IT'S TIME TO GO THE TANK- IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE! [merged]

[the_boy_jake]

tanking is just a term to please supporters when their teams are poo. it makes them sleep better , " we are not poo , we are tanking, playing for picks" 

rubbish

tanking just means u r poo , no more no less

ppl have to get out of the denial stage

playing kids and losing is not tanking, its developing young players and giving them experience. in other words rebuilding
when the kids start winning as they develop then you hit the jackpot, look at geelong, they never tanked

I agree.

Thing with Geelong is they hit the jackpot picking up the best player in the AFL and the best key defender in the AFL through F/S. But otherwise their talent identification and development is top notch.

Harley, Ling, Enright, Stokes and more all later than 2nd round.

Not sure how many of their guns were first round picks, but the only ones I can think of are Corey and Bartel.

The point is often made that Deledio and Cotchin are far and away the best youngsters we have and we need more round 1 picks, but I think this shows more that our talent identification is pretty poor.

[camboon]

Its easy to be a better player if you have star players around you. Can any one argue that Murpy is a better player when Judd is in the team. We need the quality to get the best from the quantity.

[mjs]

look atthe saints, they had all those early picks years ago but still havent won a thing,

If they win the flag this year you can put it down to their early draft picks - just took a couple of years, but they have plenty of them just maturing. They also shoulda/cooda won one earlier.

[big tone]

tanking is just a term to please supporters when their teams are poo. it makes them sleep better , " we are not poo , we are tanking, playing for picks" 

rubbish

tanking just means u r poo , no more no less

ppl have to get out of the denial stage

playing kids and losing is not tanking, its developing young players and giving them experience. in other words rebuilding
when the kids start winning as they develop then you hit the jackpot, look at geelong, they never tanked

I agree.

Thing with Geelong is they hit the jackpot picking up the best player in the AFL and the best key defender in the AFL through F/S. But otherwise their talent identification and development is top notch.

Harley, Ling, Enright, Stokes and more all later than 2nd round.

Not sure how many of their guns were first round picks, but the only ones I can think of are Corey and Bartel.

The point is often made that Deledio and Cotchin are far and away the best youngsters we have and we need more round 1 picks, but I think this shows more that our talent identification is pretty poor.

Or that really early picks are better footballers!

[mightytiges]

All we need to do is increasingly play the kids, we will then do three things, get experience into the kids, see who's worth keeping / trading and of course if we lose - its a win all round.

We don't  need to then compromise the culture by losing because our we wont be good enough to win and if we win with kids, its not the end of the world - ( hopefully no more the on more win)

I would hope that if we keep playing the kids and win, then people would be happy or at least try to be happy.

Surely, playing the kids and winning is a good thing Or are we supposed to lose at all costs

Because by winniong with the kids could actually mean that our kids aren't that bad and with the right person in charge the future actually looks positive

 

As a young side beating sides whose season is alive and in important games for them where they need to win would be a real positive. However in games where the result has no bearing on anything then it's really just about giving the kids AFL experience and education win, lose or draw. It's hard to enjoy a win when you know the opposition and their fans couldn't give a stuff about the result and are looking forward to two picks in the top 5 to grab another Naitanui.

[mightytiges]

west coast ahve never tanked, they are just crap, worse than us. they lost judd cousins but on tope of that have lost other premiership players and had players like kerr and embley have no consistancy due to inury and form. they have had a poor fwd structure for for a couple of yrs now and its only now they are starting to shape their fed line

tanking does not work, all it does is train the mind that losing is ok and one gets reward for losing

tanking is rubbish and should not even be talked about


as cuz says , winning isnt everything,  ITS THE ONLY THING

Don't kid yourself. Wset Coast have done it before

From 1990 to 1999 West Coast finished 3,1,4,6,1,5,4,5,7,5
Then in 2000 they were 13th then in 2001 they were 14th
From 2002 to 2007 they went 8,7,7,2,1,3
Before finishing 2008 at 15th with 4 wins

They picked up McDougall (traded to Bulldogs in 2006 for a 2nd round pick) and Kerr, Humm in 2000 and Judd Sampi Seaby Hansen in 2001

and last year they got Natanui Shuey and Swift in top 20 picks

and they are headed for three more top 20 picks this year

This is following on from the 2007 draft when they scored big out of the Judd trade and picked up Masten, Ebert, Notte, Selwood (4 picks in the top 22 picks) plus got Kennedy (pick 4 in 2005)

West Coast use the system beautifully and make sure they limit their wins

Exactly Gracie. After sitting next to Eagles fans on Saturday night who had travelled over from Perth for the game I can tell you they are on the tank bandwagon big-time. Seeing Naitanui run around only reinforced their faith in the draft's early picks. Read BF and it's no different. Worsfold came out a few weeks ago and basically implied they are tanking. I mean they finished 15th last year and will finish bottom 3 again this year yet the Eagles are about to give Worsfold a whole further 3 years lol. They've tasted success so their fans have patience to rebuild and rebuild properly by bottoming out for a few years and using the draft system to the max. to do what's best for their list so they can challenge again in 3-4 years time. Yep I'm sure come November when they get their hands on two of Scully, Butcher, Lucas and Morabito plus another top 20 pick they'll be saying to themselves geez we must be real losers for losing to Richmond in round 12  .

