Author Topic: Federal Election  (Read 41635 times)

Offline Owl

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #270 on: August 26, 2010, 06:49:32 PM »
The idea of redrawing the state and territory boundries in the north is nothing new and has some merit. Most involve North Queensland as well, but given Catter comes from those parts Its no surpise he wants Queensland to gain, not lose.

The north of Australia will never become a food bowl, for so many reasons. Typical attitude, we stuffed what we got so lets go and eff somewhere else as well. Morons!

As for Booraloola. A lot of Queensland fisherman vist there because you can still catch Barramundi in the NT, but I dont know of too mant NT fishos who venture over to QLD for their fishing.
I agree with you again Al, gettin scary...lol.  The problem with North Western Australia is this, It has these huuuge magnificent water storage reserves but the soil will not support any of our crops at all, all attempts have failed.  Katter has to do some reading on that score.  If you want to turn North Qld into a food bowl you gotta bulldoze all the forests.  Here is the clincher.  We produce plenty of food, far in excess of what we can eat here, what we have done is hocked most of our food production off to overseas interests so they basically ship all our food off overseas.  We don't NEED food production.  Personally I don't particularly want to cram people into the country from coast to coast, I kinda like the fact we are one of the last places on earth where you can get away from the incessant human plague.  I already live on a subdivided block and it irritates the crap out of me, that and the calcutta cattle class train system seem to have now.  
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Offline Owl

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #271 on: August 26, 2010, 06:50:38 PM »
I my opinion the quicker they do away with compulsory voting the better it will be for all.

Seeing the informal vote was over 600K this election (a staggering number and a major concern IMHO) I don't think we can afford to make voting non-compulsory...

If they did that it; it may end being just you and me voting Mr Tigra  ;D

And when you think that Mr Rabbit & others are hell bent on demonising 3000 odd refugees arriving in boats who would just love to be able to vote & participate in a free democracy........

Mr Rabbit? What the eff is that about? You disgust me..... :shh
LOL
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Offline Penelope

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #272 on: August 26, 2010, 07:06:56 PM »
The idea of redrawing the state and territory boundries in the north is nothing new and has some merit. Most involve North Queensland as well, but given Catter comes from those parts Its no surpise he wants Queensland to gain, not lose.

The north of Australia will never become a food bowl, for so many reasons. Typical attitude, we stuffed what we got so lets go and eff somewhere else as well. Morons!

As for Booraloola. A lot of Queensland fisherman vist there because you can still catch Barramundi in the NT, but I dont know of too mant NT fishos who venture over to QLD for their fishing.
I agree with you again Al, gettin scary...lol.  The problem with North Western Australia is this, It has these huuuge magnificent water storage reserves but the soil will not support any of our crops at all, all attempts have failed.  Katter has to do some reading on that score.  If you want to turn North Qld into a food bowl you gotta bulldoze all the forests.  Here is the clincher.  We produce plenty of food, far in excess of what we can eat here, what we have done is hocked most of our food production off to overseas interests so they basically ship all our food off overseas.  We don't NEED food production.  Personally I don't particularly want to cram people into the country from coast to coast, I kinda like the fact we are one of the last places on earth where you can get away from the incessant human plague.  I already live on a subdivided block and it irritates the crap out of me, that and the calcutta cattle class train system seem to have now.  

Could you imagine the outcry if we exported directly, the water used to grow the food that we export? (not to mention waste as well)
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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #273 on: August 26, 2010, 09:46:18 PM »
This result proves to all that unless your name is Bob Hawke, Labor aren't any good at running government longer than 3 years! Their history speaks loud and clear.
After a landslide victory in 2007 when we all were hopeful that Rudd could make a real difference he was shafted by his own party revealing to all that Labor can't be trusted to govern with a mandate from the Australian public. It shows that Labor are a fractured, unstable organisation with too many hidden agendas and too many heads trying to drive a ship. Problem is that with a constitution that has a 40/40/20 rule that is discrimminatory and is un Australian, the party members are unable to work together or trust one another. Therefore the ship will always sink  
A great example of this was Maxine McKew who was a strong supporter of Kevin '07. In her own words she was "factionless" and was therefore NOT supported by Julia's growing faction The Emily's list. Not even a train line could save her in the end.  
In conclusion
Luke 11:17
Geez knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.

