Our best 22 for 2020?

[tdy]

As long as they rotate the players to keep them fresh and peak at the end of the year. Given that I'd play a lot of fringe and kids in the first half of the year. The run home isn't as good but the last few premierships have been won by the team peaking in September.

[big tone]

Really hard to drop any player listed below and the question is do we need to integrate some new faces into the side? My only changes were Shorty out for Naish, Nank in for Soldo.  Naish's kicking is just that good I think he should be playing
Bloody hell, that is a tough side to break into...

B: Dylan Grimes, Alex Rance, David Astbury

HB: Bachar Houli, Nick Vlastuin, Marlion Pickett

C: Kane Lambert Dion Prestia, Josh Caddy

HF: Shai Bolton, Tom Lynch, Shane Edwards

F: Daniel Rioli, Jack Riewoldt, Jason Castagna

Foll: Toby Nankervis, Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin

I/C: Nathan Broad, Jack Graham, Patrick Naish, Sydney Stack

So Short out for Naish because he is such a good kick?? Well that makes sense

Shorty is a good long kick but Naish is a better kick, much better.  As I said, anyone out of that side is stiff but for someone to go in someone has to go out.

Naish has shown very little to date.
He is miles off our best 22- miles!

Short is a premiership player and was pretty unlucky to not being a 2x premiership player... and his kicking is elite. (Although I will admit it wasn’t at its usual high standard after he came back from his injury this year- but make no mistake he is one of the best kicks in the comp on both feet IMO)

[Assange Tiger 😎]

He's a deadly kick. Kills us with both feet....

[Diocletian]

[the claw]

Really hard to drop any player listed below and the question is do we need to integrate some new faces into the side? My only changes were Shorty out for Naish, Nank in for Soldo.  Naish's kicking is just that good I think he should be playing
Bloody hell, that is a tough side to break into...

B: Dylan Grimes, Alex Rance, David Astbury

HB: Bachar Houli, Nick Vlastuin, Marlion Pickett

C: Kane Lambert Dion Prestia, Josh Caddy

HF: Shai Bolton, Tom Lynch, Shane Edwards

F: Daniel Rioli, Jack Riewoldt, Jason Castagna

Foll: Toby Nankervis, Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin

I/C: Nathan Broad, Jack Graham, Patrick Naish, Sydney Stack

So Short out for Naish because he is such a good kick?? Well that makes sense

Shorty is a good long kick but Naish is a better kick, much better.  As I said, anyone out of that side is stiff but for someone to go in someone has to go out.

Naish has shown very little to date.
He is miles off our best 22- miles!

Short is a premiership player and was pretty unlucky to not being a 2x premiership player... and his kicking is elite. (Although I will admit it wasn’t at its usual high standard after he came back from his injury this year- but make no mistake he is one of the best kicks in the comp on both feet IMO)

He didnt play in 17 because he was too soft too outside and too panicky. He probably should not have played in 19 for the same reasons.

Houli and Ellis copped it from you for similar reasons but you leave short alone.whats good for the goose is also good for the gander.

[Dougeytherichmondfan]

Frustrating thing with Short is he played about 7-8 quality games early last season and managed to get 150-200k extra a year as a consequence. He hasn't really been able to play to that level ever since.

But I still think he is an asset and his best attributes fit our game plan quite well.

Opposition teams tend to zone up the middle of the ground when we move the ball from the backline. Frequently, Short is able to kick over the top of the forced congestion to one on ones and two on twos.

See Dusty's sharked goal off the pack v Geel.

[big tone]

Really hard to drop any player listed below and the question is do we need to integrate some new faces into the side? My only changes were Shorty out for Naish, Nank in for Soldo.  Naish's kicking is just that good I think he should be playing
Bloody hell, that is a tough side to break into...

