Tiger critics off mark - Wallace

[one-eyed]

Following on from the Coachlotto article in the Age today   http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/coachlotto/2007/04/19/1176697004281.html

AFL - First Coach To Go
   
Dean Laidley 2.25     
 
All Coaches In Current Positions When Round 22 Commences 3.50     
 
Mark Thompson  7.00     
 
Denis Pagan  10.00     
 
Chris Connolly 13.00     
 
Alastair Clarkson  13.00     
 
Mick Malthouse  13.00     
 
Neale Daniher  13.00     
 
Terry Wallace  26.00     
 
Leigh Matthews  34.00     
 
Kevin Sheedy  41.00     
 
Mark Williams  51.00     
 
Neil Craig 61.00     
 
Ross Lyon  101.00     
 
Rodney Eade 151.00     
 
John Worsfold  151.00     
 
Paul Roos  151.00   

[one-eyed]

Grant Thomas' view of the handling of Plough's 2011 plan....

Speaking of focus, we are seeing the after-effects of Terry Wallace's "long-term" strategic plans for Richmond. "Plough" feels victimised by the media who misconstrued his privileged information and twisting it into something it was never meant to be.

Wallace is to be congratulated for his transparency in allowing the media and public into the Tigers' forward planning. Terry is a skilled media performer and introduced his own media conferences at a time when most coaches were trying to find excuses to get out of them.

The concern in providing this information is the effect it has on the current playing group. Perhaps the players needed to be informed about the strategy of informing all and sundry — perhaps they were. I cannot help but think it has had a significant mental effect on the Tigers when the game is in the balance. This theory is backed up by their recent performances. The general consensus would be not to expect too much over the next few years from the Tiges — unfortunately, that can send the wrong message to the players.

http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/news/selfcontrolled-teams-are-masters-of-own-destiny/2007/04/21/1176697155200.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

[Tiger Spirit]

l think some of you dont understand the term REBUILDING a club & its playing list

there is still alot of work to be done you just cant become a coach & put together a new coaching staff & fix things in a few years
It needs to be done over a long period …

Maybe I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I understand plenty, Tigermonk.  There is a lot of work to do.  However, there’s more to coaching than simply adopting a game plan and waiting for the young players to gain experience, which is what TW’s approach seems to be based on.  Just waiting for the right circumstances to arrive.  Where’s the evidence that suggests otherwise?

In part, it does take time to make things happen, no question.  However there’s the other side to developing players that RFC simply doesn’t have a handle on.  Even when our list is where it should be, how can we have the confidence to know that our players can produce anything other than limited results, unless they have the tools to take them to the level required?  It’s all well and good to put in the work, but if the energy is being put into the wrong areas then it’s unreasonable to expect to see improvement further down the track, when there’s barely a hint of improvement now.  I’m not expecting anything out of the ordinary here, just a hint that the Club has a clue.

RFC and TW have done a lot of talking lately, but none of it convinces me of anything.

The true evidence that RFC knows how to develop a team is by the traits they display out on the field.  And from what we’ve seen so far, our players are no more advanced than they were three seasons ago.

I don’t need to wait until 2011 to know how good we’ll be then.  I already know, because, regardless of whether we have the ideal list at the moment, you can tell that we’ve done nothing of any significance to instill in our players the traits and habits that can bring about sustained improvement, now or ever.

Denis Pagan has got more out of his players, even though their list was way behind ours a couple of seasons ago, to the point where they are so far in front of us now it’s laughable.  Even at their worst, they could still generate enough passion and spirit amongst their players to win games of footy.  On the other hand, we simply need to wait for the right time and the right set of circumstances so that we can get results.

People can point to recruiting and whatever else, the fact of the matter is that RFC was and still is living in la la land, when it comes to developing players.  And until this changes then we can recruit the cream of the crop for the next 10 years, and it will change nothing of any significance.  Only bring more frustration.