John Curtin was such a disaster of a Labor PM wasn't he leading the country through WWII before he died in office  ::). You might also want to check your Australian history of the Gorton/McMahon period if you want to see unstable government in self destruct mode - Malcolm Fraser openingly bagged his own PM John Gorton; Gorton is then challenged by Billy MacMahon but the leadership vote ended up a tie so by Liberal party rules Gorton had to step down; Gorton then runs for and wins the deputy leadership forcing McMahon to make Gorton his defence minister; McMahon then sacks Gorton for disloyalty. Then we had the split in the Libs in 1977 when Don Chipp broke away to form the Democrats.  1968-1982 was a shambles for Australia politically and economically from both sides. Both parties have had major implosions in our history (ALP-DLP split in 1954 was the biggest on the Labor side) and to think otherwise is just showing blatant bias.

If you believe there are no factions in the Liberal party then you're living in la la land. Abbott won the Liberal party leadership by ONE vote over Turnbull. The Liberal party is split between hardcore conservative and moderate small "l" liberal factions just as the ALP is split between left and right wing factions. With the massive egos in politics on all sides there is always someone waiting to knife their own or opponent to jump up the political ladder.
comparing the liberal democratic process of voting in a leader to the ALP system of knifing is laughable just read their constitution and you will see all the "hidden" rules regarding factions. There is absolutely nothing in the liberal party constitution that accounts for factions at all.  
The 40/40/20 affirmative action rule is a joke and anyone with eyes can read that garbage.
There may be differences in party politics but as the Abbott and Turnbull experience showed, when the party is ALLOWED TO VOTE democracy wins because ALL have a say.  

It's likely that the faceless MAFIA men behind the ALP will probably make an offer the independants can't refuse.  
As I said anyone who doesn't believe the Liberal Party have factions of hardline conservatives (Howard, Abbott, etc) and moderate small "l" liberals (Costello, Turnbull, etc) is living in la la land.

The Liberal party have gone through 3 opposition leaders in 3 years. They aren't bad at knifing each other themselves. Both sides are ruthless. Both parties have leadership ballots unless the incumbant realises he/she doesn't have the numbers and doesn't contest the ballot allowing the challenger to take the reigns uncontested.

On the independants it's most likely you will all have your way and the Gillard government will be returned despite MORE people voting for liberal in Australia than the ALP.
The ALP as a single party got more primary votes than any other party. It isn't a fragmented coalition of Libs, Nats, LNP (Qld), CLP, WA Nats needing to add their votes together because none on their own can match Labor.

In any case our electoral system in the lower house doesn't work by first past the post and nor should it. Why should someone with a minority of 40% of the vote be elected if the other 60% majority dislike this candidate and prefer someone else in be it their first or second choice candidate. That's why we have preferential voting.

On two party preferred Labor has the most votes nationwide.  
Australian Labor Party      5,063,869      50.66%
Liberal/National Coalition   4,932,436     49.34%  

Out of interest the Labor also has more seats in 4 of the 6 states including the two most populus NSW and Vic. Not relevant to who wins though.

At the end of the day it is who can win or collect the majority of seats in the lower house that wins power. At the moment

Australian Labor Party      72 (73)
Liberal/National Coalition   70 (73)
Greens                            1 (1)
Independents                   3 (3)
Doubtful                          4
Total                           150 (150)

The () are the most likely seat numbers when the counting is finally finished but that's still up in the air and could change with pre-polling and postal votes which make up 15% of the total votes. Still impossible to know who will govern.

