Sack Hardwick [merged]

[torch]

So are we saying we are prepared to pee this season down the drain already ,while we play players in the hope they find form,or can fast track their development,because sure as hell I aint.

Not at all. I think the kids I'm suggesting Hardwick gives a go will improve the team both now and in the future. Was listening to Eade an he was saying development and improvement aren't mutually exclusive. We can develop some kids in the ones which will improve our team.

For example

Arnot over Lonergan
Helbig over Nahas
Dea over Petterd

Lesser Extent
McDonough over White

On Par
Griff over McGuane

Not sure who would go out but we need a 3rd KPD in Astbury.

I'm not advocating changing all at once. Just a couple at a time.

I would say these players ...

Arnot ---> Lonergan

Astbury ---> Batchelor

Griffiths ---> McGuane

Conca, Ellis ---> Grigg, Jackson/Foley

Do not play Petterd/Lonergan again.

S.Edwards should be playing in the forward pocket! Not in the midfield.

King and Nahas, one of them needs to GO and we need a genuine small forward!

McBean looks the goods so far!

[tigs2011]

I think Chappy should be in the team. We only have 2 KPD's in the team as is. There is room for one more. Astbury played well on the weekend. So did Elton. Galea usually celebrates Christmas against Coburg but only got the 2. Hard to stop the avalanche that the Coburg midfield allows. Griffiths needs a game up forward. Probably needs to find some form at Coburg there over next 3 weeks so we can unleash him against an undersized Dogs where he'd probably cop Tom Young. Problem is the ball never goes down there.

So many development issues down there. You play in the backline you've done well to stop your man kicking 5 coz the balls down there every 20 seconds. You play in the forward line and you could quite possibly die of hypothermia. So then you make the life saving change to FB and you are trying to block an avalanche with a cabin.

And finally the midfield. Or whatever you call it in between the 2 hell holes of Coburg. The RFC listed midfielders are now Helbig & Arnot. That's it. Injuries and lack of actual midfielders on our list means only Coburg listed players are left who get paid in hot dogs and cans of coke are up against AFL midfielders and guys getting a fair pay packet. It's ugly.

God forbid McBean stays in that Coburg side too long because he wasn't a 1st round pick. 

[Smokey]

Bull twang. If Griff or Astbury were playing decent footy consistantly then they would be in the team.
Bottom line is they aren't. Way too much is beig made of our recycled players. Chappy etc are playing because the young'ns are injured or aren't good enough yet. Lonergan was a mistake but the majority of our recycled players have been worth it and earnt their spots.

Aboslutely nothing wrong with making young players earn their spot through Coburg. In years gone by people complained about young players being gifted games before they're ready. Now people are saying they're not getting a chance. it's crap. Griff looks disinterested at Coburg and Astbruy is comif back from a long lay off. Arnott is close but still to erratic with skills and too hard at the man. He will play soon tho. Mcbean and Mcdonuts still very raw. This argument that the recycled players are stunting the development of our kids is horse poo and im sick of it. Some
Geelong kids have to play whole seasons in the twos becaus it's too hard to get a game int he ones. This doesn't hurt their development.

We're sucking at the moment because our senior players aren't standing up. People are scapegoating our recycled players but they need to look elsewhere.
Add Conca, Grimes and Ellis back into the side and our team is still very young.

What he said.   

[gerkin greg]

not enough of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jLf_CPU7uw

and get rid of FJ, he is a dud of epic proportions, needs new glasses

BOOOOOOOO!!!

[JVT]

not enough of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jLf_CPU7uw

and get rid of FJ, he is a dud of epic proportions, needs new glasses

BOOOOOOOO!!!

Gold.

[Stripes]

Bull twang. If Griff or Astbury were playing decent footy consistantly then they would be in the team.
Bottom line is they aren't. Way too much is beig made of our recycled players. Chappy etc are playing because the young'ns are injured or aren't good enough yet. Lonergan was a mistake but the majority of our recycled players have been worth it and earnt their spots.

Aboslutely nothing wrong with making young players earn their spot through Coburg. In years gone by people complained about young players being gifted games before they're ready. Now people are saying they're not getting a chance. it's crap. Griff looks disinterested at Coburg and Astbruy is comif back from a long lay off. Arnott is close but still to erratic with skills and too hard at the man. He will play soon tho. Mcbean and Mcdonuts still very raw. This argument that the recycled players are stunting the development of our kids is horse poo and im sick of it. Some
Geelong kids have to play whole seasons in the twos becaus it's too hard to get a game int he ones. This doesn't hurt their development.

We're sucking at the moment because our senior players aren't standing up. People are scapegoating our recycled players but they need to look elsewhere.
Add Conca, Grimes and Ellis back into the side and our team is still very young.