[Tiger Spirit]

The concern in providing this information is the effect it has on the current playing group. Perhaps the players needed to be informed about the strategy of informing all and sundry — perhaps they were. I cannot help but think it has had a significant mental effect on the Tigers when the game is in the balance. This theory is backed up by their recent performances. The general consensus would be not to expect too much over the next few years from the Tiges — unfortunately, that can send the wrong message to the players.

It can only send the wrong message if TW is more a list manager than coach.  He seems to know how to work the system to get the players he wants to carry out his game plan(s) and he can manufacture wins from nowhere.  What he doesn’t seem to know is how to get the absolute best out of his players.  That’s not necessarily a criticism, it’s just the way it is, and it’s that way for other AFL coaches too.  But, somehow, other clubs seem to work around that and have a way of instilling in their players the traits and habits that can allow their players to carry out a game plan under pressure.

Where, in anything we have seen so far, do our players look like they are capable of that, or do they look any more advanced than before TW arrived?

No doubt there is improvement in some areas, but the fact that TW has his players adopt a style of game that doesn’t suit them supports the theory that he’s not a coach in the true sense of the word.  Because if he were then he would make the game plan suit his players, rather than wait until such time as the playing list suits his style of game.  Nevertheless, this isn’t a bag TW session.

And anyway, that’s not where all the problem are.  I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again, and I'll keep saying it until there's no need to; RFC needs to wake up to itself because we’re no better off now than we were 2 and 3 seasons ago.

And until such time as RFC implements a program that can get the best out of players then we’re all wasting our time trying to work out what’s wrong and who’s at fault.

We can wait for the system to bring us better players and for time to put experience into them, but it’s more than just embarrassing that in the time RFC has bumbled its way through quarter of a century, most other clubs out there have fallen and risen up the ladder.  If other clubs can do it why can’t RFC?

Whether it’s through sheer stubbornness, ignorance, or purely because of financial reasons, who knows.  Whatever the reason, I wish they would get some people in there with people skills, who know how to work with players and communicate with them at a level that goes beyond barking instructions, and just expecting players to be able to carry out orders and win games.  Honestly, the way some Clubs and coaches go about it is simply mind boggling, disheartening and soul destroying.  They’re people not robots.  Do you reckon some of them know that, or even care?

I was disillusioned at the end of last season, and have seen nothing to change that to now.  Please RFC, wake up will ya.  We recruit players with ability and turn it into mush, and nothing more than cannon fodder for the media and supporters out there.

[mightytiges]

Top post TS  

It can only send the wrong message if TW is more a list manager than coach.  He seems to know how to work the system to get the players he wants to carry out his game plan(s) and he can manufacture wins from nowhere.  What he doesn’t seem to know is how to get the absolute best out of his players.  That’s not necessarily a criticism, it’s just the way it is, and it’s that way for other AFL coaches too.  But, somehow, other clubs seem to work around that and have a way of instilling in their players the traits and habits that can allow their players to carry out a game plan under pressure.

Where, in anything we have seen so far, do our players look like they are capable of that, or do they look any more advanced than before TW arrived?

No doubt there is improvement in some areas, but the fact that TW has his players adopt a style of game that doesn’t suit them supports the theory that he’s not a coach in the true sense of the word.  Because if he were then he would make the game plan suit his players, rather than wait until such time as the playing list suits his style of game.  Nevertheless, this isn’t a bag TW session.

A gameplan needs to set individual and team rules but it can't be too inflexible that it stifles the players own flair and creativity. There needs to be a balance between the two.

We seem to go through a cycle of a new coach coming in and our players lift to a certain degree for a year or two before going back into the same old bad habits until we blame and offload the coach and bring in another new coach and they lift and fall again.

Watching training I believe our coaches are too soft on our players or at least tolerate bad habits when they shouldn't. Our senior players like those at the top clubs should also be tough on these things with our young players to set a high standard but sadly they are some of the main culprits come gameday . It's at training especially over summer that these bad habits need to be cracked down on. I know there are those well known on here who think Plough and the gameplan suck   but IMHO they are letting the players off in their responsibility. Whatever the gameplan you still weigh up and play the percentages and you still need to work hard off the ball. You don't need a coach to tell you that especially if your a senior player with many years in the system. Most Tiger players don't appear to get it or are just plain lazy.

