Author Topic: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]  (Read 45617 times)

Offline Stripes

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #150 on: June 03, 2009, 08:58:44 PM »
but the dogs cried and got wallet sacked....

 :o ???

Offline camboon

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #151 on: June 03, 2009, 10:14:09 PM »
I think hes suggesting there was a call for blood which stopped TW from doing what Tony Shaw did for Collingwood.

If Richmond win for 4 game this year maybe we should review a few other positions within the club as well. Still think could suggest that we are unlikely to make the finals an need to build for the future and play the kids. No grief is being given to Melbourne or West Coast for basic so I would suggest if we could do the same.
If Rawlings is made caretaker there is a good chance that he will play the list at the direction of the senior management.

Offline WilliamPowell

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Re: "To tank? Or not to tank? That is the question."
« Reply #152 on: June 04, 2009, 07:34:53 AM »

In many ways mt, this argument that we should 'tank' is actually disproved by the Geelong experience. Yes, we should keep our picks and trade for more, no question about that. We have made huge mistakes in our trading for 'experienced' players who appear to fill a gap. Furiously agree there.

But IMO, the problems that we have now have much more to do with what we do with players once they are drafted than how high our draft picks are. If you look at Geelong, the highest draft pick they have had in your scenario is pick 7 (Selwood). Many of their really good players were drafted in the 20s and 30s or later. Is this good recruitment, or good player education and management AFTER drafting? Probably a combination of both, and that's part of the the point.

The longer we pin our hopes on high draft picks, or even a new coach, turning around our culture, the longer we will stay at the bottom of the ladder.

We must work much harder on inculcating our entire club personnel with an attitude of leaving absolutely no stone unturned in striving to improve our performance. This means players, admin staff, trainers, fitness people, development people, receptionist, doctors — absolutely everyone who wears a bit of yellow and black. We must not fall into the trap of believing any one person can change things — including a coach or a Cotchin or a Deledio. The sooner we start with this attitude, the better. If that means that we win 7 out of our  next 12 games, so be it. Culture change won't come from laying down — by all means play the kids and see who has got what to take us forward, but prepare them as meticulously and with a winning attitude as far as is humanly possible, and if they win, then that is so much more important that getting pick 3 or pick 8 it's not funny.

That is a fantastic post  :clapping :clapping :clapping

 :thumbsup
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Offline Smokey

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #153 on: June 04, 2009, 09:10:28 AM »

Who said anything about changing the game plan or whatever?

What I'm saying is that whatever sides we select for the remainder of the season should be asked to prepare to win like they've never prepared before. As thoroughly and as professionally as they humanly can. If we win, great. If we lose, well at least we did everything we could to improve ourselves. What new coach wouldn't want that?

We get too fixated on draft picks, or on the coach (saviour), or the next champion, and lose sight of the fact that we need to distribute our resources and, more importantly, attitudes across every corner of the organisation. We need to put our eggs in all baskets. We need to ask every employee of the RFC to do all he/she can to improve his/her performance, every board member, every trainer, every bootstudder. Not just to improve, but work towards being the absolute best in their field. We need to recruit the right people on field and off field, and we need to develop them and bring them into and help us create the culture that trickles down to everyone, including the playing group.

Forget about tanking. It is a massive red herring.


 :clapping :clapping :clapping

And fortunately we have already made improvements in a lot of areas, especially off-field.  We need to continue to improve but we are not a basket case club now - 5 years ago we were.

Offline Stripes

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #154 on: June 04, 2009, 11:56:18 AM »
WP, Foo and smokey - I think you'll have your way and we will win more games than we lose for the rest of the season.

I hope in the wash up we get the culture you are heralding and we have the cattle to execute it.

I still stand firm that in years to come no one will remember a few meaningless wins at the end of an already disasterous year....but they will remember whether we got a group of quality players or just another batch of failed chances.