Doubtful seats:
Hasluck (WA) - Libs in front by 382 votes but 25% of the votes are pre-polling and postal votes which are yet to be counted so too close to call.

Dunkley (Vic) - Libs in front by 612 votes. Stuff in the counting had 200 Labor votes in the Libs pile. Fixed now so it's now doubtful.

Boothby (SA) - Libs in front by 663 votes. Libs sandbagged this seat (local calling of voters) so will probably hang on although it's classed as doubtful.

Denison (Tas) - ALP in front by 408 votes. Two party preferred has to be recounted given the AEC always puts ALP vs Coalition on election night. This has to be changed to ALP vs Ind. if the Independent (Andrew Wilkie) finishes ahead of the Libs and gains their preferences. At the moment only 28 of the 56 booths have been changed and where the remaining booths come from will determine the winner. North Hobart is Labor heartland whereas as Hobart city is Greens territory.

Scenarios:
If Labor loses Denison then they'll only have 72 seats compared to the Libs 73 if they hold on to their leads in the three other doubtful seats. Labor would then need the one Green MP vote (whose already agreed to support Labor) and 3 of the 4 independents to retain power. The Libs would have 73 seats and would only need 3 of the independents to gain power.

If Labor retains Denison then it'll be 73-all with Labor effectively having 74 with the Green MP. Still could go either way depending on the 3 independents.

If Labor retains Hasluck and Denison then that will effectively rule out a Coalition minority government as they'll only have 72 seats.

It's way way too early to know who will win.

MT, I must commend you on your lengthy answers. 
Please answer this questions for me;
what is the total primary vote of the ALP and of the Coalition? 
How many votes did Julia win by when she beat Rudd to allow her to become PM?

On the issue of factions. 
I must be from La la land as you say because Im positive there are no real factions in the liberal party.  
Read the liberal party constitution and tell me where it is written ANY provision for factions. The ALP constitution is wall to wall and jammed full of provision, written to solidify the needs of leading factions within the party. 
You keep talking about knifing leadership. Let's talk FACTS here. When Abbott beat Turnbull it was because of a VOTE within the members in the party, If I remember correctly Abbott won by 1 vote. 
When Gillard took over the leadership over Rudd it NEVER went to a VOTE from caucus it is now revealed that factional heavy weights made the decision.  
Now we learn more from State MP Craig Langford that once again these factions have flexed muscle he couldn't stand it any longer so he's jumped ship 3 months before a state election. 

One last question;
Name 1 truly factional men or women or group within the liberal party, dictating constitutional policy, preselection or Platform. 

Fact is MT that the ALP is a multi-headed monster without true unity that will always struggle to govern effectively.   
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Offline Penelope

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #274 on: August 26, 2010, 09:58:26 PM »
Still rambling on about the voting, or lack of, for the leader? When there is only one person challenging and the incumbent does not fight the challenge, you still have a vote do you?
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Offline Coach

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #275 on: August 26, 2010, 10:28:02 PM »
I my opinion the quicker they do away with compulsory voting the better it will be for all.

Seeing the informal vote was over 600K this election (a staggering number and a major concern IMHO) I don't think we can afford to make voting non-compulsory...

If they did that it; it may end being just you and me voting Mr Tigra  ;D

And when you think that Mr Rabbit & others are hell bent on demonising 3000 odd refugees arriving in boats who would just love to be able to vote & participate in a free democracy........

