Terry Wallace: Tiger forever (AFL)

[Little Jackie]

Put this topic in a time capsule and open it after say round 12

what if by rnd 12 we are flying and cemented in the top 8 at that stage

then what will u say when the time capsule comes out?

can assure you , we wont be flying

[{X}]

we may not be flying, but u just never know

who in the afl world would have tipped the cats to win the 07 flag after their 06 season and beginning of 07

one just never knows

[Stripes]

Right or wrong we need to see our rebuilding through and sacking TW this year even if we have another year like last, would only do us harm. If you bring in another coach now they will have to suffer through this time in our development just the same as TW is right now.

See I just don't swallow that at all.
I don't know about you but I want to see a coach who is taking the team forward and rhetoric aside it's obvious that we went backwards last season. The results proved it. At the end of the day results are all I am interested in.

We painstakingly stuck with Danny Frawley for five years to avoid the 'eating our own' stigma and it landed us Wallace. if he is showing little more than Frawley why should he get that same guarantee? We may as well have kept Danny for 10 years. 4 years without a finals birth is just that, no matter how you slice it. Frawley at least took us to a prelim.

Stuff the stigma. Wallace has to get the runs on the board this season to keep the job in the fifth year as far as I am concerned. If he cannot start ecking out wins then someone else can have a crack at getting the most out of the talented list of kids we are largely accruing by default and Terry can go back to talking in the media.

I can see where you are coming from but Spud and TW were poles apart in there approaches.

Spud was after immediate success - he proved that when he continously sort to top up and traded off early draft picks. As we all know this is why we have the gap in our list in terms of players around the 23 -28 age bracket. When Spud finshed bottom in his last year of his contract it was so devestrating not only because of our position on the ladder but also because it was achieved with a list of mature players.

TW came in with the primary goal of rebuilding the club which is why he demanded the longer than normal contract length. He has attempted to clear out as many average players as he could and replace them with potential quality youth. TW has continued the process each year and with a few notable exceptions (Kingsley, Graham, MacMahon?) he has held to this goal and we are now starting to gain depth as a result.

The problem with rebuilding is that the process realistically will take over 7 years. TW has used Geelongs model as an example and I fear he may never see the fruits of his labour before he is expelled because of the lack of onfield success which is expected during this early phase of rebuilding.

I don't think we can realistically rate TW success with onfield wins. If we were to put that stipulations on his contract we would see a return to playing the more average but harder bodied and experienced players rather than grooming the youth. TW would be topping up the list in an attempt to save his hide like other Tiger Coaches have for the last 25 years. We need to take the pressure off TW in terms of win/loss and encourage him to get game time into the kids and experiment with the team structure/positioning. This will give us the most chance of long term success.

For us now it is all about the future and when we begin our run. We need to decide when we have the players and the strength of structure to stop making 'blooding the kids' the first priority and start making winning at all costs the goal. I don't think we are there yet and I think by making winning the primary goal now it will actually cause or chances of ultimate success harm.

We need to keep building up our list (good spread of player types), individual players (skill, confidence) and mostly depth (competition for spots).

Without a good base to build on any future opportunity to claim a flag with crumble.

IMHO TW should not be assessed on wins this year but more on list growth.

Stripes

[1965]

A big test for TW this week.

(and every week)

but I expect him to see out the next two years as coach.

[Smokey]

You just keep kicking goals Stripes!

 

[1980]

Whether he should continue to be the highest paid coach in the AFL is something I doubt anyone on the board agrees with.

 

Hmm....

I don't think he is the highest paid coach in the AFL

He makes a lot more than Choco, and Williams is the first name on the list to takeover. 

not sure how u know what coaches earn, but maybe terry has alot more to do, and more work to fulfill than choco

choco does not really need to "sell" and market his team in a 2 team city, whereas Terry has do this.

im sure terry has alot more in his job description than choco, and why is it we always pull in bigger crowds than port and have achieved record memberships under terry

no one knows what coaches are paid and exactly how many hrs they put in each week

Coaches get paid for results not media appearances. Hopefully Wallace will prove this year that he is worth every cent he's made.