Either way, the decision and future is out of our hands and firmly in the Richmond administrations

Stripes

Offline mightytiges

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Re: "To tank? Or not to tank? That is the question."
« Reply #155 on: June 04, 2009, 06:53:54 PM »
'Tanking' would give us 3 picks at this more profitable pointy end hence the argument for us to 'tank'.

Also the lessons from Geelong's rebuild is to keep your picks and in fact trade for more.

In many ways mt, this argument that we should 'tank' is actually disproved by the Geelong experience. Yes, we should keep our picks and trade for more, no question about that. We have made huge mistakes in our trading for 'experienced' players who appear to fill a gap. Furiously agree there.

But IMO, the problems that we have now have much more to do with what we do with players once they are drafted than how high our draft picks are. If you look at Geelong, the highest draft pick they have had in your scenario is pick 7 (Selwood). Many of their really good players were drafted in the 20s and 30s or later. Is this good recruitment, or good player education and management AFTER drafting? Probably a combination of both, and that's part of the the point.

The longer we pin our hopes on high draft picks, or even a new coach, turning around our culture, the longer we will stay at the bottom of the ladder.

We must work much harder on inculcating our entire club personnel with an attitude of leaving absolutely no stone unturned in striving to improve our performance. This means players, admin staff, trainers, fitness people, development people, receptionist, doctors — absolutely everyone who wears a bit of yellow and black. We must not fall into the trap of believing any one person can change things — including a coach or a Cotchin or a Deledio. The sooner we start with this attitude, the better. If that means that we win 7 out of our  next 12 games, so be it. Culture change won't come from laying down — by all means play the kids and see who has got what to take us forward, but prepare them as meticulously and with a winning attitude as far as is humanly possible, and if they win, then that is so much more important that getting pick 3 or pick 8 it's not funny.
People forget about Geelong's father-sons who were rated top 10 picks before their respective drafts. The Cats were effectively getting two top 10 picks in those years ...

2001: Bartel (8 ) and G.Ablett
2004: The traded their first rounder for Ottens but they knew they had N.Ablett up their sleeve later in the draft.
2007: Selwood (7) and Hawkins

They already had Scarlett prior to Thompson becoming their coach.

The new F/S rule was brought in so clubs couldn't have both their first round pick and then their F/S choice if the F/S was a young gun. Take Bartel, Selwood and Ottens off the Cats' list and the dynamics of their midfield change.

You need the most talented kids first and plenty of them. Sure our recruiting and development resources have been poor but it's no coincidence that our two most talented youngsters Lids and Cotch were both top 2 picks. Our last priority pick gave us Rance. I doubt people who are 'anti-tankers' would give them away now for 2 more wins in 2004 or 2007. We don't have the bonus of top quality father-sons walking en masse into our club as Geelong did. So we need the earlier picks instead to grab the best talent in numbers especially that extra priority pick which would give us 3 picks in the top 20.

You need to get bring as many talented kids as possible to the Club as the first building block otherwise you're wasting your time in terms of their development into a successful team. You still need to do all those other areas you mentioned FFV but recruiting the best kids in number comes first. Picking up only 2-3 kids a year in the National draft like we have because we finished 9th-10th and ending up with picks 8, 24 plus trading away our 3rd pick for a recycled dud isn't enough in quantity and quality to cull and turn over your list quickly and change the culture of the playing list. You need plenty of picks and the higher the better to get the best kids. If we win no more than 4 games this year and trade a player or two away for even 30-40ish draft picks then you have say draft picks 2, 18, 19, 30ish, 35, 40ish. 6 new kids instead of just 2 and more talented kids to boot. Do that a couple of years in a row (I would tank next year as well) and you clean the deadwood out of our list quickly and evoke real change to the playing list in terms of quantity, quality and structure rather than what we have now which is basically the same group of players each and every year failing us with just a few changes around the seams.