Mr Rabbit? What the eff is that about? You disgust me..... :shh
LOL

What ya laughing at mate? Careful or I will ban you for no reason :lol

Bob Brown is a top bloke. Met him at a servo once :thumbsup

Offline Owl

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #276 on: August 26, 2010, 10:31:27 PM »
I must be in la la land too Tigra, I can still see knife holes in Brendon Nelson's and Malcom Turnbull's back respectively lol its like a friggen carousel of assassins over there, but don't let a good wheel barrow load of garden fertilizer spoil a good propaganda yarn.  You read too much of Andrew Bolt I suspect.  Lemme guess, its all those faceless men eating babies and punching puppies over at Labor HQ pulling the strings.
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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #277 on: August 27, 2010, 12:22:37 AM »
I must be in la la land too Tigra, I can still see knife holes in Brendon Nelson's and Malcom Turnbull's back respectively lol its like a friggen carousel of assassins over there, but don't let a good wheel barrow load of garden fertilizer spoil a good propaganda yarn.  You read too much of Andrew Bolt I suspect.  Lemme guess, its all those faceless men eating babies and punching puppies over at Labor HQ pulling the strings.
can any of you people read.
I have NEVER written that there isn't challenges to leadership within the Liberal party. What I have written is that when there is a challenge it goes to a VOTE within the causus and the member with the most VOTES wins leadership.
FACT; VOTING didn't happen in the Gillard/Rudd fiasco. Not 1 member of the Labor caucus voted. No democracy in the ALP just factional heavyweights flexing muscle. It's more a multi-headed monster dictatorship!!

If you all are so sure that the Liberal party has true factionism please answer my question?
 *Name 1 truly factional man or woman or group within the liberal party, dictating constitutional policy,
pre-selection or Platform.
  
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Offline mightytiges

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #278 on: August 27, 2010, 03:02:29 AM »
MT, I must commend you on your lengthy answers. 
Please answer this questions for me;
what is the total primary vote of the ALP and of the Coalition? 
We do not work on a primary vote first past the post system so what each party has in primaries is irrelevant compared to the two-party preferred vote. Labor got the most primary votes in Denison but guess what they didn't win that seat. Actually the ALP got the most votes of any single party. The Coalition is made up of 5 separate parties so hardly a fair comparision to say 5 parties put together got more primary votes than one other party. If the system was based on primary votes then the game would change. Labor would form a coalition of their own with the Greens to get the most primaries in the most seats. Sorry you can't change the rules during or after the game has been played. The Libs/Nats are anti-constitutional change and now after the election they want to claim a new non-constitutional rule to decide the winner when neither side has a majority of seats. Hilarious!

How many votes did Julia win by when she beat Rudd to allow her to become PM?
There was no vote because Rudd stood down and didn't contest the leadership in a ballot. With only Gillard vying for the leadership it didn't to go to a vote. It's happened before on both sides. Both sides regularly do have leadership ballots. Keating failed to beat Hawke in a ballot when he first challenged. It took a second ballot later on before he got the top job.

On the issue of factions. 
I must be from La la land as you say because Im positive there are no real factions in the liberal party.  
Read the liberal party constitution and tell me where it is written ANY provision for factions. The ALP constitution is wall to wall and jammed full of provision, written to solidify the needs of leading factions within the party. 
You keep talking about knifing leadership. Let's talk FACTS here. When Abbott beat Turnbull it was because of a VOTE within the members in the party, If I remember correctly Abbott won by 1 vote. 
When Gillard took over the leadership over Rudd it NEVER went to a VOTE from caucus it is now revealed that factional heavy weights made the decision.  
Now we learn more from State MP Craig Langford that once again these factions have flexed muscle he couldn't stand it any longer so he's jumped ship 3 months before a state election. 
Just because it's not any constitution doesn't mean it doesn't it. There's no mention of political parties in the Australian constitution IIRC (except the  amendment relating to 1975 dismissal where nowdays a vacancy in the Senate must replaced by a person of the same political party as the one quitting). That doesn't mean political parties don't exist.

"The [Liberal] party has mainly two unorganised factions, the majority conservative right and the minority moderate left. Historically, moderates have at times formed their own parties, most notably the Australian Democrats who gave voice to what is termed small-l liberalism in Australia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_of_Australia


One last question;
Name 1 truly factional men or women or group within the liberal party, dictating constitutional policy, preselection or Platform. 
The Liberal party are famous for their preselection spats within the party itself.