 

Hardwick was very strong on this point at that the beginning of the year - No more gifted games and players need to earn their spots. I believe this is why Vlaustin was given the start of the start to gain his place in the lineup.

In previous years, finding future players was the number one aim which is why we tried so many players. This is why we suffered so noticeably when Hardwick first began his tenure. We are not at a point where we need to do this again.

If a young player earns a spot, performs well playing for Coburg and a player who plays a similar role to them in the AFL team is under performing or injured then they should be called up. The biggest factor out of all of those is the first - they have earned a call up. We are always in trouble when we are forced to bring in a player through injury - ie Lonegan and Nahas last week.

Arnot, Helbig and Dea are all ready to go and have been performing well most weeks. It might be time to bring these guys in but not because they are young but more-so because they can make an immediate improvement to the team. 

[tigs2011]

Did I mistake Hardwick when he said players had to earn games? Did he just mean the younger players? I'm not saying these guys should get games because they are kids. I'm saying because they actually fit the type of players Hardwick wanted and are better players. Good kicks of the footy as well as being big bodies and tough and competitive.

Not saying all retreads out. Chaplin & Knights should be playing. Or in Knights case deserved to be playing when he was. They weren't recruited as back-up. They were recruited to fill holes in the list which is fair enough. We needed a KPD because Rance was the only one that wasn't consistently injured and Chaplin is actually a good best 22 player who is better than the younger guys we have. Though I have argued we need a 3rd KPD in the team so Astbury could come in. He has been good in a crappy Coburg team. Chaplin fits the good kick and competitive mantra so fits in the team nicely.

We needed a goal kicking half forward who could play through the midfield. We had O'Hanlon and that's it. He clearly wasn't ready yet so we needed him and Knights would still be getting a game. Knights also fits in the good kick and competitive mantra so fit in the team nicely.

If we had no injuries this wouldn't be an issue because our best 22 is pretty much full of blokes that will improve or play good footy. A couple probably need to be dropped to get a rocket but have got runs on the board in the past.

My issue was first of all Petterd playing a loose man role in the backline when he can't kick a footy. Put someone in who is ready to play and can kick as well. (Dea)

Lonergan coming in and being possibly the worst kick going around. I'm a supporter of having him on the list but this bloke did zilch to earn a game. DE of 30% before getting a game. It's not good enough and we need to demand better of him if he wants a game. Hardwick has been willing to give Helbig a game but as a back pocket on Ballantyne which isn't his natural position. So his form obviously warranted a game but as soon as Morris came back he was gone.

Then we have all the duds that we've had for years. A couple playing a role is ok like when we had McGuane at CHF and Jacko playing in the midfield. We now have a lot of them and the team has no confidence in each other.

[Stripes]

Thanks for the clarification tigs. Again you make a lot of sense. We're at a stage where we are forced to bring in players that we would otherwise prefer not to. Lonegan fits this model - desperate times it appears.  Players like McGuane, Nahas, White and Jackson must love these injury riddled times - means we they are safe from speculation because the selection panel is too busy trying to cover holes created from injuries rather than make swaps based on form.

[tigs2011]

Thanks for the clarification tigs. Again you make a lot of sense. We're at a stage where we are forced to bring in players that we would otherwise prefer not to. Lonegan fits this model - desperate times it appears.  Players like McGuane, Nahas, White and Jackson must love these injury riddled times - means we they are safe from speculation because the selection panel is too busy trying to cover holes created from injuries rather than make swaps based on form.

Yep appears we are in very desperate times. As I've made arguments for younger, more skilled players taking all those blokes spots I wouldn't want them all to change at once as we'd get spanked. 2 and max of 3 changes this week and then after that we start getting some first choice blokes back. All of a sudden our team looks good again.

One thing I wouldn't mind doing seems Griff isn't in good form to take McGuane's spot is to try just 2 forwards. Worked well last year and than was McGuane and Jack. Jack and Ty would be interesting as sole forwards. Put in an extra mid for rotations so our guns can rest as the 3rd KPF. (Martin, Lids, Cotch)

[Stripes]

Yes I have noticed that this year our midfielders have not had the same impact forward as last year (Martin was the exception last week). Cotch and Lids have had little to no impact. Having just the two talls and one of these three in all that forward space in Pattersons Stadium could be make a real difference. Even playing Lids down there early one out, Jack higher and targeting Lids leads at every opportunity could really throw out the Eagles.

In a similar vein of thought, this is the perfect chance to bring in A Edwards. He is a leading forward and his height would not be so much of a factor on this large long ground. Drop Vickery, bring in the Big O and play him back and the bench. Then bring in A Edwards to go forward.

