.

[Smokey]

He's 2cm taller than Moore so he is no more 'equipped' to be a KPP than Moore is.  Horses for courses and in all facets McGuane is a better proposition off half back than Moore with more time and upside to his game and career.  Simple really.

what are you on about i havent advocated moore play kp not because of height but size.

You misunderstood my point.  You can't judge McGuane on his capacity or past performance as a KPP without applying the same judgment to Moore because they are almost the same height and weight.

look if you think mcguane a better propisition of hb than moore good for you but he does not have the tools to play as a running back. moore has it all over him in this area.

Please list the areas that Moore is superior, then we can have a better debate.  I've given my reasons why I think McGuane is a sound proposition to persevere with - all you have done so far is demonstrated a dislike for the guy with no reason behind it.

at the start of this footy season moore will be 26. mcguane 23, moore will be in his 7th season on the list proper and  mcguane in his 6th.

Incorrect.  McGuane is just starting his 5th year - Moore has 3 years of age and 2 years of experience, maturity and development on McGuane.  Moore should be in the middle of his prime, McGuane still approaching his.

all i have said is mcguane is or was currently our chb hardwick in his infinite wisdom is now playing a better equipped player there .a player who hant done anything yet but one who hopefully will develop into the cornerstone of our defence. this is rebuilding, i hope he sticks with post.

I also hope he sticks with Post but please tell me when McGuane was ever our 1st choice or preferred CHB?  He ended up there a few times in last year's debacle of a season due to other circumstances (injuries, Bowden dropped, no-one else good enough, etc) but he shouldn't be judged as our incumbent CHB, that's not a fair assessment.

besides if your 2 kpds  are good enough the need for a third defensive tall is negated to a degree.

Good luck building a successful backline with only 2 players 190cm or taller.  Every single forward line setup in today's era will have a minimum of 3 or even 4 players around the 190cm or taller mark and if you have a backline of mid 180cm 'runners' you will get slaughtered overhead.  Which one or your running midgets would you drop into the path of the leading of the leading forward?

mcguane is what 191cm and somewhere between 86 and 90kg. how the hell is he going to play fb. he regularly gets out bodied in one on ones now, and thats up the ground where it doesnt matter so much. makes really dumb decisions and has brain fades that  are unforgivable.  his decision making and uncertainty with ball in hand is just plain ordinary  and his footskills are to be kind average.  so you want to see him delivering the ball of hb. im sorry its users like mcguane  coming of hb that has killed us in the past and you want to give him this role. the idea is to actually improve our systems and structures not remain wallowed in mediocrity.
................
anyway we are poles apart on this bloke and it seems we will remain so.

Yep, that's as close as its going to get.  Our opinions on McGuane's present capability and future potential are poles apart.  I suppose 2010 will tell us a lot more about all 3 - McGuane, Moore and Thursfield.

[Infamy]

Actually McGuane is about to START his 6th season, so he's had 5 years.
He was drafted in 2004 in the same draft as Deledio, so he's been at the club for the 05, 06, 07, 08 & 09 seasons

[Smokey]

there is only really one legit excuse for players underperforming. and thats injury.pretty hard to play anywhere near your best when constantly injured.
being constantly injured raises another debate. do you persevere with someone who is constantly injured or do you at some stage say hey we arent getting enough out of you and the injuries look like they will continue to happen.

......anyone who says injuries are not a pretty convincing reason for not performing is a fool.

Wow, that's a big call - there are so many variables to make a generalisation like that.  Did the injury restrict the player's output, did the player hide the injury in order to play, did the player 'sulk' because he was forced to play with the injury, what is the player's tolerance to pain, etc etc.  Some players manage well in excess of 100 consecutive games in their career and you can't tell me that they weren't injured at some point but played on (and well).  Nup, there is no legit excuse for under performing, none, nada, zit, zilch.  There are a myriad of reasons, yes but zero excuses.

And applying your thinking, Moore must be under serious consideration for the flick if we are to consider constant injury as a criteria - 26 years of age, 65 games in 6 seasons in a poor side with 1 decent season to his credit.  If I didn't know better this would be screaming list clogger to me.  And before you howl me down - I'm ok with Moore, I believe he should have a spot on our list and that he provides options, depth and competition for a spot that is healthy and beneficial to the team, I'm just pointing out where I believe your thinking is flawed.

[Smokey]

Actually McGuane is about to START his 6th season, so he's had 5 years.
He was drafted in 2004 in the same draft as Deledio, so he's been at the club for the 05, 06, 07, 08 & 09 seasons

Yep, correct Infamy, my mistake.  I apologise to Claw.

My source had his debut year in '06 but looking further he was pick #36 in '04 and his first game wasn't until '06.

[the claw]

He's 2cm taller than Moore so he is no more 'equipped' to be a KPP than Moore is.  Horses for courses and in all facets McGuane is a better proposition off half back than Moore with more time and upside to his game and career.  Simple really.

what are you on about i havent advocated moore play kp not because of height but size.