The other bad habit at Richmond as you mentioned TS is we as a club talk publicly too much before we can walk and end up with our foot in our mouth. IMO this is a reflection of still a poor attitude within the club as far as how we view and judge where we are at. Good clubs shut up and let their footy do the talking. They don't make everyone cringe by going on about gaining respect and all this other garbage we say prior to round 1  .

[Tiger Spirit]

A gameplan needs to set individual and team rules but it can't be too inflexible that it stifles the players own flair and creativity. There needs to be a balance between the two.

We seem to go through a cycle of a new coach coming in and our players lift to a certain degree for a year or two before going back into the same old bad habits until we blame and offload the coach and bring in another new coach and they lift and fall again.

Even with my limited knowledge, from the outset, I couldn’t understand why we would adopt a style that requires a level of skill, confidence and ability we wouldn’t seem to have.  Just as annoying to me is that it seems an unnatural way to play football.  And is it my imagination, or does it seem like players have to learn how to play football all over again, once they become AFL players?  They learn one way through their junior careers and then have to learn all over again once in the AFL system?  Just seems like crazy and unnecessary stuff to me.

If players lose confidence and form playing a style that’s foreign to them then where’s the responsibility from the coaches to ensure that doesn’t happen?  Who and what are they actually concerned about?  There are no guarantees with any player, but where’s the club’s responsibility to ensure players show a degree of consistent and sustained improvement?  If players aren’t up to it then there’s not a lot anyone can do about that.  But, RFC seems to put it back on the system and the cost involved in letting players go, etc., etc.  At this rate, 2011 seems a bit ambitious.

Don’t mean to be so critical, but even allowing for the fact that sometimes you need to go backwards in order to go forwards; given RFC’s methods, I fail to see how and when sustained improvement is going to be a reality for any of our players.

Watching training I believe our coaches are too soft on our players or at least tolerate bad habits when they shouldn't. Our senior players like those at the top clubs should also be tough on these things with our young players to set a high standard but sadly they are some of the main culprits come gameday . It's at training especially over summer that these bad habits need to be cracked down on. I know there are those well known on here who think Plough and the gameplan suck  but IMHO they are letting the players off in their responsibility.

Each player has to take responsibility for their part, no question, but if we were all disciplined enough to push ourselves to do the things we need to do then there would be no need for coaches.  And if the coaches are accepting of these traits and habits you mention, MT, then why should the players change or do any more than they need to?  It’s human nature for us to test the boundaries, and if there are no set boundaries then we simply create our own.  The problem is there never seems to be any real consequences for players and so the boundaries just continue to be extended.

I know some of it comes back to the vicious cycle that we don’t have the depth to replace players, but if anything is to change in the future then RFC needs to start doing something different to this.  Right now, and not when we have the ‘ideal’ list in place.

The other bad habit at Richmond as you mentioned TS is we as a club talk publicly too much before we can walk and end up with our foot in our mouth. IMO this is a reflection of still a poor attitude within the club as far as how we view and judge where we are at. Good clubs shut up and let their footy do the talking. They don't make everyone cringe by going on about gaining respect and all this other garbage we say prior to round 1  .

Amen to that MT.  I was always taught, ‘less talk, more work’.

[Mini Tiger]

Coach to go, Daniher to Essendon, Sheedy to retire gracefully after a finals campaign....

who to coach the Dees... Garry Lyon ?  No, maybe.... Grant Thomas or Danny Frawley... 


Nah, I reckon, Laidly the most likely...