[Mr Magic]

I can see where you are coming from but Spud and TW were poles apart in there approaches.

Spud was after immediate success - he proved that when he continously sort to top up and traded off early draft picks. As we all know this is why we have the gap in our list in terms of players around the 23 -28 age bracket. When Spud finshed bottom in his last year of his contract it was so devestrating not only because of our position on the ladder but also because it was achieved with a list of mature players.

TW came in with the primary goal of rebuilding the club which is why he demanded the longer than normal contract length. He has attempted to clear out as many average players as he could and replace them with potential quality youth. TW has continued the process each year and with a few notable exceptions (Kingsley, Graham, MacMahon?) he has held to this goal and we are now starting to gain depth as a result.

The problem with rebuilding is that the process realistically will take over 7 years. TW has used Geelongs model as an example and I fear he may never see the fruits of his labour before he is expelled because of the lack of onfield success which is expected during this early phase of rebuilding.

I don't think we can realistically rate TW success with onfield wins. If we were to put that stipulations on his contract we would see a return to playing the more average but harder bodied and experienced players rather than grooming the youth. TW would be topping up the list in an attempt to save his hide like other Tiger Coaches have for the last 25 years. We need to take the pressure off TW in terms of win/loss and encourage him to get game time into the kids and experiment with the team structure/positioning. This will give us the most chance of long term success.

For us now it is all about the future and when we begin our run. We need to decide when we have the players and the strength of structure to stop making 'blooding the kids' the first priority and start making winning at all costs the goal. I don't think we are there yet and I think by making winning the primary goal now it will actually cause or chances of ultimate success harm.

We need to keep building up our list (good spread of player types), individual players (skill, confidence) and mostly depth (competition for spots).

Without a good base to build on any future opportunity to claim a flag with crumble.

IMHO TW should not be assessed on wins this year but more on list growth.

Stripes

I think you are being very kind to Terry when comparing him with Spud so far.
Wallace seems to have adopted a 'youth policy' only since just before the 157 point drubbing of Geelong last year when Gaspar was punted.
Before that I am not convinced his 'plan' was taking us anywhere and would go so far as to suggest he wasted much of the first two years of his tenure in taking the direction he did.
No doubt in my mind he was hoping we'd sneak into the 8 in '07 with the likes of washed up vets Gaspar & Kingsley holding down KPs.

However after we lost the first 5 games of '07 and things were getting desperate, I believe he fortunately he had an epiphany.
When it was apparent the senior players couldn't take us any further(finals), Terry got tough. He started to turn up the heat.
Fair enough it was about time, well overdue IMO.

In Wallace's 1st season he said publicly that unlike the Dawks we weren't going for a youth policy because we wanted to reward our senior players by playing finals footy ASAP. Rebuilding completely ala the Hawks was not the objective Wallace because he didn't want 'to bottom out' and was following the Geelong model. Whatever that means. When you win a wooden spoon it makes comments like that seem foolish:-\

These initial 'plans' are a pretty clear indication that he overrated the list and his coaching abilities.
Sure he trimmed off some dead wood from the fringes but he also brought some back with him.
I don't think he made the tough decisions required on the core of this team early enough and TBH up until this point has still made few genuinely hard decisions. Most have been retirements.

terry was just as interested in getting us to the finals as quickly as possible just as Frawley did before him. The only key difference is that we held onto most of our first round draft picks. At least we did in 2004. Only 3 picks in 2005 was a joke and that draft has been a shocker so far. 2006 we downgraded for Polak which has been moderately successful.

Personally when he was signed I would have thought he was given 3 years to rebuild the list and 5 for a genuine shot at the title but as it's gone along it seems to have evolved into a 5 year rebuild. This is largely because much of the first two years was wasted with finishes in 9th & 10th place for the reasons mentioned above. Low finishes would have been fine in years 1 & 2 during a rebuild but not in years 3 & 4.

I'll give terry credit that he at least saw the error of his ways and when things got desperate last season he bit the bullet and changed his 'plan'.
Still I just worry that he's really just shifting the goal posts along the way with his quick wit and slick voice to keep supporters like yourself happy.