I don't see a consistent recruiting policy at Richmond even though we're having this review and we've changed footy managers and now senior coach. There's mixed messages coming out of the club. One minute we're rebuilding, the next promising finals or bust, then its back to youth but we'll trade draft picks away for older fringe players. We make it up as we go along  :help. The direction of the club needs to come from the Boardroom and the head of the footy dept. They need to stand up, show some leadership and make up their minds if we are truly rebuilding or not. Changing coaches, fitness staff, etc... and then still repeating the same dumb recruiting mistakes won't help improve our list or side. 
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Offline camboon

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Re: "To tank? Or not to tank? That is the question."
« Reply #156 on: June 04, 2009, 07:13:14 PM »
'Tanking' would give us 3 picks at this more profitable pointy end hence the argument for us to 'tank'.

Also the lessons from Geelong's rebuild is to keep your picks and in fact trade for more.

In many ways mt, this argument that we should 'tank' is actually disproved by the Geelong experience. Yes, we should keep our picks and trade for more, no question about that. We have made huge mistakes in our trading for 'experienced' players who appear to fill a gap. Furiously agree there.

But IMO, the problems that we have now have much more to do with what we do with players once they are drafted than how high our draft picks are. If you look at Geelong, the highest draft pick they have had in your scenario is pick 7 (Selwood). Many of their really good players were drafted in the 20s and 30s or later. Is this good recruitment, or good player education and management AFTER drafting? Probably a combination of both, and that's part of the the point.

The longer we pin our hopes on high draft picks, or even a new coach, turning around our culture, the longer we will stay at the bottom of the ladder.

We must work much harder on inculcating our entire club personnel with an attitude of leaving absolutely no stone unturned in striving to improve our performance. This means players, admin staff, trainers, fitness people, development people, receptionist, doctors — absolutely everyone who wears a bit of yellow and black. We must not fall into the trap of believing any one person can change things — including a coach or a Cotchin or a Deledio. The sooner we start with this attitude, the better. If that means that we win 7 out of our  next 12 games, so be it. Culture change won't come from laying down — by all means play the kids and see who has got what to take us forward, but prepare them as meticulously and with a winning attitude as far as is humanly possible, and if they win, then that is so much more important that getting pick 3 or pick 8 it's not funny.
People forget about Geelong's father-sons who were rated top 10 picks before their respective drafts. The Cats were effectively getting two top 10 picks in those years ...

2001: Bartel (8 ) and G.Ablett
2004: The traded their first rounder for Ottens but they knew they had N.Ablett up their sleeve later in the draft.
2007: Selwood (7) and Hawkins

They already had Scarlett prior to Thompson becoming their coach.

The new F/S rule was brought in so clubs couldn't have both their first round pick and then their F/S choice if the F/S was a young gun. Take Bartel, Selwood and Ottens off the Cats' list and the dynamics of their midfield change.

You need the most talented kids first and plenty of them. Sure our recruiting and development resources have been poor but it's no coincidence that our two most talented youngsters Lids and Cotch were both top 2 picks. Our last priority pick gave us Rance. I doubt people who are 'anti-tankers' would give them away now for 2 more wins in 2004 or 2007. We don't have the bonus of top quality father-sons walking en masse into our club as Geelong did. So we need the earlier picks instead to grab the best talent in numbers especially that extra priority pick which would give us 3 picks in the top 20.

You need to get bring as many talented kids as possible to the Club as the first building block otherwise you're wasting your time in terms of their development into a successful team. You still need to do all those other areas you mentioned FFV but recruiting the best kids in number comes first. Picking up only 2-3 kids a year in the National draft like we have because we finished 9th-10th and ending up with picks 8, 24 plus trading away our 3rd pick for a recycled dud isn't enough in quantity and quality to cull and turn over your list quickly and change the culture of the playing list. You need plenty of picks and the higher the better to get the best kids. If we win no more than 4 games this year and trade a player or two away for even 30-40ish draft picks then you have say draft picks 2, 18, 19, 30ish, 35, 40ish. 6 new kids instead of just 2 and more talented kids to boot. Do that a couple of years in a row (I would tank next year as well) and you clean the deadwood out of our list quickly and evoke real change to the playing list in terms of quantity, quality and structure rather than what we have now which is basically the same group of players each and every year failing us with just a few changes around the seams.