"In 2003, after only two years in the federal Parliament, Peter King was challenged for his Liberal endorsement in Wentworth by Malcolm Turnbull, a wealthy merchant banker, Federal Treasurer of the Liberal Party and former head of the Australian Republican Movement. After a prolonged and very acrimonious campaign, Turnbull won Liberal endorsement for the 2004 election. King ran as an independent and received 18% of the primary vote. For running against a preselected Liberal party member, King was banned from the Liberal Party for ten years. His wife Fiona, daughter of former National Party leader Ian Sinclair, was banned for five years."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_King_%28Australian_politician%29




Anyway according to the AEC there's no doubtful seats although Antony Green on the ABC site has Brisbane as close but the Libs should win that unless there's some surprise large late swing to the ALP in the absentee, pre-poll and postal votes. So it looks it'll be

Coalition    73 .... including the WA Nationals MP who is claiming to be an independent
ALP          72
Green        1
Indep.       4 ...... Katter, Windsor, Oakeshott and Wilkie

With the Green MP siding with Labor then it's 73-all. All up to the 4 independents now to "pick" the winner  :-\
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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #279 on: August 27, 2010, 07:02:30 AM »
MT, I must commend you on your lengthy answers. 
Please answer this questions for me;
what is the total primary vote of the ALP and of the Coalition? 
We do not work on a primary vote first past the post system so what each party has in primaries is irrelevant compared to the two-party preferred vote. Labor got the most primary votes in Denison but guess what they didn't win that seat. Actually the ALP got the most votes of any single party. The Coalition is made up of 5 separate parties so hardly a fair comparision to say 5 parties put together got more primary votes than one other party. If the system was based on primary votes then the game would change. Labor would form a coalition of their own with the Greens to get the most primaries in the most seats. Sorry you can't change the rules during or after the game has been played. The Libs/Nats are anti-constitutional change and now after the election they want to claim a new non-constitutional rule to decide the winner when neither side has a majority of seats. Hilarious!

How many votes did Julia win by when she beat Rudd to allow her to become PM?
There was no vote because Rudd stood down and didn't contest the leadership in a ballot. With only Gillard vying for the leadership it didn't to go to a vote. It's happened before on both sides. Both sides regularly do have leadership ballots. Keating failed to beat Hawke in a ballot when he first challenged. It took a second ballot later on before he got the top job.

On the issue of factions. 
I must be from La la land as you say because Im positive there are no real factions in the liberal party.  
Read the liberal party constitution and tell me where it is written ANY provision for factions. The ALP constitution is wall to wall and jammed full of provision, written to solidify the needs of leading factions within the party. 
You keep talking about knifing leadership. Let's talk FACTS here. When Abbott beat Turnbull it was because of a VOTE within the members in the party, If I remember correctly Abbott won by 1 vote. 
When Gillard took over the leadership over Rudd it NEVER went to a VOTE from caucus it is now revealed that factional heavy weights made the decision.  
Now we learn more from State MP Craig Langford that once again these factions have flexed muscle he couldn't stand it any longer so he's jumped ship 3 months before a state election. 
Just because it's not any constitution doesn't mean it doesn't it. There's no mention of political parties in the Australian constitution IIRC (except the  amendment relating to 1975 dismissal where nowdays a vacancy in the Senate must replaced by a person of the same political party as the one quitting). That doesn't mean political parties don't exist.

"The [Liberal] party has mainly two unorganised factions, the majority conservative right and the minority moderate left. Historically, moderates have at times formed their own parties, most notably the Australian Democrats who gave voice to what is termed small-l liberalism in Australia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Party_of_Australia


One last question;
Name 1 truly factional men or women or group within the liberal party, dictating constitutional policy, preselection or Platform. 
The Liberal party are famous for their preselection spats within the party itself.