That would be my call 

[Judge Roughneck]

First things first someone needs to be ruthless. Dimma or the club. So sick of watching underskilled hacks from other clubs and our own run around. They served a purpose at first because they stop us from being Melbourne like with no leadership so guys like Jackson etc get a game. My issue is that right now we have so many on our list that we keep playing them and it's stopping us from developing our promising kids. And yes, they are promising. Not saying throw in 10 juniors into the side and watch us get pantsed every week but blood 2 at a time. (not including Flossy because he's already pretty established) Give them 5-6 games and see if they sink or swim.

My biggest gripe with the recycled blokes is how many of them would have been drafted if they were 18 year olds under our recruiting philosophy? (Good kicks and Competitive)

2010
Bachar Houli - Good kick and has improved his competitiveness so would keep playing him is doing well.
Shaun Grigg - Can't kick and is about as uncompetitive as we have in the team. No cost to us in that trade but he wouldn't have been drafted and doesn't fit the type of player we want at the club yet gets games.
2011
Ivan Maric - Good kick when fully fit for a big fella and very competitve. Obviously needed a ruckman and was fantastic last year. Shouldn't be playing as he clearly looks injured. My fear is we have broken him already.
2012
Troy Chaplin - Decent kick and been pretty competitive so would probably just pass. Been a good pick up so far.
Chris Knights - Good kick and competitive. Probably best 22 and offered something we lack so isn't holding a kid out.
Ricky Petterd - guy competes but can't kick to save himself yet was a walk up start over Vlastuin.
Sam Lonergan - super competitive but skills, skills, skills. Wouldn't get a second look from our recruiters if he was an 18 year old draft hopeful, yet cracked a game on the weekend.
Orren Stephenson - not ever going to be a long termer but at least has a crack and is back up if Big O goes down. We haven't got a young ruck coming through outside McBean who looks like a gun forward so no harm there.
Aaron Edwards - what purpose does a 29yo 184cm FF have for our team? If we cop an injury to a KPF then a Griff/Elton/Astbury even McBean (last resort) should be getting a crack first.

The next group I want to look at is the older Richmond players who keep getting games despite not fitting the kicking profile.

Robin Nahas - too small, can't win his own ball, too slow and can't kick over a jam tin. Does he offer a big body? No. Does he offer leadership? No. Develop a kid like McDonough in his role.
Matty White - again another small who lacks skill. Doesn't seem to be a real leader and isn't a body protecting the kids. Move Edwards into his role up forward and give a kid like Arnot or Helbig a crack in the midfield.
Luke McGuane - has improved this year and given us a decent target. But is decent what we want from our CHF or do we want to try get something better than that? We have Griff, Elton, Astbury and McBean playing ressies. They won't develop at Coburg and Griff and Astbury are now 4th year players who we need to make a call on in the next year or so.
Daniel Jackson - I can actually see the purpose of why he plays as he's the one always blocking but with our game style, opponents just sag off him and let him have the ball because he's a butcher. Play him in a tagging role and get him to nullify the oppositions best player. ie. Goddard or Watson. Either that or give his spot to a Arnot/Helbig.
Shane Tuck - gives it his all and we struggle without him. We need to find a replacement in the draft soon as he won't be around forever. Feel like we can't play him and Jacko with our game style even though we should be able to. (Will elaborate later)
Shane Edwards - another who has been butchering it lately. Needs to slow himself down when kicking because his hands in traffic are great. He's a small forward though so we need to be playing him there.
Alex Rance - prone to the odd howler but as a KPD I think we can carry one or two blokes like that. Just needs to take the easy/safe option when possible.

That's 7 players in the side lacking in foot skills. Then you add Grigg & Petterd as well who've been regular members and you're nearly at half the team. Aren't we a high possession team that uses foot skills?

KIDS NOT GETTING A REGULAR GAME

Matt Dea - comes in does ok gets dropped. Comes in does ok gets dropped again. I really rate this kid but this isn't helping his confidence. His skills are good, is very good defensively, gutsy as all hell and has great touch below his knees, is as clean as anyone on the list. Give him 5 or 6 games in a row and see what he offers.

David Astbury - this guy was so good in his first year. Cool, calm and collected. Good skills, good leadership and maybe a victim of his own versatility? I'd like to see him get a game at FB (Hurley would have been a good assignment actually.) Batch isn't a KPD and is therefore inconsistent in the role but is making a decent fist of it. Adelaide game onwards and give him a crack at Jenkins.

Ben Griffiths - worst effort to develop a player I think I've seen. Kid looks shot a bit like Post actually. He's a FF and nothing else. Get rid of McGuane and move Riewoldt to CHF and let this kid play out of the square. I reckon he swapped between fwd/back about 5-6 times on Saturday. poohouse for his development. If he flunks it at FF either trade or delist by end of next year. At least give the kid a crack at it though.

Brad Helbig - midfield, midfield, MIDFIELD. He's not a small lock down defender. He's a tough, inside mid with foot skills who if playing outside the midfield is more forward than back IMO. Get rid of Nahas and play this kid. Can't do any worse and find out what he's got.