I don't see a consistent recruiting policy at Richmond even though we're having this review and we've changed footy managers and now senior coach. There's mixed messages coming out of the club. One minute we're rebuilding, the next promising finals or bust, then its back to youth but we'll trade draft picks away for older fringe players. We make it up as we go along  :help. The direction of the club needs to come from the Boardroom and the head of the footy dept. They need to stand up, show some leadership and make up their minds if we are truly rebuilding or not. Changing coaches, fitness staff, etc... and then still repeating the same dumb recruiting mistakes won't help improve our list or side. 
Amen, but you know that Stripes and Myself are on the same page as you. I am so sick of the B/S that we only just need to try harder, win more games, have a better culture, sack all coaches. I see some hope in our leadership this year but there is no magic pudding, hard decisions for the long term need to be made and they need to made on our drafting, no more short term crap from other clubs.

Offline Infamy

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #157 on: June 04, 2009, 08:01:13 PM »
I don't remember anyone rating GAJ a top 10 selection pre-draft. If anything most people thought a 3rd rounder was about right.

Offline mightytiges

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #158 on: June 04, 2009, 10:53:49 PM »
I don't remember anyone rating GAJ a top 10 selection pre-draft. If anything most people thought a 3rd rounder was about right.
Geelong supporters loved him from day one. Started with the Falcons in the TAC Cup as a 15 year old under Turner and made the Vic Country squad.
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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #159 on: June 04, 2009, 11:15:45 PM »
I think that Leigh Matthews is interested in our coaching job. Heard him tonight on 3aw, said we had afew players to work with etc. I think hes interested.

Offline Judge Roughneck

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Re: "To tank? Or not to tank? That is the question."
« Reply #160 on: June 05, 2009, 03:36:29 AM »
'Tanking' would give us 3 picks at this more profitable pointy end hence the argument for us to 'tank'.

Also the lessons from Geelong's rebuild is to keep your picks and in fact trade for more.

In many ways mt, this argument that we should 'tank' is actually disproved by the Geelong experience. Yes, we should keep our picks and trade for more, no question about that. We have made huge mistakes in our trading for 'experienced' players who appear to fill a gap. Furiously agree there.

But IMO, the problems that we have now have much more to do with what we do with players once they are drafted than how high our draft picks are. If you look at Geelong, the highest draft pick they have had in your scenario is pick 7 (Selwood). Many of their really good players were drafted in the 20s and 30s or later. Is this good recruitment, or good player education and management AFTER drafting? Probably a combination of both, and that's part of the the point.

The longer we pin our hopes on high draft picks, or even a new coach, turning around our culture, the longer we will stay at the bottom of the ladder.

We must work much harder on inculcating our entire club personnel with an attitude of leaving absolutely no stone unturned in striving to improve our performance. This means players, admin staff, trainers, fitness people, development people, receptionist, doctors — absolutely everyone who wears a bit of yellow and black. We must not fall into the trap of believing any one person can change things — including a coach or a Cotchin or a Deledio. The sooner we start with this attitude, the better. If that means that we win 7 out of our  next 12 games, so be it. Culture change won't come from laying down — by all means play the kids and see who has got what to take us forward, but prepare them as meticulously and with a winning attitude as far as is humanly possible, and if they win, then that is so much more important that getting pick 3 or pick 8 it's not funny.