[mightytiges]

Even with my limited knowledge, from the outset, I couldn’t understand why we would adopt a style that requires a level of skill, confidence and ability we wouldn’t seem to have.  Just as annoying to me is that it seems an unnatural way to play football.  And is it my imagination, or does it seem like players have to learn how to play football all over again, once they become AFL players?  They learn one way through their junior careers and then have to learn all over again once in the AFL system?  Just seems like crazy and unnecessary stuff to me.

The game has changed at AFL level. Gone from a long kicking game to a short passing one due to the advancement in fitness, mass bench rotations and defensive tactics and techniques.  You'll find the number of effective kicks on average competition wide in the AFL has fallen in the past 10 years due to this. Soccer went through the same thing and it took an emphasis on elite skills to counter it. It's more risk analysis in some ways than sport if you know what I mean.

The pendulum in the AFL will swing back in time to a more attacking game but you'll need elite skills and footy smarts to do it. The days of the likes of Duncan and Gas having a long AFL career are gone. You need to recruit/draft players with elite skills especially by foot and a elite footy brain. You're wasting your time otherwise no matter what other attributes they bring to your club.

If players lose confidence and form playing a style that’s foreign to them then where’s the responsibility from the coaches to ensure that doesn’t happen?  Who and what are they actually concerned about?  There are no guarantees with any player, but where’s the club’s responsibility to ensure players show a degree of consistent and sustained improvement?  If players aren’t up to it then there’s not a lot anyone can do about that.  But, RFC seems to put it back on the system and the cost involved in letting players go, etc., etc.  At this rate, 2011 seems a bit ambitious.

Don’t mean to be so critical, but even allowing for the fact that sometimes you need to go backwards in order to go forwards; given RFC’s methods, I fail to see how and when sustained improvement is going to be a reality for any of our players.

Players need to understand why they need to play this "modern" strategic style. It needs to be intuitive too within the team rules. Watch the game and weigh up the player with the footy's options and where they should go:

1) Kick long to contest = 50/50. Too risky from a mark/free kick situation as there's a 1 in 2 chance the ball will end up going back over your head for a opposition goal. Worse than 50/50 if the opposition has a loose man back and double teams the intended receiver;
2) Kick short sideways or backwards inside defensive 50 = 95% conversion but you haven't gone anywhere as a team. Too safe if you're attacking but if you want to maintain control of the ball or set up an attack again in the centre corridor or stop the momentum of the opposition if they have a run then a necessary evil;
3) Kick a medium pass to a teammate leading hard into space = say a probability of 70% but it he can then get the ball moving quicky then it opens up the play and hence the opposition's defence to score a goal or give space to the forwards to lead into.

That's the game now. It's strategy as much as footy. Players need to think their way through the game. They need to be able to read it 2-3 plays ahead. Many of our players either don't or can't understand the strategy behind what they are doing. Either way they appear confused and get themselves into trouble.

Sure it's simpler for a player to just get the ball and bomb it forward to a contest like in the old days but those days are gone as it's more often than not a poor percentage option that will end up in a turnover.

Each player has to take responsibility for their part, no question, but if we were all disciplined enough to push ourselves to do the things we need to do then there would be no need for coaches.  And if the coaches are accepting of these traits and habits you mention, MT, then why should the players change or do any more than they need to?  It’s human nature for us to test the boundaries, and if there are no set boundaries then we simply create our own.  The problem is there never seems to be any real consequences for players and so the boundaries just continue to be extended.

I know some of it comes back to the vicious cycle that we don’t have the depth to replace players, but if anything is to change in the future then RFC needs to start doing something different to this.  Right now, and not when we have the ‘ideal’ list in place.

Agree TS but I was more talking about during a game when the players need to make the correct decisions as well as execute them. As much as the coach can instruct and demand, it's the player with the footy who has the final say in this situation. A player especially a senior player should be aware of poor percentage options. Kicking blindly and lazily up in the air to a Bulldog inside our forward 50 is one of them  . 