[TigerTime]

look atthe saints, they had all those early picks years ago but still havent won a thing,

If they win the flag this year you can put it down to their early draft picks - just took a couple of years, but they have plenty of them just maturing. They also shoulda/cooda won one earlier.

bs, if they win a flag now, which they wont, it is a bit late to use those draft picks. 3 yrs ago yes, now no. 
if they win now its because of lyon  and their recent additions. not their picks from way back then

[JVT]

look atthe saints, they had all those early picks years ago but still havent won a thing,

If they win the flag this year you can put it down to their early draft picks - just took a couple of years, but they have plenty of them just maturing. They also shoulda/cooda won one earlier.

bs, if they win a flag now, which they wont, it is a bit late to use those draft picks. 3 yrs ago yes, now no. 
if they win now its because of lyon  and their recent additions. not their picks from way back then

Well i guess it all depends who were the best players on the ground and who influenced that win, if it was the early picks, it would point to the draft being the reason for the success, no? 

[TigerTime]

no body tanks to get draft picks to win a premiership 7  yrs later , thats bs and weak, and to say that picks 7 yrs prior were the catalyst of the premiership is even more bs

if that were the case with all those top 20 picks 6 yrs ago, we should be contenders now, but in 2 -3 -4 yrs time if we come good, we cannot say its cos of teh 2004 draft and "tanking"

wallace missed the boat, if he were a good coach we should have been contenders last yr


tanking and picks are bs, its all about development and culture

[mjs]

if they win now its because of lyon  and their recent additions. not their picks from way back then

If they win now do you think any of these players would be a big factor?

Reiwoldt - priority pick
Kossie - priority pick
Ball - pick 2
Goddard - pick 1
Del santo - pick 13
Clarkes - picks 5 and 8

 
...have I forgotten any?

[mightytiges]

if they win now its because of lyon  and their recent additions. not their picks from way back then

If they win now do you think any of these players would be a big factor?

Reiwoldt - priority pick
Kossie - priority pick
Ball - pick 2
Goddard - pick 1
Del santo - pick 13
Clarkes - picks 5 and 8

 
...have I forgotten any?

Hayes was pick 11
Hudghton pick 15

Montagna at pick 37 would be their only A-grader not picked up early in the draft although a third rounder is still a decent pick (unless you're a Richmond recruiter  )

The main difference between Lyon and Thomas is Lyon isn't an idiot like Conflakes who believed ruckmen had no real purpose in the game. Gardiner, King and to a lesser extent McEvoy (pick 9) have made a massive difference.

[mightytiges]

You're misunderstanding the point to say it's only about getting and relying on one extra kid. It's the fact you get 3 picks in the top 20.

No, you are misunderstanding the notion of culture. Players don't create a winning club culture, the club does. That means everybody. The culture trickles down to the playing group, not up from it.

Much of what you have said I agree with, but only strengthens the argument to not worry about how many games we win or lose, but concentrate on the process of building a strong club culture.

The main cultural problem at Richmond for a long time now has been entrenched short-term thinking at the expense and harm of our mid to long term interests. Winning a couple of meaningless games against fellow strugglers at the expense of top 20 draft picks is short-term thinking. These wins will be forgotten as soon as the final siren sounds in round 22.

There's little that can be significantly achieved now with 2009 a write-off apart from playing the kids until the end of the season in readiness for 2010 and beyond which appears to be what we are doing now. The offseason is when key changes are made - delistings, trades, new draftees added, team gameplans modified and tuned, and further resources added. To maximize the effectiveness of these offseason decisions we need as many early picks as available to us to cut as many of those players not up to it and give our recruiting department the best chance to replace them with better quality young footballers. Winning no more than 4 games provides us with these early picks; winning meaningless games against bottom sides deprives us of them.

All that beating bottom sides does is make the club feel good for a week and relieve some pressure on the club until we play a decent side and harsh reality hits home again and knocks the stuffing out of our confidence. It does nothing as far as building a winning club culture because belief and a winning culture comes from winning games that count and matter as much to your opponent as it does to you - when it is do or die. None of our remaining 10 games matter as far as the result goes because 2009 is a write-off. Top sides will not prepare and pump themselves up when playing us and bottom sides have already put the cue in the rack. We've won these meaningless games in the past and no surprise our culture hasn't changed. We've tried getting the best out of our existing list when games were on the line and once again we froze and didn't give a yelp  . Round 1 was just another embarrassing flop in a long list of disasters on the big stage for Richmond in the modern era.  Clarkson when he arrived at Hawthorn used part of his salary to pump more into recruiting. He realised there's no point trying to get the best out of a list unless you have real quality on it to begin with. We are only part way through our rebuilding process. Just as the Club needs to improve the off-field areas we both agree we need to do (more resources etc) we still need to bottom out to complete the rebuild and add far more quality and class to our list. The most effective way of doing this is to be smart and use and maximize the draft system rules in place.

[camboon]

At the end of the day if you think all we need is a coach and a culture I'm going to be dead before we play finals again.

PS: I hope like hell we don't start drinking our own bath water and think we are any good again once we win a few games whilst the smart clubs start the list development again.

Do you think we are dumb at Richmond or just employ dumb decision makers or people with short term self interest.

Question: If we had  won four games and we were 2 goals down in the last quarter of the last game would you take off the 4 best players and move the player to the wrong positions.

[Francois Jackson]

if they win now its because of lyon  and their recent additions. not their picks from way back then

If they win now do you think any of these players would be a big factor?

Reiwoldt - priority pick
Kossie - priority pick
Ball - pick 2
Goddard - pick 1
Del santo - pick 13
Clarkes - picks 5 and 8

 
...have I forgotten any?

exactly..........

[Stripes]

At the end of the day if you think all we need is a coach and a culture I'm going to be dead before we play finals again.

PS: I hope like hell we don't start drinking our own bath water and think we are any good again once we win a few games whilst the smart clubs start the list development again.

Do you think we are dumb at Richmond or just employ dumb decision makers or people with short term self interest.

Question: If we had  won four games and we were 2 goals down in the last quarter of the last game would you take off the 4 best players and move the player to the wrong positions.

In a heartbeat.