I do not buy this at all.

maybe if our father sons start turning out like Nath /Gary Ablett , hawkins

Offline Smokey

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Re: "To tank? Or not to tank? That is the question."
« Reply #161 on: June 05, 2009, 09:24:57 AM »

I do not buy this at all.

maybe if our father sons start turning out like Nath /Gary Ablett , hawkins

Yes, Nathan Ablett, what a game turning champion he was.  32 games in 3 seasons, averaged 8.6 disposals 3.9 marks and 1.4 goals per game for his career - and not a Brownlow vote to be seen.  Played in a premiership team and made not one scrap of difference to that team for the entire year.  Currently getting a kick for Broadbeach in Queensland but still, not too many of them.  Raines has a better career record than that and look how much we all love him!

They got lucky with 2.  Just looking at recent times so did we - Richardson and Bowden, so did Collingwood - Shaw and Shaw, so did Essendon - Watson and Neagle, so did Carlton - Silvagni and Waite, so has almost every other club over the years.  So now there is a rule in place to prevent getting a 'steal' - big deal - father and son picks are cyclical and realistically frought with more danger than a standard draft pick because of the sentimental factor.  Blaming father and son picks for Geelong's current success is just another red herring - just like thinking that tanking for a priority pick will fix our problems.  Stop trying to find the cure in the pill jar of low picks - you are only putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound.

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #162 on: June 05, 2009, 09:32:36 AM »
I don't remember anyone rating GAJ a top 10 selection pre-draft. If anything most people thought a 3rd rounder was about right.

Correct. G Ablett was never spoken of as a top 10 pick. Never.

But I think you are missing my point completely mt. I agree that we need to keep our picks and trade aggressively for more. It is a numbers game, and your own example in Geelong actually proves that you don't need picks in the top 5 to be successful (though, sure, if you get them you don't knock them back!). And yes, Geelong have had some luck with F/S picks (is it luck?) and we have had bad luck with Cogs, Brown, Polak etc. I think I could make a workable argument that our F/S picks (Roach, Raines) might be suffering the same fate as other high pick under-performers (eg Tambling, JON, Pettifer etc).

Far more important is the structure of the club, the environment that you create, and the processes that you induct draftees into. Without the right elements in place, you may as well stop now, which is what we have effectively done for 25 years. We have pinned our hopes on a succession of saviours (be they coaches, players or administrators) and it hasn't got us anywhere because we continue to believe that they are the answer.

The answer is not in making sure we don't win games to ensure a slightly higher pick. Whether we get pick 3 or pick 8 this year is not going to make the difference that turns us into a successful club. History has taught us that. It is far more important that we start adopting an absolute best practice attitude throughout the club, from the top down, and that starts with preparing our players to win at all costs, to prepare with winning as the priority, and then doing everything we can to support them in this outcome.

The players need to get the message that the answer lies within them, not with some 17 year old kid running around in the TAC cup. Adopting a "tanking" approach gives people the message that the answers lie elsewhere. That is not the right message to be sending.

Offline Infamy

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #163 on: June 05, 2009, 09:55:56 AM »
I must admit, while I have been of the mindset that our season is over and it is pointless to try and win more than two more matches, there is a way that we can play to win in the 2nd half of the season and still get the same advantages as the priority pick.
If we play all our kids and fringe players and one or two of them can step up and show some good form, then we may be able to get a half decent 2nd rounder for a player we plan to get rid of anyway. Port were willing to part with a 2nd rounder for Schulz, maybe they still will be if we can get him kicking a few goals or playing back in defence and getting 20+ disposals a game again. Likewise with Jordan McMahon, if we can get him picking up 25-30 disposals on the HBF or wing and with a high disposal efficiency like he usually has, then it may also make him attractive to another club for a late 2nd, early 3rd round pick perhaps.
A fringe player in a losing side will never gain much attention from other clubs

Offline Chuck17

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Re: IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]
« Reply #164 on: June 05, 2009, 10:36:38 AM »
then it may also make him attractive to another club for a late 2nd, early 3rd round pick perhaps.

If we cant get that I would accept a slab of VB and a couple of cartons of ciggy's