[Tigermonk]

l think some of you dont understand the term REBUILDING a club & its playing list

there is still alot of work to be done you just cant become a coach & put together a new coaching staff & fix things in a few years
It needs to be done over a long period …

Maybe I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I understand plenty, Tigermonk.  There is a lot of work to do.  However, there’s more to coaching than simply adopting a game plan and waiting for the young players to gain experience, which is what TW’s approach seems to be based on.  Just waiting for the right circumstances to arrive.  Where’s the evidence that suggests otherwise?

In part, it does take time to make things happen, no question.  However there’s the other side to developing players that RFC simply doesn’t have a handle on.  Even when our list is where it should be, how can we have the confidence to know that our players can produce anything other than limited results, unless they have the tools to take them to the level required?  It’s all well and good to put in the work, but if the energy is being put into the wrong areas then it’s unreasonable to expect to see improvement further down the track, when there’s barely a hint of improvement now.  I’m not expecting anything out of the ordinary here, just a hint that the Club has a clue.

RFC and TW have done a lot of talking lately, but none of it convinces me of anything.

The true evidence that RFC knows how to develop a team is by the traits they display out on the field.  And from what we’ve seen so far, our players are no more advanced than they were three seasons ago.

I don’t need to wait until 2011 to know how good we’ll be then.  I already know, because, regardless of whether we have the ideal list at the moment, you can tell that we’ve done nothing of any significance to instill in our players the traits and habits that can bring about sustained improvement, now or ever.

Denis Pagan has got more out of his players, even though their list was way behind ours a couple of seasons ago, to the point where they are so far in front of us now it’s laughable.  Even at their worst, they could still generate enough passion and spirit amongst their players to win games of footy.  On the other hand, we simply need to wait for the right time and the right set of circumstances so that we can get results.

People can point to recruiting and whatever else, the fact of the matter is that RFC was and still is living in la la land, when it comes to developing players.  And until this changes then we can recruit the cream of the crop for the next 10 years, and it will change nothing of any significance.  Only bring more frustration.

??? & where is Carlton they lose 1 player & they crash back to earth & Fevola loses his head

but when you take players from the top 22 out of your lineup in the likes of Coughlan, Brown, Knobel, Thursfield, Simmonds, Hall, Hartigan, & a few others where would Richmond really be in your eyes if they were all on the ground that we would like l'm sure the results would be far different
we are not getting belted by 100 points with these players missing

so you must think really bad of teams like Bulldogs, Saints, Demons, & others who have flogged us & not got any silverware in all them years l dont hear there supporters screaming like some tigers supporters

[wayne]

but when you take players from the top 22 out of your lineup in the likes of Coughlan, Brown, Knobel, Thursfield, Simmonds, Hall, Hartigan, & a few others where would Richmond really be in your eyes if they were all on the ground that we would like l'm sure the results would be far different
we are not getting belted by 100 points with these players missing

Coughlan can't kick, Knobel is a dud, Hall is a dud and Hartigan has bad skills.

We're not good enough and that's a fact. Would you want us to be 3-1 or 2-2, wall-papering over the cracks, or 0-4 and we're finally realising that it's not the young guys who aren't good enough, it's the senior players and their bad skills that are hurting us.

This years theme is 'Generation Next - The Tiger Movement' so lets get the kids in.

P. Bowden kicks 5, J. Riewoldt kicks 5. They bring in P. Bowden and he does nothing, they could have brought in J. Riewoldt and he might have done nothing, but he is the future, he has plenty of enthusiasm and would be getting experience.

[mightytiges]

??? & where is Carlton they lose 1 player & they crash back to earth & Fevola loses his head

but when you take players from the top 22 out of your lineup in the likes of Coughlan, Brown, Knobel, Thursfield, Simmonds, Hall, Hartigan, & a few others where would Richmond really be in your eyes if they were all on the ground that we would like l'm sure the results would be far different
we are not getting belted by 100 points with these players missing

True Tigermonk that injuries to best 22 players can have a dramatic effect on middle of a road sides and we are suffering from missing Brown, Cogs and Thursty and a underdone Simmo but they would only give us wins against other middle of the road sides like in the past 2 years. Knobel, Hall and Hartigan are fringe players for us.