I do agree that he needs to get the list showing considerable improvement this year and with virtually a full list to choose from(unlike last year) he needs to win plenty of games as well.

We spent a lot of money on this guy because we no doubt believed(hoped) his 'plan' would bring ultimate success and that's why we gave him 5 years.
He is under the pump IMO because that 'plan' he initially had in place has changed and that makes him vulnerable.

I am happy with some of the kids we are getting(largely by default) but I am not convinced Wallace is the best we can do as coach.
If he does not get results out of the list this season and we continue to wallow at the bottom, then someone else can have a crack.

No guarantees for Terry Wallace.
No guarantees about the future.
He knows we need to start winning and we need to start winning now.

[Stripes]

Great post Mr Magic 

Much of what you articulated made a lot of sense. 

I agree that TW let his ego get in the way particularly during his first season at the helm. He did this on the back of renewed enthusiasm and motivation from our more senior players. Unfortunately all this achieved, as you rightly stated, was the same ultimately ladder results that we seemed to have stalled on for years.

In retrospect, TW did the club and himself no favours by motivating the team and coaching the existing players as well as he did in the first year of his tenure. It would have been better in many ways to leave Spud at the reins for another year, use the draft picks wisely and then bring in another coach but then again hindsight is a wonderful thing is it not. 

Spud did us no favours. He coached from the heart but ultimately he did nothing but harm to our great club. In fact I would argue that our agonisingly small stint in the finals in 2001 and Spud's (and the other administrators at the time) decisions on the back of this, has set us back potentially 10 years on where we could have been. Comparing TW to Spud IMO is certainly doing TW no favours. 

TW always openly stated that he was going to follow the Geelong model and gather a group of talented young players together around a similiar age and breed our own stars. Geelong didn't need to 'bottom out' like Hawthorn or as we ultimately have done because, while they were rebuilding, they still had the more senior players at the club to compete. We didn't and still don't in many instances.

We have some quality if somewhat inconsistant stars on our list. Many of these have been injury riddled over the last two years most notably Browny and Simmonds. These stars actually allowed us to be semi-competitive and even appear a stronger team than the reality during the first two seasons of TW contract but when these players were injuried the truth soon became apparent. We don't have the depth plain and simple. Below the top players we have nothing but evolving youth. We have no mid-age and ability players. Whose fault is that? Not TW, you can blame him for any players recruited to the side in the last 3 years but the whole in the list was inherited.

Unlike Geelong we had no depth at all so unlike Geelong when injuries, retirements and poor form struck our senior players we had no one to step up. Until this void can be filled in 2 -5 years we are forced to rely upon our aging stars and the few young players that advance ahead of schedule.

The worst thing is because our younger talented players have little to no support from above they have to absorb the tags, defenders and general responsibility that in other teams would have been taken by the older players, so this makes our younger players appear to be underpreforming when in reality they are far from.

Harping back on the Geelong model, the reason TW did not attempt to blood the youth immediately was because the Cats had the luxury of allowing their 18-20 years olds time to play together in the reserves for years to gain the size, skills, confidence and awareness of each others game before they were elevated because they still had depth to their list. Last year it became a necessity to elevate players many before they were ready. It was also the reason why we went so poorly.


TW has made mistakes, warranted but he has always recruited and sought to strengthen our list with talented youth. This is not a recent phenomenia but I grant you giving them more game time is. TW did not start on this tack last year, he has been recruiting and rebuilding from the moment he began.

I don't believe he has 'shifted the goal posts' to keep supporters like me  happy. In fact he was too honest at the beginning of last year when he set mentioned the timeframe where he believed we were most likely to begin being successful and when were potentially could start to have prolonged success. Many in the media and supporters crutified him for this when he could have jsut remained quiet and continously did exactly as you said, shift the targets each year. He was realistic and he was up front which he has done again in this article and all he as recieved for it is sceptism and scorn. Ironic really.

I agree that there is no garrentees about our future success or even if TW will last out the year but I think you can almost garrentee that what TW has done, and is doing, will give us some hope, some chance of success and ulimately some restored pride in the club. Something we have been lacking for far too long.