B: Dylan Grimes, Alex Rance, David Astbury

HB: Bachar Houli, Nick Vlastuin, Marlion Pickett

C: Kane Lambert Dion Prestia, Josh Caddy

HF: Shai Bolton, Tom Lynch, Shane Edwards

F: Daniel Rioli, Jack Riewoldt, Jason Castagna

Foll: Toby Nankervis, Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin

I/C: Nathan Broad, Jack Graham, Patrick Naish, Sydney Stack

So Short out for Naish because he is such a good kick?? Well that makes sense

Shorty is a good long kick but Naish is a better kick, much better.  As I said, anyone out of that side is stiff but for someone to go in someone has to go out.

Naish has shown very little to date.
He is miles off our best 22- miles!

Short is a premiership player and was pretty unlucky to not being a 2x premiership player... and his kicking is elite. (Although I will admit it wasn’t at its usual high standard after he came back from his injury this year- but make no mistake he is one of the best kicks in the comp on both feet IMO)

He didnt play in 17 because he was too soft too outside and too panicky. He probably should not have played in 19 for the same reasons.

Houli and Ellis copped it from you for similar reasons but you leave short alone.whats good for the goose is also good for the gander.

I’m happy to say you and I are miles apart on what we think of our players.
If it were up to you, we would change half our premiership side with kids that have done FA.
But the truth be know, you watch our games on TV and in term you see players through a keyhole.

Houli and Ellis are soft IMO so I say it, in fact I reckon I was the only one saying it about Ellis at one point, but not anymore, and I don’t think Short is in anyway soft and going off past experiences you know I would say it if I saw it, but I don’t. Pretty simple.

[the claw]

Really hard to drop any player listed below and the question is do we need to integrate some new faces into the side? My only changes were Shorty out for Naish, Nank in for Soldo.  Naish's kicking is just that good I think he should be playing
Bloody hell, that is a tough side to break into...

B: Dylan Grimes, Alex Rance, David Astbury

HB: Bachar Houli, Nick Vlastuin, Marlion Pickett

C: Kane Lambert Dion Prestia, Josh Caddy

HF: Shai Bolton, Tom Lynch, Shane Edwards

F: Daniel Rioli, Jack Riewoldt, Jason Castagna

Foll: Toby Nankervis, Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin

I/C: Nathan Broad, Jack Graham, Patrick Naish, Sydney Stack

So Short out for Naish because he is such a good kick?? Well that makes sense

Shorty is a good long kick but Naish is a better kick, much better.  As I said, anyone out of that side is stiff but for someone to go in someone has to go out.

Naish has shown very little to date.
He is miles off our best 22- miles!

Short is a premiership player and was pretty unlucky to not being a 2x premiership player... and his kicking is elite. (Although I will admit it wasn’t at its usual high standard after he came back from his injury this year- but make no mistake he is one of the best kicks in the comp on both feet IMO)

He didnt play in 17 because he was too soft too outside and too panicky. He probably should not have played in 19 for the same reasons.

Houli and Ellis copped it from you for similar reasons but you leave short alone.whats good for the goose is also good for the gander.

I’m happy to say you and I are miles apart on what we think of our players.
If it were up to you, we would change half our premiership side with kids that have done FA.
But the truth be know, you watch our games on TV and in term you see players through a keyhole.

Houli and Ellis are soft IMO so I say it, in fact I reckon I was the only one saying it about Ellis at one point, but not anymore, and I don’t think Short is in anyway soft and going off past experiences you know I would say it if I saw it, but I don’t. Pretty simple.

Take the blinkers off bud hes as soft as they come.Almost Ellis like.

Im happy to be miles apart from everyone else. Always have and always will. I dont like pack animals.
NO i dont want the team replaced by kids i want the bottom half dozen replaced by BETTER players weather that is kids or mature recruits. So dont put freakin words in my mouth.

By the way Houli, who you despise so much  is ten fold the player OF Short  despite his limitations including being soft, says hello having achieved A/A.If Short becomes half the player this bloke is then it will be an improvement.