It is a positive that we've played so poorly yet haven't been thrashed on the scoreboard. Also a positive from the weekend was having 30 scoring shots on which 20 of them came in the second half. When we actually used the ball properly and worked hard as a team to support on another in numbers and put pressure on the opposition we can be dangerous. The problem is we can only do it for a quarter or so and our senior players are our main culprits in poor disposal and decision making that gifts soft possession and goals to the opposition.
 
The next 4 weeks will be test for our morale in the face of consecutive losses as far as remaining competitive on the scoreboard goes.

so you must think really bad of teams like Bulldogs, Saints, Demons, & others who have flogged us & not got any silverware in all them years l dont hear there supporters screaming like some tigers supporters

I know this wasn't directed at me tigermonk but the Vic sides are ordinary and just making up the numbers. The Dogs will struggle to make the eight if they play like they did on Friday night. Good sides won't turnover the ball and give them soft posessions and goals like we did. Their too short in defence and miss a big key forward target to kick to when pressured in the midfield.

[one-eyed]

Burgo's Take: It's tough from 0-4
By Matt Burgan
afl.com.au
April 23, 2007

HISTORY says Richmond and Melbourne will not win this year's premiership or even make the top four in 2007.

To put that in perspective, only the famed 1975 North Melbourne premiership team started the season with a 0-4 win/loss record before it etched its history-making status and won its first flag.

And since the top eight was introduced in 1994, no team has made the finals after dropping their opening four matches. When you consider the 2006 AFL finalists didn't lose any more than three in a row, it's a tougher climb than Everest.

In today's football environment, both Richmond and Melbourne will be under the pump from all sections, as they are the only two teams without victories after four rounds.

The simple reality is both teams have been struck by injury, which has severely hindered their structures and list management.

For Richmond, it could ill afford to have Nathan Brown and Mark Coughlan on the sidelines, while the unfairly maligned trio of Kent Kingsley, Ray Hall and Trent Knobel would have helped the Tigers' structure no end.

Granted, the Tigers have had opportunities to nail some victories early in the season, but it would have been interesting to see how a sprinkling of important players may have impacted on those results.

But having Kingsley up forward would ease the load on Matthew Richardson while having Knobel provide a chop-out for Troy Simmonds, who is only now returning from a limited pre-season due to an ankle injury, could also help their cause. Hall is also another tall option down back.

Richmond coach Terry Wallace has spoken publicly about his team's future prospects and although he has been lambasted by certain quarters, he is spot on.

Its past three NAB AFL Drafts have netted some promising talent, but many of them, such as Danny Meyer (2004), Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls (2005) and Shane Edwards (2006) need time.

Entering the season, Richmond's list had a look about it that pointed towards the future and not this year. All and sundry with the yellow and black needed to be aware of this, hence why Wallace spoke of the next decade with excitement.

If the club was to make an impact this year, it didn't need the likes of Brown and Coughlan going down. Not Richmond. Some lists are far better equipped to handle the loss of key players better. Unfortunately, the Tigers are not in this position.

Richmond and Melbourne's situation will place Wallace and Neale Daniher under unfair scrutiny. It's folly to think their coaching ability diminishes, simply because of the predicament they now find themselves in.

It's no surprise to see the Bombers flying up at this stage of the season. Unlike last year, Essendon, along with the Brisbane Lions, was riddled with injuries throughout their list.

Black clouds were predicted by many for the Bombers in 2007. Yet the good run with injury (so far), the return of key players, the introduction of some good new recruits and the continued development of several players have helped their cause.

All of a sudden, Kevin Sheedy is a genius again, which is hilarious when you consider last year's situation. He was always going to be up against it in 2006 and the loss of key personnel last year shouldn't have reduced his status entering this year.

The ‘doom and gloomers’ predicted it was his last year at the helm.

But now the Sheedy magic is back. And so is skipper Matthew Lloyd. Funny about that.