TW is building up our list but without the support above it is unrealistic to expect success in the short term and I think it is unfair to assess TW contract and ability as a coach on our preformance this year.

As supporters we have a history of being impatient but if we are to not be our own worst enemy and derail all the hard work we have done over the last few years, then wait some more we must. For I don't believe we will be a successful club and even challenge for the finals consistently for 2/3 years...and that's being optomistic and that is not TW fault plain and simple.

Stripes

[HKTiger]

Some really good posts in this thread.

Can I throw up a scenario.

Say you're running a business and it's losing $2 million dollars a year.  What do you do ?  Sack everyone and lose all your existing customers, or make sure you keep your exisiting customers and try and change your business model little by little so that you can continue to make money and trade yourself out of trouble.

This 3 later look back at TW only looks at the list and rarely if ever takes into account all the events at the time of 2004/05.  We had just lost $2 million.  We were nearly $5 mill in debt.  Our business plan had to be approved by the AFL.  I've always viewed year one and two of TW's tenure of being slightly (maybe a lot) hamstrung by that financial legacy and the board, CEO and TW knowing taht tehy needed to get the club fiscally secure.  In 2005 we couldn't have done the bigger clean out for a number of reasons.  We needed to play well to get the club profitable (break even in the end).  Had we won the wooden spoon again in 2005 with the financial loss that would have gone with that at that time, then we would be the financial basket case club that the Dees, North etc are.  I believe that the  board and SW decided that we needed some interim success and get some financial stability.  This in my mind has curtailed TW's long term aim.

Some of you guys call it spin.  i just see TW selling the club.  By helping with that, TW helsp get a profitable club that can finally get him the support staff he knows he needs.  Finally at the start of year four our footy dept spend is getting close to competitive to the rest of the AFL.  He's got development coaches (I rate McRae) he's got a list manager and recruiting head and recruiters.  He/we didn't have those in 2004/05.  On the recruiting front it was just Miller and FJ for the last few weeks of 2005 on pretty much a handshake.

I've never heard TW complain or whinge about this.  Yet all of the above has definitely hindered his ability to execute to a preferred (more drastic) plan.

Given a profitable club, with the ability to invest in the areas that board and TW agree are needed, I believe that TW deserves to be judged on 2008 and 2009 alone.  If, in these two years, we show improvement in playing style, commitment and results I would extend TW's contract.

When we review history I feel you must review all the elements in their context.  Just my opinion.

[Mr Magic]

I don't believe he has 'shifted the goal posts' to keep supporters like me  happy. In fact he was too honest at the beginning of last year when he set mentioned the timeframe where he believed we were most likely to begin being successful and when were potentially could start to have prolonged success. Many in the media and supporters crutified him for this when he could have jsut remained quiet and continously did exactly as you said, shift the targets each year. He was realistic and he was up front which he has done again in this article and all he as recieved for it is sceptism and scorn. Ironic really.

I will give Terry credit for that, perhaps he had started his youth policy a few weeks earlier but the Kingsley recruitment was in contrast with what he was saying as was keeping Gas for another year. That happens too much. He likes a bob each way does Terry.
He was hung, drawn and quartered for being a little too honest but I think he mainly copped the grief because supporters largely thought(probably unrealistically) things were on track for finals in '08 on the back of 9th in 2006. Does '9th with a bullet' ring any bells?
Terry's '2011' announcement blew any finals hopes largely out of the water on the verge of the coming season with the media and supporters, who probably thought success was more imminent than his frank projections indicated. I think it rubbed a few senior players too who probably were expecting finals action after the comment earlier about owing them.
There have been a few too many mixed messages from Wallace I am afraid to fully believe that his blueprint for success is on schedule and I think that's primarily where I have lost some of the faith. Not all mind you but a lot of it.
The honeymoon is over and Wallace has got to NOT ONLY get improvement out of the kids and win games to keep his job.
I'll be very happy if he sticks to the youth policy now that he has introduced it but he needs to be consistant which hasn't been a strength.
That will start with not playing Tiva this weekend.