Finally the key hole view, it makes one really focus on detail.But just for you while i dont see all the games live most seasons i still see
4 or 5 or so which gives an opportunity to corroborate what you do see on the tele. Spotting a soft squib is always easy bto see.

[big tone]

Really hard to drop any player listed below and the question is do we need to integrate some new faces into the side? My only changes were Shorty out for Naish, Nank in for Soldo.  Naish's kicking is just that good I think he should be playing
Bloody hell, that is a tough side to break into...

B: Dylan Grimes, Alex Rance, David Astbury

HB: Bachar Houli, Nick Vlastuin, Marlion Pickett

C: Kane Lambert Dion Prestia, Josh Caddy

HF: Shai Bolton, Tom Lynch, Shane Edwards

F: Daniel Rioli, Jack Riewoldt, Jason Castagna

Foll: Toby Nankervis, Dustin Martin, Trent Cotchin

I/C: Nathan Broad, Jack Graham, Patrick Naish, Sydney Stack

So Short out for Naish because he is such a good kick?? Well that makes sense

Shorty is a good long kick but Naish is a better kick, much better.  As I said, anyone out of that side is stiff but for someone to go in someone has to go out.

Naish has shown very little to date.
He is miles off our best 22- miles!

Short is a premiership player and was pretty unlucky to not being a 2x premiership player... and his kicking is elite. (Although I will admit it wasn’t at its usual high standard after he came back from his injury this year- but make no mistake he is one of the best kicks in the comp on both feet IMO)

He didnt play in 17 because he was too soft too outside and too panicky. He probably should not have played in 19 for the same reasons.

Houli and Ellis copped it from you for similar reasons but you leave short alone.whats good for the goose is also good for the gander.

I’m happy to say you and I are miles apart on what we think of our players.
If it were up to you, we would change half our premiership side with kids that have done FA.
But the truth be know, you watch our games on TV and in term you see players through a keyhole.

Houli and Ellis are soft IMO so I say it, in fact I reckon I was the only one saying it about Ellis at one point, but not anymore, and I don’t think Short is in anyway soft and going off past experiences you know I would say it if I saw it, but I don’t. Pretty simple.

Take the blinkers off bud hes as soft as they come.Almost Ellis like.

Im happy to be miles apart from everyone else. Always have and always will. I dont like pack animals.
NO i dont want the team replaced by kids i want the bottom half dozen replaced by BETTER players weather that is kids or mature recruits. So dont put freakin words in my mouth.

By the way Houli, who you despise so much  is ten fold the player OF Short  despite his limitations including being soft, says hello having achieved A/A.If Short becomes half the player this bloke is then it will be an improvement.

Finally the key hole view, it makes one really focus on detail.But just for you while i dont see all the games live most seasons i still see
4 or 5 or so which gives an opportunity to corroborate what you do see on the tele. Spotting a soft squib is always easy bto see.

No blinkers on mate- I just don’t think Short is soft.
Happy for you to disagree but I’m interested to know if you think he is a good kick as some don’t?

On Houli, I don’t despise him at at, I just don’t think he is a good defender.
And I’m pretty sure you have agreed with that on more than one occasion. And just because he made the AA side doesn’t change that fact.
Let’s be honest if you can’t rack up kicks playing a loose man across halfback in the best side in the league with the best backline in the league, you shouldn’t be in the AFL.
I’m actually happy for him and hope with Bellis gone he moves further up the ground onto a wing.

We have won 2 premierships in 3 years, why the hell would you need to make wholesale changes to our side before any of our kids are knocking the door down? You mentioned about 7 players in your earlier post of player we should replace?? Do you see how stupid that is??

And lastly 5 time AA defender and in the discussion as one of the greatest KPD in the games history Alex Rance says hi!!
What was it again??

[The Machine]

Short soft? Me thinks not

[the claw]

lol nothing stupid about wanting improvement and its a possibility with the players we have in the wings.