The loss of key cattle is the catalyst why Richmond and Melbourne are struggling – and like the majority of clubs, they cannot to have major alterations to their best structures.

Call it an excuse. Call it a reason. But call it fact.

http://afl.com.au/Season2007/News/NewsArticle/tabid/208/Default.aspx?newsId=41786

[Bulluss]

No S H I T Burgo

[Rodgerramjet]

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The
credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but
who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a
worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring
greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who
knew neither victory nor defeat."  - Theodore Roosevelt

[Tiger Spirit]

??? & where is Carlton they lose 1 player & they crash back to earth & Fevola loses his head

I find it hard to believe that you think one game proves a point?  Carlton were wooden spooners last year and WCE are the reigning premiers.  In case you need reminding.  They got beaten over in the west.  Why is that a surprise, or reason to think they’ve come crashing back to earth?

My point is based on a number of seasons, and not just one game.  Even though Carlton were penalised draft picks several years ago, they have taken their list and rejuvenated it, despite it resembling the foreign legion about 3 seasons ago.  They play a more watchable and exciting brand of footy, and can win games on confidence, enthusiasm, passion and spirit, which I can’t say about our team.

Their supporters can be under no illusions as to how good or not their team is because Pagan, generally, lets them play a style that doesn’t hide, camouflage or misrepresent how far they still have to go.  Some of our supporters thought we would make the eight this season, based on our previous two years and that they thought that was the natural progression of things.  I wasn’t one of them.  Mainly because I hadn’t seen anything to convince me that we had even scratched the surface of becoming a hard nosed team.

On top of everything else, Carlton has a coach with a long history of getting the best out of players and getting them to play as a team.  He’s turned outside players in to inside players and kept his cool, and his mouth mostly shut, under immense pressure.

And even though they’ve been through some harsh seasons, based on what we’ve seen so far, I’m more convinced that they are further advanced, as a team, than ours is, at this stage.  Given Pagan’s track record, there’s no reason why they shouldn’t continue to improve.

but when you take players from the top 22 out of your lineup in the likes of Coughlan, Brown, Knobel, Thursfield, Simmonds, Hall, Hartigan, & a few others where would Richmond really be in your eyes if they were all on the ground that we would like l'm sure the results would be far different
we are not getting belted by 100 points with these players missing

Don’t know what it is you think I’m saying Tigermonk.  What I am saying is that RFC doesn’t know how to develop players.  I’ve been saying it for around a decade.  So, whether you agree with this or not, effectively, what difference would it make which players are in the team or not?  It wouldn’t convince me of anything even if we had our whole list out there, and had no injuries for the entire season, because any improvement we see in players and the team is never consistent and sustained.  It hasn’t been that way for years and it doesn’t look like it is now.

An injury depleted Crows were able to beat the Swans on the weekend.  Did they use injuries as an excuse?  No, the players who came into the team were more than adequate replacements, and they just got on with winning a game, rather than feeling sorry for themselves and using injuries as an out clause for their efforts.  When RFC gets to that stage then maybe I’ll be convinced that something has changed.

RFC promotes players, in order to give hope to supporters for the future.  Maybe it worked with me in the past, but I’ve become cynical about these things.  Purely because the players they’ve promoted in the past have never gone on with the promise they previously showed.

So, either we recruit the wrong players or we don’t know how to develop them.  Either way the Club has to take responsibility and see where things need to change.

so you must think really bad of teams like Bulldogs, Saints, Demons, & others who have flogged us & not got any silverware in all them years l dont hear there supporters screaming like some tigers supporters

I've got enough problems of my own supporting Richmond, without worrying about other Clubs and their woes.  Is there anything wrong in wanting to see your Club improve and be able to get the best out of its players?

All I would like is to see the Club work its way through where the actual problem is and do something constructive about it, rather than bury its head in the sand, pretend we’re on track, and then make someone the scapegoat.  Is that too much to ask?  If that makes me a bad supporter then so be it.