[{X}]

whats with all the essays, only if i had time to read them all. will try on the w/e if i have time

[Stripes]

I don't believe he has 'shifted the goal posts' to keep supporters like me  happy. In fact he was too honest at the beginning of last year when he set mentioned the timeframe where he believed we were most likely to begin being successful and when were potentially could start to have prolonged success. Many in the media and supporters crutified him for this when he could have jsut remained quiet and continously did exactly as you said, shift the targets each year. He was realistic and he was up front which he has done again in this article and all he as recieved for it is sceptism and scorn. Ironic really.

I will give Terry credit for that, perhaps he had started his youth policy a few weeks earlier but the Kingsley recruitment was in contrast with what he was saying as was keeping Gas for another year. That happens too much. He likes a bob each way does Terry.
He was hung, drawn and quartered for being a little too honest but I think he mainly copped the grief because supporters largely thought(probably unrealistically) things were on track for finals in '08 on the back of 9th in 2006. Does '9th with a bullet' ring any bells?
Terry's '2011' announcement blew any finals hopes largely out of the water on the verge of the coming season with the media and supporters, who probably thought success was more imminent than his frank projections indicated. I think it rubbed a few senior players too who probably were expecting finals action after the comment earlier about owing them.
There have been a few too many mixed messages from Wallace I am afraid to fully believe that his blueprint for success is on schedule and I think that's primarily where I have lost some of the faith. Not all mind you but a lot of it.
The honeymoon is over and Wallace has got to NOT ONLY get improvement out of the kids and win games to keep his job.
I'll be very happy if he sticks to the youth policy now that he has introduced it but he needs to be consistant which hasn't been a strength.
That will start with not playing Tiva this weekend.

I think Tiv will be looked at but Hyde will be selected over Edwards.

Am I happy about it - no, I would much prefer to see Polo (if fit) or even Morton (if he has the engine) but I think TW is looking to replace Johnson with experience. While he is just an honest toiler while  Edwards and the like are potential great players they are still developing and TW has got the message this year, unfortunately , from the media and some impatient supporters - win some game this year or the pressure will be well and truly on you!

Disappointing really because if he did not have this scrutany (sp?) he would continue playing the kids for the future rather than just looking to win for the present. Who can blame him though, he needs to appease the public or he will never get another opportunity to continue to rebuild.

That is why we need to support TW because love or loath him if he feels that his job is on the line then he will start coaching for the present which may give us some short term gain but will only serve to delay the rebuilding process. He needs to be allowed to see out his plan.

Unfortunately with the Media scrutiny I think he feels he has no other choice so expect less young players to be given game time in the first half of the year and more players like Hyde getting more than their fair share.

Edit - I just saw one-eyes official team and Tiv has been excluded by Hyde has been included so that leads me to think that TW is keeping to his plan but could also mean he, like you said, is having a bid each way.

whatever the reason I'm just happy he chose Polo over Tiv. 

Stripes

[blaisee]

I feel that 2008 shouldnt just be about winning and losing. Its about seeing which players are getting games, is he picking the right players, will young guys like Cotchin and Rance get some games and much needed experience, will he continue to play young players like Edwards and Conners. Can he finally get Tambling to lift, can he set up Deledio to become a 25 to 30 possession a game player predominantly in the midfield. If he does those things then we could say hes on the right track. Can he keep our losses to be "honorable losses" without major blowouts.

Also whoever coaches Richmond going forward should understand that with 2 new clubs coming into the comp, early picks are going to be like hens teeth. Does Wallace have the balls to trade a 30 year old star like Brown or a 26 year old half back like Chris Newman and get really crank up our drafting efforts in November 2008. Does he have to wherewithall to delist blokes who arent going to make it or have been mid rangers for a long time. Its a complicated question, and its not just about wins or losses.

top post ramps

[blaisee]

Put this topic in a time capsule and open it after say round 12

hehehe right on kew

just like last year right

[blaisee]

Whether he should continue to be the highest paid coach in the AFL is something I doubt anyone on the board agrees with.

 

Hmm....

I don't think he is the highest paid coach in the AFL

what a joke