Lets start with those who did not play in the g/f

Rance - Yep that 5 times A/A who did have some serious issues early in his career is a walk up start.

Graham - if not for injury would have played.

Stack -  was in the mix but injury came at the wrong time. No injury he would have played.He is a miles better option across h/b than Short. He at least has a presence is hard at it can at least defend an opponent and is no slouch with ball in hand.

Ross - was great before injury cost him, you dont think he will be a regular after another preseason. i disagree and its not as silly as you think.He too was in the mix for the g/f along with McIntosh.

Pickett -  who played one game all yr and probably would not have played in the g/f if not for injuries to others. He  wont be going anywhere so that means a regular from this yr will miss out.

Thats 5 of 7 players i mentioned and you think they are no chance or arent better options than the likes of Short.

The others mentioned,  Balta played 13 games,  last time i looked thats a majority of games for the yr. With continued development you dont think  he will improve or we dont need to get games into him.But hey thats just stupid to think that way.

Who else CC-J Third yr in,  i reckon he is good for games he offers a genuine difference to Soldo and Nankervis as does Chol.They both offer far  more as fwds and can play second fiddle in the ruck to one of the others.

Finally and yes its acknowledged RC-D didnt do a lot this yr and was spoken about along the lines  if he could take a step up they will likely put games into him. Just my opinion but i think we need some bigger bodied mids flankers  in the team and theres only really Ross and RC-D in development.

To answer you on Houli. You think Short is a good defender!!!!! Again you criticise Houli for the same issues Short has.yep i have always had issues with Houli's  ability to defend and he has had his issues with softness. But as i have constantly said i think hes a better option than Short, Bellis Baker they all have flaws as defenders.Its one reason why im so keen to see a player like Stack or Pickett play back there instead.Its called improvement.

Unlike you i obviously think there is plenty of room for improvement and think there is a real need to continue to get games into the younger players as often as possible.
Missing from 17
Rance,Graham,  Townsend, Butler, McIntosh, Grigg. Our next flag team will be missing players from 19. atm it could easily be 4 or 5 and thats without any newbies on the list.
For me Short is definately in the bottom 6 and thus in the gun.We have on our list players who just give more in more areas without the defensive issues and they can get a bit of ball forthemselves and do lay tackles.

[big tone]

lol nothing stupid about wanting improvement and its a possibility with the players we have in the wings.

Lets start with those who did not play in the g/f

Rance - Yep that 5 times A/A who did have some serious issues early in his career is a walk up start.

Graham - if not for injury would have played.

Stack -  was in the mix but injury came at the wrong time. No injury he would have played.He is a miles better option across h/b than Short. He at least has a presence is hard at it can at least defend an opponent and is no slouch with ball in hand.

Ross - was great before injury cost him, you dont think he will be a regular after another preseason. i disagree and its not as silly as you think.He too was in the mix for the g/f along with McIntosh.

Pickett -  who played one game all yr and probably would not have played in the g/f if not for injuries to others. He  wont be going anywhere so that means a regular from this yr will miss out.

Thats 5 of 7 players i mentioned and you think they are no chance or arent better options than the likes of Short.

The others mentioned,  Balta played 13 games,  last time i looked thats a majority of games for the yr. With continued development you dont think  he will improve or we dont need to get games into him.But hey thats just stupid to think that way.

Who else CC-J Third yr in,  i reckon he is good for games he offers a genuine difference to Soldo and Nankervis as does Chol.They both offer far  more as fwds and can play second fiddle in the ruck to one of the others.

Finally and yes its acknowledged RC-D didnt do a lot this yr and was spoken about along the lines  if he could take a step up they will likely put games into him. Just my opinion but i think we need some bigger bodied mids flankers  in the team and theres only really Ross and RC-D in development.