You misunderstood my point.  You can't judge McGuane on his capacity or past performance as a KPP without applying the same judgment to Moore because they are almost the same height and weight.

rubbish  i dont want moore to play as a kp i want him played as a running  third tall type a role he is infinitely more equipped  to perform than mcguane.
moore as a kp  pppffftt. too undersized  just like mcguane. so i dont rate moore as a kp anyway.  your right i dont understand what you are trying to prove here.
as stated i dont rate mcguane MAINLY based on his deficiencies as i see them.  you may not agree thats your perogative,
i dont rate mcguane like moore as a kp option. but unlike moore  i dont rate mcguane a possible running back third tall option either.

[The Glove]

Rd 1 - Tiges

Edwards    GOO     Thursty
Connors    Post     Newman
Cotchin    Deledio   Martin
Tambling  Astbury  Nahas
Taylor     Jack      Roberts
Polak       Foley    Cousins

Int;  Vickery  Polo  Morton Collins

Rd 1 - Burgers

Farmer     Moore    Grimes
Webberly  Lukey     Dea
Nason      Contin    Gilligan
King         Rance    O'Reilly
Westhoff  Griffiths  Hicks
Browne    Jackson  Thomspon

Int/Departure Lounge:  Simmonds, Tuck, Mcmahon, Graham, Hislop, White

[the claw]

To totally discount stats is as foolish as it is to totally rely on them. Stats play an important role in making judgments, as long as they are used in context.

To say that you should make an assessment based solely on what you see is truly flawed, because as you have said yourself claw, sometime we only see what we want to see. There has been much research done into the unreliability of eyewitness accounts, showing just how much memory, pre conceptions and suggestibility can affect peoples' accounts of events.

You only have to have a look around at the various forums and see the differing opinions on the same players to get an inkling on just how unreliable it is to pass judgment on a player based solely on ones perceived observations. Then there is there is the unwillingness of people to even consider their judgment may be clouded,regardless of the evidence presented before them.

i didnt say i treat stats as foolish. i treat them with a fair degree of cynicism. big difference.
stats can tell you for instance a player is a very good kick  but your eyes tell you different usually your eyes are right.eg  a helicopter kick by a player with time and space  to a player on the lead is credited as efficient  because it went to the player but in reality the kick was poor because it gave a defender the chance to create a 50/50.

far to many almost entirely rely on stats which is folly. as you say only when used correctly in corroboration with all other factors are they of any use.

[Smokey]

rubbish  i dont want moore to play as a kp i want him played as a running  third tall type a role he is infinitely more equipped  to perform than mcguane.
moore as a kp  pppffftt. too undersized  just like mcguane. so i dont rate moore as a kp anyway.  your right i dont understand what you are trying to prove here.
as stated i dont rate mcguane MAINLY based on his deficiencies as i see them.  you may not agree thats your perogative,
i dont rate mcguane like moore as a kp option. but unlike moore  i dont rate mcguane a possible running back third tall option either.

Aaarrgghhh.  I didn't say you wanted Moore as a KPP.  I said you shouldn't judge McGuane as one for the same reasons you put up for not judging Moore as one.

[the claw]

Please list the areas that Moore is superior, then we can have a better debate.  I've given my reasons why I think McGuane is a sound proposition to persevere with - all you have done so far is demonstrated a dislike for the guy with no reason behind it.

where does one begin. pace, smarts, agility,  kicking, run, decision making. exactly the reasons why i want him as the running tall.both can be servicable as stoppers  but both lack size to regularly play kp.

[Smokey]

Please list the areas that Moore is superior, then we can have a better debate.  I've given my reasons why I think McGuane is a sound proposition to persevere with - all you have done so far is demonstrated a dislike for the guy with no reason behind it.

where does one begin. pace, smarts, agility,  kicking, run, decision making. exactly the reasons why i want him as the running tall.both can be servicable as stoppers  but both lack size to regularly play kp.

Just goes to show then that your visual perception is as prone to error as you claim my stats are.  If you think Moore is quicker over the ground, more agile, a better kick and provides more run than McGuane then I'm not going to attempt to change your mind, just say that I disagree completely and leave it at that.

[the claw]

rubbish  i dont want moore to play as a kp i want him played as a running  third tall type a role he is infinitely more equipped  to perform than mcguane.
moore as a kp  pppffftt. too undersized  just like mcguane. so i dont rate moore as a kp anyway.  your right i dont understand what you are trying to prove here.
as stated i dont rate mcguane MAINLY based on his deficiencies as i see them.  you may not agree thats your perogative,
i dont rate mcguane like moore as a kp option. but unlike moore  i dont rate mcguane a possible running back third tall option either.

Aaarrgghhh.  I didn't say you wanted Moore as a KPP.  I said you shouldn't judge McGuane as one for the same reasons you put up for not judging Moore as one.

okay so we dont rate him a kp, well i dont anyway   so what do we rate him as. ive given my reasons why i think he should not be played as a third tall.