Kamdyn McIntosh - not ready yet but wouldn't mind him getting a crack in last couple of games to see what he's got. Went up a notch last year when he played at a higher level.

Liam McBean - again not ready but should get a game as a forward (very late in season) if Griff struggled in the role.

Matthew McDonough - wasn't sure on his tank but he was everywhere on Saturday. Depending on his knee I'd play him this week over White. We go up a notch in skills and he's capable of finding as much ball as Whitey.

Todd Elton - don't mind him being developed down back and would like to see him get a crack later in the year at FB. Reckon he could be our big, athletic Carlisle/Talia type defender. Unlike Griff he's played there before. I worry about his skills but Talia is an ordinary kick but has improved and as that dour defender shouldn't need to get much of the ball.

Matthew Arnot - not sold on his skills but should replace Lonergan straight away. Again, give him a block of games to see if he's up to it and if not then delist and try again.

Brett O'Hanlon - unfortunately injured but at some stage should take Grigg's spot on a wing to try him out in FULL games. Better mark and better kick but just as outside as Grigg is.

MY GRIPE

There's two major gripe's I have with Dimma and they're the reason why last night I was one of the ones advocating Paul Roos because I've lost faith in Dimma's direction.

1. "Full rebuild, no shortcuts and no gifted games". These were Dimma's words not mine. I've had no negative comments about the direction the club is heading though I have had concerns over my second point for awhile. Reason I've been positive is for 3 years we stayed the course. Dimma cut the list deep and weeded out a lot of outright spuds and got games into kids. But Dimma has now gone out and loaded up with "back-up players" from other clubs. (Petterd, Stephenson, Lonergan, Edwards, Knights) Not really disappointed with that because they are back-ups if our kids get tired or we run out of players. My issue with Dimma is he has played all these guys over the top of the kids we have been getting games into. Looking back at that list of kids (plus Batch) not getting a regular game and we have Dea (22 games), Batchelor (36), Astbury (24), Griffiths (19), Helbig (16), O'Hanlon (. These guys should have been getting another 22 games under their belts this year (injury permitting of course) But instead we've gone down the 2013/14 must make finals at all costs path. I have no doubt we will play finals either this year or next but the path Dimma is taking to me screams a 7th/8th side not a future premiership contender.

Now obviously Dimma didn't want to gift these kids games. That's fine with me. But don't bloody gift games to mature age rejects that don't deserve it either. Does Petterd deserve a game more than Dea or Batchelor? Could Batch play the Petterd role and Astbury get a game as a KPD? Does McGuane deserve a game (currently) more than a Griff/Elton/McBean? Does Lonergan deserve a game more than a Helbig or an Arnot? Does Grigg deserve a game over an O'Hanlon/Helbig? Do White/Nahas deserve games over McDonough?

*Haven't mentioned Tuck/Jackson here because in the right system they'd be fine in the team.

2. Our game plan. "The Hawthorn model." Ok, so Dimma wants us to play the Hawthorn model of keeping possession of the ball with high level of foot skills. However, looking at the 22 on the weekend the following are not capable of playing this type of game plan. Grigg, Edwards (full time midfield version), McGuane, Rance, Lonergan, Jackson, Chaplin (borderline), Nahas, White. 9/22 and you could probably add Foley to that list too. King would be borderline, though plays deep forward so not really an issue and I've cut Maric some slack as a ruck his skills aren't bad for a big fella. Nearly half the bloody side can't play the game plan we want to play. 3 of those blokes have been recruited by Dimma and the rest Dimma has had a chance to get rid of over 4 off-seasons.

My next issue with the game plan is whether or not people believe it is a finals winning game plan and then a flag winning game plan. Hawthorn despite being regular favourites for the flag have won one premiership with this model and if everyone casts their mind back Geelong should have torched them that day. Will it hold up under finals intensity against a Sydney/Freo pressure game plan? I'm far from convinced.

Hawthorn would be unlikely to have 9 players on the list that can't play the game plan let alone in the 22 on game day. We just don't have the cattle to play this way. The other thing Hawthorn have in their way is some genuine superstars (Franklin, Hodge, Mitchell) and match winners, who win games on their own. (Cyril, Franklin) We have star players and not many win a game off your own boot match winners.

Bible. 

Shane Edwards is a good kick/footballer and Rance is not a bad kick for a key back.

[tigs2011]

Excellent 

[tigs2011]

I've emailed it to Damien.

Hope he reads it and replies!

Did u get a reply? Or is the reply in the team selection?

[tigs2011]

Cam Mooney read my post. Maybe you sent it to him. Just said we play a game style that doesn't hold up in finals.  Is it 4 flags he was involved in?

[Eat_em_Alive]

3 flags, and one he didnt get a kick in. But I know full well what you meant