To answer you on Houli. You think Short is a good defender!!!!! Again you criticise Houli for the same issues Short has.yep i have always had issues with Houli's  ability to defend and he has had his issues with softness. But as i have constantly said i think hes a better option than Short, Bellis Baker they all have flaws as defenders.Its one reason why im so keen to see a player like Stack or Pickett play back there instead.Its called improvement.

Unlike you i obviously think there is plenty of room for improvement and think there is a real need to continue to get games into the younger players as often as possible.
Missing from 17
Rance,Graham,  Townsend, Butler, McIntosh, Grigg. Our next flag team will be missing players from 19. atm it could easily be 4 or 5 and thats without any newbies on the list.
For me Short is definately in the bottom 6 and thus in the gun.We have on our list players who just give more in more areas without the defensive issues and they can get a bit of ball forthemselves and do lay tackles.

I don’t think many will argue about Rance, Stack and Graham. But during any year you need at least another 3 or 4 that can slot in when injuries hit. So let’s call it best 25 for 2020.

All your others you mentioned have done FA compared to the GF side and those other 3 already mentioned.

I see you didn’t mention Chol in your most recent post but did in your original one. Pretty convenient.

So what makes you think any of Chol, Balta, Ross, CCJ, and RCD are in our best 22 which is what the thread is asking in front of the 22 that played in the GF and the other 3 mentioned?


Also in your posted you are basically saying you except Houli and his lack of defending and yet you don’t rate Short for the same reason even though Short is younger and clearly a much better and more damaging kick. So which is it, you except one but not the other??

You also compared Stack to Short at halfback, but if you did the same comparison against Houli you would come up with the same result. Agree??

Short is 23 and play 70 odd games, do you not think he could improve just like any of the 5 you have said are in our best 22 for 2020?

Every year you come out with a list like you did recently but the reality is we have been the best side the past 3 years and our premiership sides are young. Sure we need our kids to improve but they have a long way to go before the replace 99% of our current premiership, best 25 players.

[the claw]

Lol you need to read a bit better i did mention chol in the same passage as CCJ.
So ross has done sweet f/a fair enough you have not watched him then id say.he was in the mix for the g/f for Geez sakes.
So what makes me think some of those ive named are better options than some who played in the g/f. Id suggest you actually read the post and you will have your answer.
Balta 13 games and i anticipate  stuff yeah i expect him to improve and go past some average players forgive me for thinking that way but bottom six players are bottom six for a reason.

Lets me do this one more time just for you as your comprhension seems to be lacking when your bfavorites are questioned.
You tell me if if these players are not an upgrade or a better way to go. After all all clubs are looking for a way to keep on getting better.

Rance for broad. Tall for a tall. Is that not an upgrade
Stack for Scaredy pants Short lol there is no comparison and one of them has only played 15 odd games.
Pickett for Ellis No brainer
Graham for Baker fmd its another  no brainer.
Martin, Edwards, Lambert, Pickett etc etc for Rioli a bloke you your self have been critical of. Im sure even you can see the point of difference.
CC-J or Chol for one of the dinosaurs, (good description imo)  nankervis , Soldo,  they both offer more as a fwd but can give a decent chop out to one of the others in the ruck.
I agree neither of these two have done a hell of a lot but when push comes to shove, CC-J in particular has not played, apart from the odd game  at the top leve. In anyones  language  he projects as the best ruckman we have!!!!.  Like it or not he  is at a stage where we should be playing him.
It seems to me its all about right now with you but we all know to stay consistently in the ball park over a long period then its also about the long term.
We are limited in chasing top end talent early because of where we finish.

 so the focus has to be on improving the bottom 6.You dont like to hear it but Short is very much a bottom 6 player and its JUST AN OPINION we have better options within our ranks.

Your argument about weather some of those named have done more than those who played, no argument. For me i have little doubt though that those i have  named above  will be better players and options and they are are not that far away.Yet you think thats stupid.Each to his own id say.I do know one thing all premiership sides have their fair share of lets call em average players its the simple reason why premiership sides change so much in a short space of time.