"In 2003, after only two years in the federal Parliament, Peter King was challenged for his Liberal endorsement in Wentworth by Malcolm Turnbull, a wealthy merchant banker, Federal Treasurer of the Liberal Party and former head of the Australian Republican Movement. After a prolonged and very acrimonious campaign, Turnbull won Liberal endorsement for the 2004 election. King ran as an independent and received 18% of the primary vote. For running against a preselected Liberal party member, King was banned from the Liberal Party for ten years. His wife Fiona, daughter of former National Party leader Ian Sinclair, was banned for five years."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_King_%28Australian_politician%29




Anyway according to the AEC there's no doubtful seats although Antony Green on the ABC site has Brisbane as close but the Libs should win that unless there's some surprise large late swing to the ALP in the absentee, pre-poll and postal votes. So it looks it'll be

Coalition    73 .... including the WA Nationals MP who is claiming to be an independent
ALP          72
Green        1
Indep.       4 ...... Katter, Windsor, Oakeshott and Wilkie

With the Green MP siding with Labor then it's 73-all. All up to the 4 independents now to "pick" the winner  :-\
thankyou MT
so in conclusion then;
There was NO VOTE when Gillard knifed RUDD. Interesting. 
There are NO ORGANISED FACTIONS in the Liberal party NOW. (there may be spats from time to time but organised factionalism with a political agenda and constitutional policy is a totally different story). In what organised faction were your examples Turnbull or King from?
Sorry MT you tried to convince me but There are no true factions. I suggest you try again.
Finally everyone knows that the coalition isn't just 1 political party but a union of party's in order to form government. And you and I know that they have more primary votes than the ALP. Fact. Now I know that the preferential system doesn't account for this but you did leave this fact out from your last post.     
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Offline cub

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #280 on: August 27, 2010, 08:56:28 AM »
I am no political Einstien, I'll be first to admit! But wouldn't we be better off doing it all again. This all seems a recipe for disaster.

Offline Owl

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #281 on: August 27, 2010, 09:44:12 AM »
I agree CUB, I think all the protest voters will pull their heads in this time around and committ.  Bob Katter should start his own party imo lol.  He has done alright sans a cadre of sycophantic PR goons guiding his every word and action.  It won't happen though, unless there is a complete block and no-one can agree to work out a govt.  Quite possible at this rate.  The issue is that the 3 ex nationals can't stand the libs and feel the nationals betrayed their constituents HOWEVER, their constituents are still essentially allied to that side of politics so any move to side with labor, despite them having policies more in line with what all three of them want ironically, could be political suicide.  To go back with the bastards they split from who have snubbed their needs would be to reneg on their moral stand and would make them look like phonies which I suspect is not something they would take lightly.  The way they are painting jug head into a corner suggests they are playing hard ball so I dunno, they might not back anyone.
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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #282 on: August 27, 2010, 11:21:19 AM »
I am no political Einstien, I'll be first to admit! But wouldn't we be better off doing it all again. This all seems a recipe for disaster.

I read during the week CUB there is 170 million reasons ($$$$) why they don't want to do it again

That's what they reckon it would cost to do it all again.

Bottom line is I don't reckon either party wants to go again because they are both terrifed of what the outcome would be and besides what happens if we got a similar result (we wouldn't but who knows). Do we keep going back until someone wins outright?

And what about Senator Stephen Fielding (Family First but his brain comes last) saying if the Labor forms a minority govt he will use his power in the senate up until 30/6/2011 to block supply because in his opinion they don't deserve to form government because they were "rejected by the people"

No wonder you've lost your Senate seat Stephen you goose
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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #283 on: August 27, 2010, 11:24:23 AM »

No wonder you've lost your Senate seat Stephen you goose
He has a nerve saying the ALP has no legitimacy when he has none either lol
 :wallywink

Offline Carvels Ring

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Re: Federal Election
« Reply #284 on: August 27, 2010, 11:45:19 AM »
keating got it right, 'Unrepresentative Swill.'