Lastly im sorry to to offend your sensibilities but not every one agrees with your sentiments about players,  not everyone thinks just because some of them were in the right place at the right time and won a flag they  deserve to play in front of those coming thru.

Id be interested to know who you think of the 22 premiership players in 2019 are in the bottom 6.

[Rodgerramjet]

B: Dylan Grimes, Alex Rance, David Astbury
HB: Nathan Broad, Nick Vlastuin, Sydney Stack
C: Bachar Houli , Trent Cotchin, Josh Caddy
HF: Shai Bolton, Tom Lynch, Shane Edwards
F: Daniel Rioli, Jack Riewoldt, Jason Castagna
Foll: Toby Nankervis, Dustin Martin, Dion Prestia
I/C: Ivan Soldo, Jack Graham, Kane Lambert, Jack Ross

[big tone]

Lol you need to read a bit better i did mention chol in the same passage as CCJ.
So ross has done sweet f/a fair enough you have not watched him then id say.he was in the mix for the g/f for Geez sakes.
So what makes me think some of those ive named are better options than some who played in the g/f. Id suggest you actually read the post and you will have your answer.
Balta 13 games and i anticipate  stuff yeah i expect him to improve and go past some average players forgive me for thinking that way but bottom six players are bottom six for a reason.

Lets me do this one more time just for you as your comprhension seems to be lacking when your bfavorites are questioned.
You tell me if if these players are not an upgrade or a better way to go. After all all clubs are looking for a way to keep on getting better.

Rance for broad. Tall for a tall. Is that not an upgrade
Stack for Scaredy pants Short lol there is no comparison and one of them has only played 15 odd games.
Pickett for Ellis No brainer
Graham for Baker fmd its another  no brainer.
Martin, Edwards, Lambert, Pickett etc etc for Rioli a bloke you your self have been critical of. Im sure even you can see the point of difference.
CC-J or Chol for one of the dinosaurs, (good description imo)  nankervis , Soldo,  they both offer more as a fwd but can give a decent chop out to one of the others in the ruck.
I agree neither of these two have done a hell of a lot but when push comes to shove, CC-J in particular has not played, apart from the odd game  at the top leve. In anyones  language  he projects as the best ruckman we have!!!!.  Like it or not he  is at a stage where we should be playing him.
It seems to me its all about right now with you but we all know to stay consistently in the ball park over a long period then its also about the long term.
We are limited in chasing top end talent early because of where we finish.

 so the focus has to be on improving the bottom 6.You dont like to hear it but Short is very much a bottom 6 player and its JUST AN OPINION we have better options within our ranks.

Your argument about weather some of those named have done more than those who played, no argument. For me i have little doubt though that those i have  named above  will be better players and options and they are are not that far away.Yet you think thats stupid.Each to his own id say.I do know one thing all premiership sides have their fair share of lets call em average players its the simple reason why premiership sides change so much in a short space of time.

Lastly im sorry to to offend your sensibilities but not every one agrees with your sentiments about players,  not everyone thinks just because some of them were in the right place at the right time and won a flag they  deserve to play in front of those coming thru.

Id be interested to know who you think of the 22 premiership players in 2019 are in the bottom 6.

My bottom six in terms of who I would look to replace first or need to show more to keep their spot are
In order
Ellis (obviously)
Soldo (we can do better but players behind him will need to show more than what they currently have)
Broad (ok player but may find it hard to keep his spot with Rance back)
Pickett (I haven’t seen enough of him to really comment properly)
Rioli (he has done FA in the past 2 seasons)
Houli (getting towards the end and that will come quickly IMO)

I think Baker will be a star and I think Short, Bolton and George will play 150 plus games for the club. These guys are long term players IMO- you will have to be good to push these guys out.

So round 1 next year if all fit, I would say changes to our best 22 from the GF side are
Rance for Broad
Stack for Ellis
and
Graham for Pickett maybe??